The new krth

[ChannelFlipper]

>>How 'bout "Junk Food Junkie" Larry Groce? Has KRTH EVER played that?<<

>>>>I hope not. I would bet that more than half the cume of KRTH has never heard of it, and the other half does not want to ever hear it again. Novelty songs have a very short shelf life.<<<<

Yep. God forbid that we play a song that is something other than the 500 song playlist that is actually thoughtfully written, makes a point, and entertains - may even just put a smile on someone's face - like it did to me the first time I heard it.

Hey, I have an idea: Since 1800 songs = bad and 700 songs = good, why not push the limit and go for 500? Do I hear 400? 350? After all, less is more and the audience doesn't know 1800 from 700 anyway. Can I get 300? Going, Going....Yes!! Sold to Mr. Coffey! Way to amp up those ratings while you simultaneously destroy a format! Progress! Give the people what they want!

Ok, I've made my point. Back to my personal list on the Ipod. Again, no local radio on the listening menu for today. I am no longer a slave to David's lists. Freedom - you can't put a price on it...

 

[TheBigA]

Ok, I've made my point. Back to my personal list on the Ipod. Again, no local radio on the listening menu for today. I am no longer a slave to David's lists. Freedom - you can't put a price on it...

If you don't listen, what's your point? We are never going to get you to listen, no matter how many songs we play. No number of songs will ever be enough to replace the ipod. So it really doesn't matter.

 

[Art Landing]

Interesting debate - here's an angle that today's programmers might find scary.

Back in the days before payola there were DJ's like Andy Mansfield and Ira Cook. Thery played the popular tunes of the day but also had a feel for music generally. Starling would sometimes take two minutes building up a narrative to a song from twenty years before, Cook would play "something you didn't expect to hear" as asurprise. Both personalities (one on KFI and the other on KABC ) dominated their time slots. Mansfield's Turn Back the Clock" (done in tandem with wife Virginia Mansfield) was even picked up by Armed Services Radio.

These guys I don't think were ever handed a playlist -would have been insuilted at the idea. They did their own! What a novel idea!. Think it would work today?

 

[TheBigA]

Interesting debate - here's an angle that today's programmers might find scary.

These guys I don't think were ever handed a playlist -would have been insuilted at the idea. They did their own! What a novel idea!. Think it would work today?

There are shows and there are stations. You're talking about shows. People still do shows now. They tend to be syndicated or on public radio. But in the 1970s, when radio expanded beyond AM to FM, and then expanded again with Docket 80-90, you got STATION programming, rather than shows. So for the past 40 or so years, we program the station. So any time you tune in, you get the same basic thing. Would it work today? Sure if someone was willing to take a chance, find his own sponsors, sell the concept to a syndicator, or put it on the internet. Maybe as a podcast. It's ultimately about the pitch. Imagine hearing the pitch for Prairie Home Companion. Would you have bought that concept?

 

[davideduardo]

Interesting debate - here's an angle that today's programmers might find scary.
These guys I don't think were ever handed a playlist -would have been insuilted at the idea. They did their own! What a novel idea!. Think it would work today?

No, it wouldn't. And we have seen an example of why... fully 40 years ago.

Progressive / Freeform Rock. Jocks picked the songs. Deep cuts. Off the wall things. Along came Lee Abrams and his Superstars "technification" of album rock. With only a few exceptions, those Superstars stations not only beat the progressive stations, they drove most out of the format (or into a copy of the Superstars method).

We have thousands of ways to find the music mix we want. We don't have to listen to someone telling us what music we should want. It does not work that way any more, as music discovery is done differently today, whether by Millenials or Gen X.

 

[CTListener]

Going up against a batch of Clear Channel stations in markets like San Francisco and Dallas with "identical" classic hits formats. They insisted on a 1800 song list and I went with 700 to 800. They left the format in all those markets.

Clear Channel stations with 1,800-song playlists? Really? How long ago was this? It couldn't have been during the transition from freeform in the mid-'70s because there was no Clear Channel then, and besides, you said "classic hits," not "classic rock." Do you recall, off the top of your head, a few songs that these Clear Channel stations were playing at least once every couple of weeks that you weren't?

 

[Unregistered]

No, it wouldn't. And we have seen an example of why... fully 40 years ago.

Progressive / Freeform Rock. Jocks picked the songs. Deep cuts. Off the wall things. Along came Lee Abrams and his Superstars "technification" of album rock. With only a few exceptions, those Superstars stations not only beat the progressive stations, they drove most out of the format (or into a copy of the Superstars method).

We have thousands of ways to find the music mix we want. We don't have to listen to someone telling us what music we should want. It does not work that way any more, as music discovery is done differently today, whether by Millenials or Gen X.

I beg to differ. People usually like the same music their friends like and they use radio to find out what their friends like. Now, of course, you can share playlists on Spotify and I assume you can do that with Pandora and the other streaming services. But that still does not spell out what the masses think is musically cool...only radio can do that effectively.

 

[davideduardo]

Clear Channel stations with 1,800-song playlists? Really? How long ago was this?

2005-2009.

Do you recall, off the top of your head, a few songs that these Clear Channel stations were playing at least once every couple of weeks that you weren't?

I can recall many, many of them. You would likely not recognize them.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

If you don't listen, what's your point? We are never going to get you to listen, no matter how many songs we play. No number of songs will ever be enough to replace the ipod. So it really doesn't matter.

That IS the point. I grew up with radio, love(d) radio - understood from a young age that good radio is probably even harder to do than good TV. Radio, done right, is a tremendous source of entertainment and is most importantly, (call me crazy, I know)... FUN! Something you actually look forward to doing.


Any business that fails to invest in its own product eventually gets beaten out by somebody who will. This is exactly what is happening to over the air radio today. But David will be long retired when the chickens come home to roost and all we have is a once thriving medium that is a shadow of its own former glory. What we have now across the various formats is the race to the lowest common denominator - the more mind-numbing, repetitive and insulting to the intelligence of the listener, the better. Why? Because that's where the ratings are! No matter what the format is, radio takes the subject and dumbs it down. Whether it is talk, rock, chr, oldies. They are not interested in the quality of the product they are destroying because that is a long-term issue, and the radio industry only cares about it's next ratings book and its next bond payment.

I WANT to be able to tune into intelligent local radio. Here in LA/Hollywood, the most entertainment driven city possibly on the planet, that is (tragically) impossible due to personalities that aren't allowed to have any and playlists driven by the computer. Radio drove me away. I would love to come back, really. But since the David E.'s of the world know how to boil everything down to a list that can fit one two sheets of paper and get huge ratings doing it, that is impossible. David can crow about all of the station's he has taken from worst to first, what he can't tell you is how many people he and his kind have driven away from the business entirely. I am one of them. There are thousands if not millions of others. The business cannot make advertising money by selling their commercials to us because we are not there. And I will remind again, yes I am comfortably within the money demos. In short, we others will get what we want, it just won't be from local radio. And our numbers are growing every day.

 

[TheBigA]

Any business that fails to invest in its own product eventually gets beaten out by somebody who will. This is exactly what is happening to over the air radio today.

Sorry, but nobody is spending as much money on its product as OTA radio. Nobody. The fact that I still have a job is proof of that. I'm here to tell you that any of the big radio companies spend more on air talent and staff than Pandora and all other internet radio services put together. You want to see radio done on the cheep? Go see an internet station. Radio companies spend lots of money developing new formats, new shows, new services, new platforms, and new ways to enjoy radio. Your personal taste has outgrown radio. That's your situation. So don't blame radio for a natural process you're going through. It happens to lots of people.

 

[CTListener]

2005-2009.



I can recall many, many of them. You would likely not recognize them.

Try me. Although the last time I pressed you for specifics like this, the songs were all in Spanish. I'm assuming these CC stations were English-language classic hits.

 

[davideduardo]

Try me. Although the last time I pressed you for specifics like this, the songs were all in Spanish. I'm assuming these CC stations were English-language classic hits.

They were classic hits, in Spanish.

 

[davideduardo]

But David will be long retired when the chickens come home to roost and all we have is a once thriving medium that is a shadow of its own former glory.

I've been doing "this" for the last 55 years, and much of what the good radio companies do today follows the same quality model that has existed consistently during those five and a half decades.

What we have now across the various formats is the race to the lowest common denominator - the more mind-numbing, repetitive and insulting to the intelligence of the listener, the better. Why? Because that's where the ratings are! No matter what the format is, radio takes the subject and dumbs it down.

Stations have been chasing ratings since the late 20's. All media are ratings or consumption driven. Active streams, AQH listeners, viewers, readers, impressions. And they all change according to changing tastes and demographics. What has been the greatest force of change is the expansion of pipes. Now everyone who wants can use a pull model and call on what they want to hear when they want to hear it. This dramatically effects any push model medium, making them unable to deliver the specificity of content than new media can.

This is not a "dumbing down" but a reaction to change. The press of the day amply skewered radio in the early 50's for "dumbing down" by eliminating network shows, playing (ugh) recorded music all day and adding jabbering disk jockeys to the programming. Not bad, not dumb, just different.

Whether it is talk, rock, chr, oldies. They are not interested in the quality of the product they are destroying because that is a long-term issue, and the radio industry only cares about it's next ratings book and its next bond payment.

But it is about the product. Only with desirable product do you get ratings and ad revenue and advertiser results. But may people believe that the "local radio" concept has expired, that syndication, voice tracking and other technology advances offer the chance of doing better radio for today's lsteners.

I WANT to be able to tune into intelligent local radio. Here in LA/Hollywood, the most entertainment driven city possibly on the planet, that is (tragically) impossible due to personalities that aren't allowed to have any and playlists driven by the computer.

A computer only makes lists. It takes listener input (research) and intelligent decisions to create a music log using the computer as a tool that is essentially the card file we used in the 60's and 70's. The computer drives nothing.

But since the David E.'s of the world know how to boil everything down to a list that can fit one two sheets of paper and get huge ratings doing it, that is impossible. David can crow about all of the station's he has taken from worst to first, what he can't tell you is how many people he and his kind have driven away from the business entirely.

I have not deviated from the basic model of radio I used at the first station I owned 50 years ago. However, technology allows us to do things I only dreamed of doing then. I was burdened by the expense of having to have staff at the transmitter, but technology allows reliable redundant operation with no babysitters. I would have given anything to have my best people on the air on weekends or in overnights, but the technology for voice tracking was so primitive it was not feasible. I would have liked a computer or two to better rotate the songs and avoid repeat patterns, but back in '64 the most advanced office equipment I had was a Xerox copier.

And that first station, when it had a jock opening, had a line of applicants that was over a block long.

So don't confuse the application of technology to "driving people away".

There are thousands if not millions of others. The business cannot make advertising money by selling their commercials to us because we are not there.

The changes recently are due to declining time spent listening,not to abandonment of radio. In fact, taking into account population growth, use of radio has increased. Indexed to population, radio users have declined by only 2% to 3%. And the TSL declines are due to the wealth of new media and the emergence of the pull model of custom streams and podcasts... not due to radio programming.

And I will remind again, yes I am comfortably within the money demos. In short, we others will get what we want, it just won't be from local radio. And our numbers are growing every day.

That is why OTA radio is moving into new media. iHeart radio and it's equivalents at several large companies... like Uforia for Hispanics... are moving into the new media space with new channels, new deliver options and new content..

 

[davideduardo]

It couldn't have been during the transition from freeform in the mid-'70s because there was no Clear Channel then

IIRC, Clear bought its first station in '74 and clear channel WOAI in '65 giving rise to the name of the company.

 

[oldies76]

Hey, I have an idea: Since 1800 songs = bad and 700 songs = good, why not push the limit and go for 500? Do I hear 400? 350? After all, less is more and the audience doesn't know 1800 from 700 anyway. Can I get 300? Going, Going....Yes!! Sold to Mr. Coffey! Way to amp up those ratings while you simultaneously destroy a format!

Do you really mean Mr. Thomas? Because right now, I'd take Mr. Coffey's presentation over Mr. Thomas any day of the week!

But nothing will ever surpass the magic and freedoms that Bob Hamilton provided on K-Earth 101, oh so long ago!!

Someday radio will wake up and realize the mistakes it's been making these past few years.
Except for a few oldies AM holdouts and some really good small town stations, radio is in serious decline.

 

[CTListener]

They were classic hits, in Spanish.

Got me again. But why would big-market stations owned by a big-time radio company make the mistake of going with an unwieldy 1,800-song playlist in the first place? Were programmers of Spanish-language classic hits stations totally ignorant of what had been working for their English-language counterparts all over the country? I mean, even Jack-type "variety hits" stations weren't playing 1,800 songs.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Channel Flipper, THAT was Radio Forum Porn, Dude!! Thank You so much, KF

 

[davideduardo]

Got me again. But why would big-market stations owned by a big-time radio company make the mistake of going with an unwieldy 1,800-song playlist in the first place? Were programmers of Spanish-language classic hits stations totally ignorant of what had been working for their English-language counterparts all over the country? I mean, even Jack-type "variety hits" stations weren't playing 1,800 songs.

I think Clear bought into some kind of "Hispanics like more songs" BS from a programmer. They did not do the research, or they would have found that library size by format is pretty much the same everywhere.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Channel Flipper, THAT was Radio Forum Porn, Dude!! Thank You so much, KF

Thanks, Glad you liked it. I have to say though, as much as I believe every word, I have to admit that TheBigA has identified a large part of the problem when he says:

Your personal taste has outgrown radio. That's your situation. So don't blame radio for a natural process you're going through. It happens to lots of people.

Also I must say, If I owned a station and my goal was to maximize profit, I would hire David E. and let him test and computer list program the thing all day long. Contrary to what my posts might sound like, I have a lot of respect for what David has done - study the markets, find out what works, and replicate that success relentlessly - even if I personally find the results to be quite nauseating. On the other hand, If my goal was to put what I would call a "quality station" on the air (which by definition would mean I am forgoing the profit motive), David and his lists would never be admitted onto the premises (Well, David could come and hang out, but not his lists!) I have my own lists and I would include almost as many genres as David's list has songs.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Do you really mean Mr. Thomas? Because right now, I'd take Mr. Coffey's presentation over Mr. Thomas any day of the week!

But nothing will ever surpass the magic and freedoms that Bob Hamilton provided on K-Earth 101, oh so long ago!!

Someday radio will wake up and realize the mistakes it's been making these past few years.
Except for a few oldies AM holdouts and some really good small town stations, radio is in serious decline.

I agree that there is really no difference in beating "My Girl" like a dead horse and doing the same to "Hotel California", only the age of the demo you are insulting.

Gotta agree with the Bob Hamilton era of K-Earth. If K-Earth is a "legendary" station, it's only because he made it so.