One reason why even HD FM will fail in the marketplace.

[rbrucecarter5]

One of the primary advantages of HD FM is the sub channels. We have a dual frequency station in Houston that plays the same format on analog and HD-1 from two different directions - and has 80's centric programming on one HD-2 and oldies on the other HD-2. There are listeners like myself who do not care anything about the analog / HD-1 format, my car presets are ONLY on the HD-2's. So it is really easy for me to know when there is an outtage. The 80's centric channel has been gone for two weeks, the oldies for two days. So I have two completely blank channels on my radio presets.

Until and unless broadcasters treat HD-2 stations like what they are - a separate format for an entirely separate audience - and devote the same time and energy to keeping them reliable as they do their analog and HD-1 channel, HD radio's main advantage - HD-2 (and up) will be an UNREALIZED advantage, and HD radio perceived as unreliable. If a station's main channel were to be blank for 2 days - let alone 2 weeks - the audience would be long gone and would not come back. More listeners to streaming, Pandora, satellite, or other stations. Ratings would plummet, advertising revenue cease, and the station go silent forever. So it will be with HD radio if stations don't get their act together. A digital version of their analog signal is not compelling even to listeners of that format, and certainly isn't if listeners don't care about the analog / HD-1 format. It takes a really good audio system to hear any difference between analog and HD FM, and most people accustomed to earbud iPod audio won't notice the difference.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Back on - maybe the good folks at that station read this board. My point still stands, though. HD-2 will never carry the day as something to be taken seriously as long as it isn't dependable. That includes dropouts to dead silence, especially when a driver passes by tuned to a station 10.4 to 11.0 MHz under the HD station.

 

[TheBigA]

Until and unless broadcasters treat HD-2 stations like what they are - a separate format for an entirely separate audience - and devote the same time and energy to keeping them reliable as they do their analog and HD-1 channel, HD radio's main advantage - HD-2 (and up) will be an UNREALIZED advantage, and HD radio perceived as unreliable.

This may surprise you, but there ARE markets where stations run separate formats on their HD, and they DO maintain them fairly well, and they STILL fail to attract an audience.

As I've been saying here for years, the main problem HD has is the need for users to buy new radios, and people don't buy radios any more. That means ANY radio, including satellite or internet radios. They listen to Pandora on their computers, and they listen to Sirius in their cars on radios that were included as standard equipment. Unless HD is included as standard equipment, no one will sample it, regardless of format, programming, technical quality, reliability, or ANY excuse you can come up with.

 

[landtuna]

As I've been saying here for years, the main problem HD has is the need for users to buy new radios, and people don't buy radios any more. That means ANY radio, including satellite or internet radios. They listen to Pandora on their computers, and they listen to Sirius in their cars on radios that were included as standard equipment. Unless HD is included as standard equipment, no one will sample it, regardless of format, programming, technical quality, reliability, or ANY excuse you can come up with.

People may not buy standalone radios any longer but they do buy cars and more and more are coming with multi-function radios including HD. So long as my local market retains the two HD-2 favorites I like to listen to I will buy my next cars with HD radio. I could care less if they also come with XM/Sirius or Pandora as I don't listen to those two services at all (even though my current car has sat radio).

HD radio is a niche product but then radio itself is also niche to a degree. Recent statistics have told us that radio listening is almost as popular in vehicles as in the home and both account for a major listening population. So long as that is true there is an audience to be had even though it may never predominate. But then the same is true of good old AM too, isn't it?

Neither AM nor analog FM give me the product I want to hear. Only digital FM does, so that is what I listen to exclusively.

I like it. I love it. I want some more of it. (Paraphrasing some old Country music)

 

[Wimmmex]

My point still stands, though. HD-2 will never carry the day

I don't think it was ever supposed to "carry the day"...

 

[KB1OKL]

This may surprise you, but there ARE markets where stations run separate formats on their HD, and they DO maintain them fairly well, and they STILL fail to attract an audience.

As I've been saying here for years, the main problem HD has is the need for users to buy new radios, and people don't buy radios any more. That means ANY radio, including satellite or internet radios. They listen to Pandora on their computers, and they listen to Sirius in their cars on radios that were included as standard equipment. Unless HD is included as standard equipment, no one will sample it, regardless of format, programming, technical quality, reliability, or ANY excuse you can come up with.

The main problem with HD has been and will continue to be that it is extremely difficult to lock and maintain the signal on any receiver (any receiver because it is not the receiver's fault, it is the piss poor design of HD itself). Unless you have an exceptional antenna and receiver, exceptionally flat terrain and/or exceptional conditions it's a no go. Any one who was going to investigate it has already done so years ago, now all there are are stragglers who try it and of course they then realize why it failed so completely, it just doesn't compete with analog in any dimension.

 

[KB1OKL]

I don't think it was ever supposed to "carry the day"...

Carry the day? It can't even carry the signal.

 

[TheBigA]

The main problem with HD has been and will continue to be that it is extremely difficult to lock and maintain the signal on any receiver

In order to have that problem, a person needs to first BUY A RECEIVER, and as I've said, THAT is the primary problem. Quality isn't the issue. Multiplex stereo wasn't always easy to lock in either. But a consumer didn't know that until he actually had the receiver in his house.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

There were supposed to be the following advantages for FM - with the promise and the reality:

(1) Better sound. While this is true for FM stations with HD-1 only, if they carry one or more subchannels the quality erodes rapidly. HD-1 with HD-2 is only on a par with analog, with only the frequency response better. It is a moot point, because it takes an exception sound system and listening environment - not to mention good quality at the transmitting station - to realize the improvement. The trouble is, in today's earbud and table radio society - people no longer have ears for true "High fidelity"". Their ears are accustomed to MP3 players and CD quality (96 dB signal to noise limit). The concept of a 120 dB signal to noise listening experience is now decades ago.

(2) HD-2. This was supposed to be "the stations between the stations" - doubling or more the listening choices in the environment. It quickly became the refuge of unwanted or old stations formats. The listeners to those formats do not care anything at all about the primary station format - so they are truly serving a different audience than the analog / HD-1, and expect a reliable listening experience, not one punctuated by complete audio dropouts. In the case of Houston's KSBJ and KRBE - the radio changing to the station's main format is unacceptable because I have no interest whatsover. A lot of stations treat their HD-2 listeners with contempt, I suppose they are waiting for them to "return to their senses" and come back to the fold of listeners who want the "real" station. That won't happened. Also - the decision to put sidebands on adjacent channels was a poor one, and nobody thought about the expanded IF image from nearby radios, HD or not. 10.6 and 10.8 MHz protection used to be enough. HD requires 10.4 to 11.0 MHz protection, which doesn't exist in the vast majority of metro areas. So a radio as far as 100 away can cause HD to go down - main HD-1 and all HD-2 up. More unreliabilitiy for HD, and a pain in the posterior to listen to a radio station that cuts completely out when somebody pulls up beside you listening to a station 10.4 to 11.0 MHz under the HD station you are listening to. HD-1 has a graceful degradation scheme, but HD-2 and up simply drop to silence.

(3) 5.1 surround. Remember this promise? I haven't heard any more about it. Where is our surround sound?

And if you add AM promises to the mix:

(4) AM will sound like FM. Uh - NO!!! Not even to untrained ears. AM HD sounds awful if you are listening to music. Audio fatigue in the ear, sounds like streaming audio over dial-up, strangely frequency shifted overtones. You can get away with it for talk radio, but for music. NO. Bring back streaming on a 56k modem, because it sounds better than HD AM music.

(5) Need I even mention the miserable reliability of AM? If you are driving on almost any highway or street in the nation, you have powerlines beside you. Powerlines distort the field of the signal - that is if they aren't putting out so much interference you lose lock anyway. AM HD doesn't work in the presence of any interference, whether it is coming from power lines, flourescents, or other stations. Which means nighttime is a train wreck for AM HD.

More broken promises than healthcare reform. But of all the advantages, the one that prompted me to buy HD radios was the HD-2's. I put up with dropouts because I am used to getting the short end of the stick - broadcast format wise. There isn't much difference to me whether the signal drops out because of HD issues, or whether it is analog and 300 miles away. It is about the music, and if I get the music I want I am happy enough. But I've eaten static for decades for the privilege of hearing the music I want rather than the music someone wants me to like. A temporary blackout of HD-2 is only marginally more annoying than a deep fade on a 300 mile FM signal. I seriously doubt the average consumer would put up with either.

 

[TheBigA]

There were supposed to be the following advantages for FM - with the promise and the reality:

Nobody cares. Nobody is keeping a score card. The ONLY thing that matters is if HD is standard equipment, no extra charge. Quality isn't the issue. Content isn't the issue. Surround sound isn't the issue. Reliability isn't the issue.

Put HD on a radio I already own, at no extra charge, and maybe I'll sample it. Otherwise, none of the other stuff matters. If you don't believe me, ask your moms or your wives. They just don't care.

 

[KB1OKL]

And if you add AM promises to the mix:

(4) AM will sound like FM. Uh - NO!!! Not even to untrained ears. AM HD sounds awful if you are listening to music. Audio fatigue in the ear, sounds like streaming audio over dial-up, strangely frequency shifted overtones. You can get away with it for talk radio, but for music. NO. Bring back streaming on a 56k modem, because it sounds better than HD AM music.

Am HD even sounds lousy for talk, artifact laden and shrill.

 

[KB1OKL]

Nobody cares. Nobody is keeping a score card. The ONLY thing that matters is if HD is standard equipment, no extra charge. Quality isn't the issue. Content isn't the issue. Surround sound isn't the issue. Reliability isn't the issue.

Put HD on a radio I already own, at no extra charge, and maybe I'll sample it. Otherwise, none of the other stuff matters. If you don't believe me, ask your moms or your wives. They just don't care.

If you haven't sampled it you are not missing anything and I agree no one cares, HD car radios are going to end up like 8 track players in cars decades ago: a dead thing in the dash board that no one knows how to use or cares about, well actually that's the way it is now isn't it?

 

[TheBigA]

If you haven't sampled it you are not missing anything and I agree no one cares, HD car radios are going to end up like 8 track players in cars decades ago: a dead thing in the dash board that no one knows how to use or cares about, well actually that's the way it is now isn't it?

There aren't really "HD car radios," but car radios that also pick up HD. Big difference. Not the same as an 8 track player. Also it doesn't require any knowledge to operate. Just like AM/FM.

 

[landtuna]

Quote Originally Posted by KB1OKL
If you haven't sampled it you are not missing anything and I agree no one cares, HD car radios are going to end up like 8 track players in cars decades ago: a dead thing in the dash board that no one knows how to use or cares about, well actually that's the way it is now isn't it?

There aren't really "HD car radios," but car radios that also pick up HD. Big difference. Not the same as an 8 track player. Also it doesn't require any knowledge to operate. Just like AM/FM.

Wrong on both counts (at least in my car and in my market).

As I have stated several times before, there are two HD stations in my town that carry content I can't get anywhere else. And not niche programming either. So for no other reason, content is important. The only other source would be XM/Sirius and that ain't free. Unless you spend a significant amount of time driving it probably isn't worth the cost.

Now, to operation. My car mimics the DIS system operation found in German luxury rides. It is not the most intuitive nor the easiest to use but you do get used to it over time. Tuning in an HD station, after it is tuned the first time is a two-step process - tune to the analog FM signal then select HD2. There is a way you can go right to the preset HD2 signal but that requires taking your eyes off the road to bring up the frequency table and punching that button. Neither are astronaut-complex but neither are they as simple as the old-fashioned FM push buttons.

When I bought the car the radio came full-featured as standard equipment. Had I had to pay extra for HD (or XM or AM) I would not have done so. Now, after having real world experience with it I would insist on having HD in my next car.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Now, to operation. My car mimics the DIS system operation found in German luxury rides. It is not the most intuitive nor the easiest to use but you do get used to it over time. Tuning in an HD station, after it is tuned the first time is a two-step process - tune to the analog FM signal then select HD2. There is a way you can go right to the preset HD2 signal but that requires taking your eyes off the road to bring up the frequency table and punching that button. Neither are astronaut-complex but neither are they as simple as the old-fashioned FM push buttons.

When I bought the car the radio came full-featured as standard equipment. Had I had to pay extra for HD (or XM or AM) I would not have done so. Now, after having real world experience with it I would insist on having HD in my next car.

Content is king for me, too. In fact, it is the reason why I now own three HD radios, and am considering a fourth. As an experienced DX'er, I can put up with most of shortcomings of the system that would drive the ordinary consumer away.

That tuning situation would be objectionable to me. It assumes that you care more about the station's primary analog and HD-1 format than you do the HD-2 format, instead of the HD-2 being considered a completely separate entity from analog / HD-1. I can honestly say that in one case, the station's analog / HD-1 is potentially offensive to me. KRBE is a top-40 station. Their analog / HD-1 is not even on my presets, because a lot of top-40 has offensive lyrical content. I put the "true oldies channel" on my preset. I would consider it way more trouble than it is worth if I had to endure a few seconds of "Wrecking Ball" before the oldies show up. Two very different formats, two different stations. Pioneer car radios allow HD-2 presets, and go straight to them without re-direction to analog / HD-1. The only time I get analog / HD-1 is if HD-2 drops for more than a minute. After which I tune to another station. KRBE seldom drops that ong, but KSBJ does. KSBJ might think a listener pushing 60 wouldn't mind their analog / HD-1 format. They would be mistaken. I find their analog / HD-1 format to be incredibly boring. If I don't hear NGEN, I know to tune off the station before I get bored with praise and worship music I don't like.

I keep hearing this objection of paying for XM / Sirius, but 90% of the country gets their TV over cable, which probably costs ten times as much. That makes the objection to paying for XM / Sirius sound really puny and hollow. If it has the content I want, I pay for it. My main objection to them is that they provide an outlet for Howard Stern, whom I avoid with a passion.

 

[landtuna]

I keep hearing this objection of paying for XM / Sirius, but 90% of the country gets their TV over cable, which probably costs ten times as much. That makes the objection to paying for XM / Sirius sound really puny and hollow.

Many people object to paying for services they don't use. I am one of those, therefore no XM/S. Not to mention that the sound quality on HD beats XM/S.

 

[TheBigA]

I keep hearing this objection of paying for XM / Sirius, but 90% of the country gets their TV over cable, which probably costs ten times as much. That makes the objection to paying for XM / Sirius sound really puny and hollow.

For 92% of the people there is no advantage of Sirius over OTA radio. So those people are happy with what they get for free. The other 8% wants very specific things, and for them, the money is worth it. Plus, a big bunch are getting their subscription at a discount.

 

[Wimmmex]

Am HD even sounds lousy for talk, artifact laden and shrill.

WBZ Boston...sound great! (But you can't pick that up, right?)

And here is what Landtuna said:

Not to mention that the sound quality on HD beats XM/S.

 

[Wimmmex]

Quote Originally Posted by KB1OKL
If you haven't sampled it you are not missing anything and I agree no one cares, HD car radios are going to end up like 8 track players in cars decades ago: a dead thing in the dash board that no one knows how to use or cares about, well actually that's the way it is now isn't it?


Wrong on both counts (at least in my car and in my market).

You keep wanting to speak for everyone KB1OKL....yet in spite of these grand pronouncements, HD radio just keeps keepin' on!

 

[Wimmmex]

I keep hearing this objection of paying for XM / Sirius, but 90% of the country gets their TV over cable, which probably costs ten times as much. That makes the objection to paying for XM / Sirius sound really puny and hollow.

The difference is...people CARE about TV......radio is an afterthought.