Stephanie Miller on Talk Decline

[TheBigA]

There's a fascinating article at Don Barrett's LARadio.com, picked up today by Tom Taylor, about Stephanie Miller who was talking about the decline in talk radio. She was lamenting the end of her friend Randi Rhodes show, but she expanded it to the broader discussion of the state of talk radio. She noted that changes in Rush Limbaugh's affiliates in NY and LA have driven overall talk numbers down. She also brought up consultant Holland Cooke's comments about the advertising band on Rush, that has expanded to all of talk radio:

“Hundreds of blue-chip national advertisers basically have not only wandered away from Rush Limbaugh and some of the other righties, they’ve abandoned the format entirely. They are afraid to be heard on a news talk station because this man’s use of his free speech triggered the opposing viewpoint exercising THEIR right to free speech.”

The above quote is a fact, because two years after Rush's Fluke incident, I still see commercial contracts that specify that their ads can't air in Rush, Hannity, Savage, or any other controversial programming. That ad ban apparently has caused some station owners to move Rush to his own station, as in LA, where he can't hurt other talkers.

It's an interesting article, because Rush continues to deny he is being hurt, and the talk format as a whole doesn't seem to be doing much to counter negative perceptions. Obviously, most of the negativity is about syndicated talk, rather than local talk. But Stephanie said that the continuing decline of Rush is bringing the entire format down.

 

[FredLeonard]

A few years ago, those ad contracts said nothing about Rush and other right-wing talkers but banned ads from running on Air America Radio stations (at all - including in newscasts and traffic reports produced by other companies). Always wondered why somebody like say AutoZone only wanted to sell car and truck parts to right-wingers. Don't progressives need new oil filters, too?

But let's face it: It's not just about avoiding controversy (now that the corporate suits have decided Rush, et al are controversial). It's about the demos. Nielsen only counts to 65 but if they counted higher, the age of the audience for right-wing talk would be reported as even higher. What Rush and the others deliver is angry, old White people and most advertisers aren't buying that. Listen to the spots running in right wing-talk. That will tell you everything you need to know about the state of talk radio and who is listening to it.

And for the record, progressive talk demos are slightly - but not much - better. Neither are demos for public radio news and information stations (although those do deliver higher income and education).

 

[TheBigA]

Listen to the spots running in right wing-talk. That will tell you everything you need to know about the state of talk radio and who is listening to it.

I agree. Twenty five years ago, Rush was the hot new thing. Not anymore. He's still the big dog, no question. Clear Channel also has the stations and power to keep him bigger than the indies. But it's not about reach, it's about revenue. And that's what's changed.

 

[Avid Listener]

That's how it works. Reduce variety in program content to just the select bare minimum of program elements that can be tested as guaranteed success. Tighten up the "playlist", whether it's song titles or conversation topics, the principle is the same. Research tells you that is the key to success. But then you burn out those "hits", and listeners just get bored and drift away, and the advertisers follow.

 

[TheBigA]

But then you burn out those "hits", and listeners just get bored and drift away, and the advertisers follow.

That's not the issue here. Rush was doing fine until he crossed a line. However, the similarity is that Rush's demographic is the same as the classic hits demo. Advertisers don't care about 60+. The listeners haven't drifted away, they just got too old.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

That's not the issue here. Rush was doing fine until he crossed a line. However, the similarity is that Rush's demographic is the same as the classic hits demo. Advertisers don't care about 60+. The listeners haven't drifted away, they just got too old.

We talk in these forums a lot about the changes in broadcasting and advertising. But the younger readers here may not see the changes that some of us see.

We used to not have the computer-power to do the kind of audience studies and consumer testing that we take for granted.

Corner market proprietors of 60 years ago looked for ways to keep their traditional neighborhood customers and knew about as much about what brfoughtg them in, and what kept them coming as they knew about why some baits and lures did better than others when they took an afternoon off and went fishing! Small store owners simply knew their customers on a first name basis and knew what they would buy. The vendor reps didn't even get down to the street corner store level where the purchasing decisons were made.

I've been as aggressive as anybody in harnessing today's technology and understanding how to process available and known facts, but I am convinced we are (as we said in the automobile business) leaving money on the table when the deals are done. We know what people listen to, what people watch, what people read and what people view on the web. Knowing that can make you successful. what we DON'T SEEM TO KNOW is what people DON'T do, and why they DON'T do it and what they would LIKE to do.

I am something of a fish out of water. I live in a community infested with rich, retired people who can do whatever they damn well please. (I'm here because some country boy screwed up and built a handful of cheap, small houses... by the standards of the neighborhood.) Because of my ZIP CODE I get two things I don't need: The damndest bunch of slick direct mail.... and phone solicitations beyond belief!

I can turn on the radio and my ears tell me that a number of stations haven't got a clue how to build their audience so they are playing "me too" and copying the folks who go after the big numbers. But you would think someone would screw-up and be so careless as to try to program to me and my neighbors.

Probably not in this lifetime!

Oh wait. I just remembered who my listeners are always quoting. RUSH LIMBAUGH. Now I get it. I live in an enclave of old folks. They claim to listen to Limbaugh! They certainly wouldn't want people like me to think that maybe they are liberal.

 

[TheBigA]

Corner market proprietors of 60 years ago looked for ways to keep their traditional neighborhood customers and knew about as much about what brfoughtg them in, and what kept them coming as they knew about why some baits and lures did better than others when they took an afternoon off and went fishing!

This is really true. The thing that hurt that corner store owner was when he got successful, and started hiring people to do the work, and interact with his customers. It gave him some leisure time to enjoy the fruit of his labors, but he lost touch with his business. Someone else was now interacting with the customers and getting the good gossip. We see that in talk radio too. The more successful the host, the more removed he becomes from the people and the issues that made him successful. It really is a challenge for a host to stay relevant, and find topics and approaches that speak to all ages, not just his own. Howard Stern has managed somehow to do that. Rush has not.

 

[umfan]

I've been hearing more and more mainstream advetisers return to Limbaugh's show as of late. Staples and America's Best Value Inn are a couple of specific examples, but I think it does come down to the demos as well as the recession forced a lot of brands to cut back advertising overall, so they cut radio and didn't see a negative impact from doing so, or at least didn't experience as severe of one that was feared. So they spend ad dollars elsewhere.

 

[Small Market Guy]

I've been hearing more and more mainstream advetisers return to Limbaugh's show as of late. Staples and America's Best Value Inn are a couple of specific examples, but I think it does come down to the demos as well as the recession forced a lot of brands to cut back advertising overall, so they cut radio and didn't see a negative impact from doing so, or at least didn't experience as severe of one that was feared. So they spend ad dollars elsewhere.

Oh, stop making sense! You're going to throw a wet blanket onto a perfectly good Rush bashing thread.

 

[Small Market Guy]

Howard Stern has managed somehow to do that. Rush has not.

Having porn stars ride an automated sex toy and talking about his Hamptons friends is even worse than Rush acting like he's a Tea Party guy. Howard is way more out of touch than Rush is these days.

 

[flybynight]

That's how it works. Reduce variety in program content to just the select bare minimum of program elements that can be tested as guaranteed success. Tighten up the "playlist", whether it's song titles or conversation topics, the principle is the same. Research tells you that is the key to success. But then you burn out those "hits", and listeners just get bored and drift away, and the advertisers follow.

Except that conversation on hot-button issues NEVER gets old. That's why people still talk to each other all over the place, about the most controversial news/issues of the day. The difference with talkradio is, they chose to not rely on hot-button issues, but instead on IDEOLOGY. I've always thought that was a mistake and sold the format short. So what actually got old, was the constant and predictable approach hosts have been taking, ie; conservatives good, anything else, BAD. Of course that got old.

Talkradio long ago stopped reflecting what most people talk about. They decided instead to cater to a niche of malcontents.

 

[Avid Listener]

I've been hearing more and more mainstream advetisers return to Limbaugh's show as of late. Staples and America's Best Value Inn are a couple of specific examples, but I think it does come down to the demos as well as the recession forced a lot of brands to cut back advertising overall, so they cut radio and didn't see a negative impact from doing so, or at least didn't experience as severe of one that was feared. So they spend ad dollars elsewhere.

You got that right. When the economy goes down the toilet, ad budgets are often the first things cut. And many companies do find they make the same amount of sales without advertising as they did with it. That same thing has happened in industries across the board, and in many different advertising media, not just radio.

 

[davideduardo]

And many companies do find they make the same amount of sales without advertising as they did with it.

Name a few, please. And not just one or two... enough to justify the "many companies" statement.

 

[flybynight]

Having porn stars ride an automated sex toy and talking about his Hamptons friends is even worse than Rush acting like he's a Tea Party guy. Howard is way more out of touch than Rush is these days.

Couldn't disagree more. You must not listen to him much. The first clue was your porn star reference. That's always the rap on him from people who don't listen. He hardly ever has porn stars on. He actually gets some big names in and does interviews you won't find most other places---or even anywhere else.

Granted, Limbaugh is a tea party poser, but he is not nearly as in-touch with this culture as Stern is. Stern is also far more genuine. I think Rush is a major shill, not to mention scumbag.

 

[Small Market Guy]

Couldn't disagree more. You must not listen to him much. The first clue was your porn star reference. That's always the rap on him from people who don't listen. He hardly ever has porn stars on. He actually gets some big names in and does interviews you won't find most other places---or even anywhere else.

I listened to him for 20 years when he was on regular radio. I tried when he moved to Sirius, but it wasn't the same. He either tried too hard with the sex stuff or he spent too long talking about his Hamptons friends. Howard is best when he has a chip on his shoulder. Sirius gave him everything he wanted. He's happy. Happy Howard makes for boring radio. Not replacing Artie was another big mistake. That show needs a comic. Jackie was the best, but Artie held his own for a few years until the drugs got to him. I don't even know who the writer is these days. Benjy? (Wanna tell me I never listened now?)

O&A did a much better job when they got to XM and were doing MUCH better radio than Howard until about a year or two ago. Now they've even checked out for the most part.

And if you think Stern is genuine, I can tell you. He's not. Not even close. Having known people who work at SiriusXM, the guy is more phony than even Rush. At least with Rush's phony Tea Party stuff it's at least somewhat related to the character Rush played for the first 20 years of the show. Howard is now the exact opposite of what he used to be.

 

[davideduardo]

A few years ago, those ad contracts said nothing about Rush and other right-wing talkers but banned ads from running on Air America Radio stations.

Air America did not get those ad contracts because it did not offer any significant contribution to a national ad campaign due to very low ratings.

This is no different than understanding why the #25 music radio station in a single market does not get much ad revenue from the major advertisers because advertisers only buy to a certain depth, nationally or locally. They may buy 5 deep or 10 deep, but not to the level of where Air America was in all but one or two markets.

Add to that the dismal administration of Air America and you have the reasons why it did not get on buys.

 

[flybynight]

I listened to him for 20 years when he was on regular radio. I tried when he moved to Sirius, but it wasn't the same. He either tried too hard with the sex stuff or he spent too long talking about his Hamptons friends. Howard is best when he has a chip on his shoulder. Sirius gave him everything he wanted. He's happy. Happy Howard makes for boring radio. Not replacing Artie was another big mistake.

I don't know who this "happy Howie" is that you're referring to, because the Stern I still hear often goes on tirades over, well, lots of things. Yes, he has softened a bit, as in, he's not as demonic as he used to be---and the Northshore Animal League please-the-wife pitches are annoying, but other than that, I still love the show.

Artie was good, but got really obnoxious with the drug-induced sick-call-ins and the sleeping during the show garbage.

On a side note: Jay Thomas is also very funny. Lots of radio stories. I'll never understand though why he carries that incredibly lame and boring Kevin Meaney on the show. He adds nothing.

 

[flybynight]

Air America did not get those ad contracts because it did not offer any significant contribution to a national ad campaign due to very low ratings.

This is no different than understanding why the #25 music radio station in a single market does not get much ad revenue from the major advertisers because advertisers only buy to a certain depth, nationally or locally. They may buy 5 deep or 10 deep, but not to the level of where Air America was in all but one or two markets.

Add to that the dismal administration of Air America and you have the reasons why it did not get on buys.

On a New York City-centric radio messageboard, esteemed former talk programmer John Manelli, who had the highest ratings WABC ever saw as a talk station, and was PD when Rush was hired in 1988, had this to say on this very subject recently:

"Limbaugh has always been a tough sell to mainstream advertisers, going back to his WABC launch in 1988. There have always been "not in this show" lists for political and otherwise controversial talk shows. Right away Limbaugh's initial syndicator, EFM Media, learned how to sell around Madison Ave. to a large number of specialty advertisers. Nonetheless, it has gotten increasingly difficult to fill his avails with big-buck spots in recent years for a number of reasons -- not the least of which is a steadily declining, less affluent, aging audience."

Interestingly enough, he also had this to say:

"A personal aside if I may. What a nasty, ugly man he has become."

In another post, he said he regrets having aided in bringing Rush to national attention. This had nothing to do with Rush being a "conservative", as Mainelli was longtime friends with, among others, WABC stalworth Bob Grant. His feelings about Limbaugh stem from Rush's absolute recklessness with the *facts* and what he has done to the nation's discourse for the sake of lining his own pockets. He also has commented on how Limbaugh gradually isolated himself as he became more popular.

Nobody had a better seat than Mainelli to witness the evolution and rise of Limbaugh.

 

[FredLeonard]

Air America did not get those ad contracts because it did not offer any significant contribution to a national ad campaign due to very low ratings.

This is no different than understanding why the #25 music radio station in a single market does not get much ad revenue from the major advertisers because advertisers only buy to a certain depth, nationally or locally. They may buy 5 deep or 10 deep, but not to the level of where Air America was in all but one or two markets.

Add to that the dismal administration of Air America and you have the reasons why it did not get on buys.

That's not what it said on the ad orders. AAR was mentioned specifically as controversial programming and therefore excluded. I saw the orders.

 

[davideduardo]

That's not what it said on the ad orders. AAR was mentioned specifically as controversial programming and therefore excluded. I saw the orders.

An "ad order" is a buy, and since AA did not get bought very often, there were no orders to look at. Unless that is not what you meant.

Many buys have specific no-controversial programming specs. That means, basically, no talk shows other than sports, That affected left, right and centrist stations and hosts. This is no different than specifying the kinds of formats to be bought based on product usage, etc. In other words, even if it seems political, it is not partisan as neither side of the aisle is discriminated against.