Where is the Center

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

We speak of political views that are right of center, we speak of political views that are left of center.

I am an obsessed construction watcher. As a kid my farmer father decided to have the farm "terraced". Little earthen borders were surveyed and marked so that rain water or irrigation water in the crop rows that followed the winding path of terraces stayed where it was. The rows did not go up hill. The rows did not go down hill. So we had no avalanch of rain water washing the dirt and seed down the hill. It seemed to be the perfect way to farm. And the construction project was fascinating to watch.

Some guy called the "surveyor" came out with his telescope on a tripod and an associate worker would wander around the field and through frantic hand motions the "stick holder" would move right or left until the perfect location was found, and one more little red flag on a stick would be pushed into the soil. And when they finished, my dad cranked up the farm tractor and used various blades and plows to create little earthen borders known as terraces.

When they are ready to build a new road, a new school, a new factory, a new shopiing center, some guy with the tripod and the surveying tools shows up and drives a "Base Point" marker in the ground somewhere on the construction site. It is always somewhere where dirt up which it sits will be the last dirt that needs to be moved as they finish the project. From this base point any construction crew can figure out WHERE on the site to put a water line, a driveway, a parking lot curb and the proper location for the buildings.

And if you watch the construction site closely.... that base point location installed by the original surveyor stay put until the last minute. It is the reference by which all other feautures are located.

It's like a sailor calculating his course across an ocean by measuring from the North Star.

Talk Radio seems to have no "base point". We have Conservative Right Wing talk. We have Liberal Left Wing talk. But where are the down-the-middle driven-by-the-North-Star Talk Radio programs. Can one survive the commercial broqadcasting climate? To use the old cliche: If we run Middle-of-the-Road up the flag pole, will any one salute?

 

[flybynight]

Talk Radio seems to have no "base point". We have Conservative Right Wing talk. We have Liberal Left Wing talk. But where are the down-the-middle driven-by-the-North-Star Talk Radio programs. Can one survive the commercial broqadcasting climate? To use the old cliche: If we run Middle-of-the-Road up the flag pole, will any one salute?

The closest you can hope for is a host who doesn't adhere to some strict ideology, but instead judges each situation on it's own merits. Quantifying a literal 50-50 split between their left and right opinions is a fool's errand. Most people have a combination of those ideologies and who cares if they're a little more one way than the other, as long as there's a mix AND they're entertaining.

Ironically, many of the strident radio hosts you hear today, exaggerate their own beliefs and/or fudge their own opinions to appeal to one extreme or the other. I've worked with your typical Limbaugh clone who, off the air, wasn't quite the conservative stalwart he'd like you to believe.

How about someone who's honest and isn't afraid to admit that the guy in office, left or right, is good or bad based on reality, not what sounds good to hardcore partisans, since most people are NOT hardcore partisans.

MOST people aren't all one way, no matter how much they claim they are. If you really look into people's lives, they're loaded with contradictions between what they say and what they actually do. Just put on a show that's honest.

 

[Avid Listener]

We speak of political views that are right of center, we speak of political views that are left of center.

I am an obsessed construction watcher. As a kid my farmer father decided to have the farm "terraced". Little earthen borders were surveyed and marked so that rain water or irrigation water in the crop rows that followed the winding path of terraces stayed where it was. The rows did not go up hill. The rows did not go down hill. So we had no avalanch of rain water washing the dirt and seed down the hill. It seemed to be the perfect way to farm. And the construction project was fascinating to watch.

Some guy called the "surveyor" came out with his telescope on a tripod and an associate worker would wander around the field and through frantic hand motions the "stick holder" would move right or left until the perfect location was found, and one more little red flag on a stick would be pushed into the soil. And when they finished, my dad cranked up the farm tractor and used various blades and plows to create little earthen borders known as terraces.

When they are ready to build a new road, a new school, a new factory, a new shopiing center, some guy with the tripod and the surveying tools shows up and drives a "Base Point" marker in the ground somewhere on the construction site. It is always somewhere where dirt up which it sits will be the last dirt that needs to be moved as they finish the project. From this base point any construction crew can figure out WHERE on the site to put a water line, a driveway, a parking lot curb and the proper location for the buildings.

And if you watch the construction site closely.... that base point location installed by the original surveyor stay put until the last minute. It is the reference by which all other feautures are located.

It's like a sailor calculating his course across an ocean by measuring from the North Star.

Talk Radio seems to have no "base point". We have Conservative Right Wing talk. We have Liberal Left Wing talk. But where are the down-the-middle driven-by-the-North-Star Talk Radio programs. Can one survive the commercial broqadcasting climate? To use the old cliche: If we run Middle-of-the-Road up the flag pole, will any one salute?

You've demonstrated one of the biggest problem with analogies and metaphors. They start with the premise that "X is like Y, so if this is true about X, it should also be true about Y". The problems all arise from the fact that X is not like Y, at least not to the extent that what works for X also works for Y.

Politics are measured on a simply left-right axis out of convenience, though a single axis system is woefully inadequate. And, though in some ways that axis is a continuum, in other ways it is an absolute. In many respects, one could say that one group of partisans wants to live on water, and the other group on dry land. The "middle" position would be for everyone to live on mud. Most folks wouldn't want to live on mud.

Or, from a different perspective, the political "middle" is the realm of the disinterested. People with strong opinions, on either edge, are passionate about their positions, and enjoy hearing spoken word content that arouses a response. But people whose opinions are in the middle tend to be so wishy-washy and disinterested that they just don't care. The majority of people who subscribe to the middle-of-the-road positions would prefer to use their radio as a source for music or other entertainment that requires no thought and inspires no passion.

Any sort of communication presented as entertainment, which is what news/talk radio is all about, must be first and foremost, perceived by the audience as entertaining. I realize many old farts are shocked and dismayed that old-school standards of decorum are, well, "old school". There are those who long for a return to the imaginary "good old days" of politeness and decorum, which were actually not really as polite as we probably remember them. They are as likely to have their nostalgic desires satisfied as those of us who long for a return to the exciting days of "free form" album oriented rock music formats. Those who want to see a return to those boring days of yesteryear have as much chance of seeing that happen as those even older who long for a return to scripted radio comedies and dramas.

The "good old days" are gone, and they are never, ever coming back. It might be a bitter pill for some of us to swallow, but that's reality. There was a time when the fear that if the content got too "rough and tumble" the more genteel listeners might leave had some merit. Now, things are different. Now, the new paradigm is that if things are not stirred up and exciting, then people will get bored and leave. Both are still true, but the genteel folk who are shocked if things aren't "polite" enough are a rapidly diminishing proportion of the population.

So, any attempt to provide some sort of middle-ground news/talk radio format is doomed to a quiet death.

 

[Small Market Guy]

Quantifying a literal 50-50 split between their left and right opinions is a fool's errand.

This sums it up.

 

[Small Market Guy]

Talk Radio seems to have no "base point". We have Conservative Right Wing talk. We have Liberal Left Wing talk. But where are the down-the-middle driven-by-the-North-Star Talk Radio programs. Can one survive the commercial broqadcasting climate? To use the old cliche: If we run Middle-of-the-Road up the flag pole, will any one salute?

Whether you agree with this or not, people see "center" as "wishy washy" and no one likes a wishy washy host. Every host that has tried the "I'm a moderate" gimmick has been a smashing failure.

 

[raccoonradio]

I agree with people like Alan Nathan: 'we want the Republicans out of our bedrooms, the Democrats out of our wallets, and both away from our first and second amendment rights!'. Have you heard of him? Probably not. Dennis Miller does OK though...conservative on many issues, liberal on others.

Some stations like 1500 in DC tried 'left, right, and whatever we want'. Didn't work. And there are some so far to the left or right that many hosts on 'their side' are too wishy washy.
Some token hosts from 'the other side' have been tried. Conservative WRKO Boston had Stephanie Miller on about 15yrs ago.Show ended. They had some token prog hosts on Sat. nights. Can you picture NPR type stations running conserv hosts similar to Ingraham, Savage, Howie Carr or Beck? Hmm..would be interesting..anyway as for centrists, rare. Hockey teams haveleft wingers, right wingers, and centers though.

 

[Small Market Guy]

I agree with people like Alan Nathan: 'we want the Republicans out of our bedrooms, the Democrats out of our wallets, and both away from our first and second amendment rights!'. Have you heard of him? Probably not. Dennis Miller does OK though...conservative on many issues, liberal on others.

Dennis Miller is a libertarian. Which is about as close to "center" as talk radio audiences will tolerate.

Of course it is possible to be conservative or liberal as a host and be fair to the other side. Some hosts do better at that than others. But listeners was a strong host.

 

[flybynight]

Whether you agree with this or not, people see "center" as "wishy washy" and no one likes a wishy washy host. Every host that has tried the "I'm a moderate" gimmick has been a smashing failure.

"Moderate" and "wishy-washy" are often confused, mainly because the term "moderate" implies to some that you are on the fence.

In reality, judging each situation on it's own merits and defending your position passionately, is hardly wishy-washy.

Fiercely defending a woman's right to choose, the justification for capital punishment, the need for gay rights and support for the 2nd amendment is not being wish-washy. They're just opinions that don't fit into a neat, one-size-fits-all, brainless doctrine.

 

[Avid Listener]

Dennis Miller is a libertarian. Which is about as close to "center" as talk radio audiences will tolerate.

Of course it is possible to be conservative or liberal as a host and be fair to the other side. Some hosts do better at that than others. But listeners was a strong host.

That's why the single-axis scale is woefully inadequate. The libertarian position isn't even on the left/right X axis. It lies on the top end of the Y axis. There are several different explanations of a two-axis political alignment system. Some includes quizzes that help one locate their own spot on the vector scale. The World's Smallest Political Quiz is another, similar system.

However, in the case of Dennis Miller, he's also very entertaining. It's not just the positions that he takes that makes him possible, it's the fact that he often says genuinely funny things. True, his style is distinctive and polarizing. Some enjoy him greatly, others can't stand him. But enough like his style to give him the success he's enjoyed.

 

[Small Market Guy]

"Moderate" and "wishy-washy" are often confused, mainly because the term "moderate" implies to some that you are on the fence.

In reality, judging each situation on it's own merits and defending your position passionately, is hardly wishy-washy.

Fiercely defending a woman's right to choose, the justification for capital punishment, the need for gay rights and support for the 2nd amendment is not being wish-washy. They're just opinions that don't fit into a neat, one-size-fits-all, brainless doctrine.

I think you missed the part where I said "people SEE center as wishy washy". Sure there are people who have varied views. I'm one of them. But you have to be very careful to make sure people understand. A host that screams "I'm not liberal and I'm not conservative" is just asking for a bad reaction from listeners. As a host you need to explain that someone can be conservative and support gay marriage or be liberal and support the Second Amendment. Or just not have those topics on your show. If you want to connect with an audience you need to find common ground and stay on common ground.

Talk radio audiences need to be spoon fed. We forget that they're not likely listening for 4 hours every single day. They don't get nuances on positions. You need to be very clear how you communicate positions lest you be thought of as wishy washy, whether you actually ARE or not.

 

[umfan]

How about Jim Bohannon? Doug Stephan? Count more general insterest in there and you have Ramsey (certainly right of center, but his show could be construed as center), Clark Howard and the morning newsmagazines, WSJ This Morning and America in the Morning (Bohannon again, but a totally different show).

Morning Drive is dominanted by local programs. Paul W. Smith in Detroit is squarely in the center.

There is content and a market for such shows and they do exist.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

After reading through the responses, I realize I may have not used the best title for this thread. But the follow-up posts have been quite good.

I wasn't asking the question "Where are the broadcasts that promote the center, or where are the broadcasts that contain the thinking of the people who choose to be in the center?"

And though we would eventually find ourselves dealing with the question: "Can a Talk Radio program where the center of political thinking is the focus survive financially?" that wasn't the discussion I was hoping for, but I understood we would likely end up finding that in our conversation.

The question I was really asking: We are a people who seem to get quite excited about being either Liberal or Conservative. We are a people who seem to sneer when a dufus like me asks the question and we say things like: "People in the center of the road are likely to get run over in traffic." People in the center are people who don't have the brain power to sort out the facts and pick a side." The list could go on.

I'm not lecturing anyone. As usual, this conversation will, like a creek or river, find its way through the valleys and hills. My original (intended) question is: whether you agree with them or not, is there actually a political centrist position that can be defined; How do we "calculate" and say 'Here it is... I don't agree with it, but here it is... this is a philosophy that picks the best values from the garden of political thinking, and this is the center!"

Whether anyone can ever create a successful radio program built around centrist political thinking is a second or separate question.

 

[flybynight]

Whether anyone can ever create a successful radio program built around centrist political thinking is a second or separate question.

A centrist is more of a debate moderator, less an opinion person.

A show like that CAN be interesting, but it's a different animal.

 

[Avid Listener]

And though we would eventually find ourselves dealing with the question: "Can a Talk Radio program where the center of political thinking is the focus survive financially?" that wasn't the discussion I was hoping for, but I understood we would likely end up finding that in our conversation.

Given that news/talk radio as become so much like music format radio, individual talk shows can only thrive in the context of being part of a program format that carries talk of the same political alignment in almost all dayparts. Having a centerist talk host thriving on a station that has a right wing hosts surrounding him would probably be as effective as having a DJ that plays country music survive on a station that otherwise programs CHR music. That wasn't how things worked in the past, but it's not the past any more. It's the present.

The question I was really asking: We are a people who seem to get quite excited about being either Liberal or Conservative. We are a people who seem to sneer when a dufus like me asks the question and we say things like: "People in the center of the road are likely to get run over in traffic." People in the center are people who don't have the brain power to sort out the facts and pick a side." The list could go on.

I'm not lecturing anyone. As usual, this conversation will, like a creek or river, find its way through the valleys and hills. My original (intended) question is: whether you agree with them or not, is there actually a political centrist position that can be defined; How do we "calculate" and say 'Here it is... I don't agree with it, but here it is... this is a philosophy that picks the best values from the garden of political thinking, and this is the center!"

Whether anyone can ever create a successful radio program built around centrist political thinking is a second or separate question.

You are very clearly misconstruing what most people are saying about people who have a moderate or centerist political alignment. That's the kind of unfair characterization that you would raise objection to if anyone else made such a claim. Most of us aren't saying that the people in the middle lack intelligence. We're saying that they lack passion for hearing political discussions from a center/moderate perspective. The talk hosts who are extreme in their alignment are appealing to their fans because of the host's passion. How are you going to get people enthused about a dispassionate, moderate presentation?

Then, there's the issue of the inadequacies of the single alignment scale. Even a host like Dennis Miller, who is libertarian and therefore doesn't fit neatly on any spot on the X axis, is at an extreme end of the Y axis.

A centrist is more of a debate moderator, less an opinion person.

A show like that CAN be interesting, but it's a different animal.

Actually, I'd say that it's more like an episode of a show like that could be interesting, but you couldn't fill an entire broadcasting day with interesting shows like that day in and day out for any length of time.

 

[joebtsflk1]

In my fantasy world, I envision someone adopting the seemingly oxymoronic moniker "The Marauding Moderate" that would attack the excesses of both the left AND the right. TMM would take no prisoners in the quest for reform.

This gentleman's article in the op/ed section of our Sunday paper here sums up my frustrations well:http://www.chieftain.com/opinion/2553986-120/parties-party-feel-voting

 

[flybynight]

A passionate host can actually hold and fiercely defend these positions among others:

Pro-gun rights
Pro-choice
Anti-illegal alien amnesty
Pro-legalization of pot

MOST people actually have a mix of opinions, fluctuating between the two ideologies. That doesn't make them moderate of lacking passion. There is something there for both sides to like and dislike. As long as the host is interesting/entertaining/passionate, who cares if his opinions, on-balance, are left or right of center?

STOP the idiotic music-station comparisons. I realize that on the surface it may look like a great analogy, but if you understand what people are actually listening to in these formats and why, you'd realize the analogy is facile at best. People who don't like country music, don't like country music. Someone who doesn't agree with a talk host can still be entertained by them. It happens all the time.

 

[TheBigA]

A passionate host can actually hold and fiercely defend these positions among others:

Why does the host have to hold any positions? Imagine a talk show where the host simply creates a welcoming atmosphere for ALL views, and instead of the host taking advocacy positions, he steps out of the way and lets the callers talk.

 

[joebtsflk1]

Why does the host have to hold any positions? Imagine a talk show where the host simply creates a welcoming atmosphere for ALL views, and instead of the host taking advocacy positions, he steps out of the way and lets the callers talk.

That was talk radio during the Fairness Doctrine era. I'm not advocating for or against the Fairness Doctrine, just describing the state of talk radio during that era.

 

[TheBigA]

That was talk radio during the Fairness Doctrine era. I'm not advocating for or against the Fairness Doctrine, just describing the state of talk radio during that era.

I think radio hosts get in trouble when they take an advocacy position. They also stand the chance of alienating a portion of the audience. Radio used to be a place that sought to invite everyone into the same room. That's not the case any more. The challenge is for the host to come up with a style and a way of attracting an audience WITHOUT creating enemies. That's not easy.

 

[Small Market Guy]

In my fantasy world, I envision someone adopting the seemingly oxymoronic moniker "The Marauding Moderate" that would attack the excesses of both the left AND the right. TMM would take no prisoners in the quest for reform.

I know hosts like that.

They're out of work.