Modern Worship and more

[Avid Listener]

I don't think that's anything compared to what I feel like doing.

And they don't know. For all they know I'm in the rest room.

Rudeness isn't determined by whether or not anyone else knew you were being rude. If you fart, but no one hears it, you've still farted. If you're rude, even if no one notices, you're still rude.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Rudeness isn't determined by whether or not anyone else knew you were being rude. If you fart, but no one hears it, you've still farted. If you're rude, even if no one notices, you're still rude.

So if I am taking a walk in the woods, maybe hiking the trail up this modest little mountain in my community, and out there in the woods with no one within a mile of me, I discharge a flatulent.... that is rude?

According to whom?

Its a teaching of the church that God created humans.... warts, dandruff, athletes foot, back pains and all. And so our friend graciously exits a worship event, takes a quiet walk to "the facility" and that wondrous, divinely designed body makes an awkward noise as a normal part of the digestion and excrement system.... and you insist on telling a poster that he has committed a rude action?

 

[anotherguyTN]

I don't think that's anything compared to what I feel like doing.

And they don't know. For all they know I'm in the rest room.

I'd bet that some people have figured out why you're leaving, especially if you talk about it like you do here. If it hasn't happened already I'm surprised someone hasn't taken you to task over it.

All you're really doing is showing your lack of spiritual maturity.

 

[anotherguyTN]

Its a teaching of the church that God created humans.... warts, dandruff, athletes foot, back pains and all. And so our friend graciously exits a worship event, takes a quiet walk to "the facility" and that wondrous, divinely designed body makes an awkward noise as a normal part of the digestion and excrement system.... and you insist on telling a poster that he has committed a rude action?

Just don't have a wireless mike on while you're there. That happened to a pastor in the church grew up in once. Thankfully no bodily noises, but it was still hilarious!

 

[Avid Listener]

So if I am taking a walk in the woods, maybe hiking the trail up this modest little mountain in my community, and out there in the woods with no one within a mile of me, I discharge a flatulent.... that is rude?

According to whom?

Its a teaching of the church that God created humans.... warts, dandruff, athletes foot, back pains and all. And so our friend graciously exits a worship event, takes a quiet walk to "the facility" and that wondrous, divinely designed body makes an awkward noise as a normal part of the digestion and excrement system.... and you insist on telling a poster that he has committed a rude action?

I didn't say farting was rude. I said that farting was like walking out on someone making a musical offering to God in church. A fart is a fart, whether anyone hears (or smells) it or not. Walking out on someone is rude, whether anyone knows that's why the person is walking out or not. The person in question didn't leave the room to fart. He left the room as an insult to the person singing a song that didn't fit his narrow definition of what a "proper" church song should sound like.

In my church, we're taught that worship is our interaction with God. So, walking out on someone making an offering of music to God is rude to God. The fact that other people in the congregation don't notice, or were polite enough to pretend not to notice, doesn't change the fact that the action committed was rude.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

In my church, we're taught that worship is our interaction with God. So, walking out on someone making an offering of music to God is rude to God. The fact that other people in the congregation don't notice, or were polite enough to pretend not to notice, doesn't change the fact that the action committed was rude.

We are at the edge of the roadway here when it comes to keeping our conversations somehow related to radio, but let's see what we can do.

People who listen to religions content on the radio eventually guage what they hear on the radio based on what they hear in church, or the other way around.

Somewhere there is a breaking point in the scene you described above. At some point, another person, or other persons enduring a flawed worship event not only MAY look for ways to express their opinion of the content, we could argue that they MUST look for ways to express their opinion that the content is flawed.

Now if you have quietly gone to the chairman of a committee that orchestrates the content, and/or you have quietly gone to the pastor and expressed your observations, what other avenues are available for you to communicate your disgust, your contempt, your disapproval. Leaving the room midpoint with dignity may be one of the mildest forms of expressing dissent. Standing up during the even and issuing a "Bronx Cheer"... also knowns as "The Respberries" is probably not a suitable form of protest. The ultimate form of protest is to simply move your affiliation, you membership to some other location, some other group.

I can tell you from experience that some people feel that the bomb of "transferring to another group" is also considered rude in some circles.

So what is your prescription for getting things calmed down when the waters are troubled?

And will that prescription work when you find religious content on the radio that is annoying/rude/improper/disgusting/lacking-in-sparkle?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

We are at the edge of the roadway here when it comes to keeping our conversations somehow related to radio, but let's see what we can do.

I have given a lot of thought of what constitutes toxic church / toxic radio situations. The authority syndrome is the answer. You get somebody who thinks they have a direct - and only - line to God, and they are going to relentlessly persecute everybody who disagrees with them in the slightest point of doctrine. If it is a station owner, you get the notorious raid on WCIE by short sighted church leaders, or the unceremonious walking of Buddy Holiday out of WCIE - or my treatment of having my rates raised and hours cut. A lot of good people have had hearts broken in Christian radio, a lot of others have left in disgust - never to return to broadcast. You get the same ilk in churches. Gossip, backbiting, persecution, and other garbage like it. Fortunately it is nothing like the Taliban and all that Islam stuff - they kill each other. But in past centuries it was.

Toxic church, toxic radio - THINK, PEOPLE! Before you act and drive people away from Christ, which is something nobody in Christian radio or a church for that matter wants to do!

 

[Avid Listener]

So what is your prescription for getting things calmed down when the waters are troubled?

And will that prescription work when you find religious content on the radio that is annoying/rude/improper/disgusting/lacking-in-sparkle?

The remedy is totally dependent on the people involved and the circumstances. If the "troubles in the water" consists of some rude person walking out on a musical performance in church, the remedy is point out that such churlish actions are rude, in hopes that he'll recognize it and stop.

If something is annoying/rude/improper/disgusting/lacking-in-sparkle on the radio, since I'm almost always listening when I'm alone, with no one else around, I change the station. That's the difference between listening to the radio and attending a church service. They are two very different things.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

If something is annoying/rude/improper/disgusting/lacking-in-sparkle on the radio, since I'm almost always listening when I'm alone, with no one else around, I change the station. That's the difference between listening to the radio and attending a church service. They are two very different things.

Rude is a judgement call, and people need to stop judging. I quit attending a church that makes the announcement "unless it is an emergency, don't get up and leave during the service". I have limited mobility. I need to leave a few minutes early to avoid being trampled by 10,000 people leaving the service. Other people need to go to the bathroom. Take important cell phone calls. To me, it is rude to force people to sit uncomfortably, miss that call time or not hear about the relative in the hospital, etc. Let people come and go as they please. It isn't rude. It is life happening.

Fortunately radio has no such oversight from reverend big brother. But I have been challenged by people "you mean you don't listen to K___? Why not, are you backsliding?" That - is rude!

 

[Avid Listener]

Rude is a judgement call, and people need to stop judging.

Judging, in the sense it is used in the Bible, consists of determining if someone is guilty of a violation of the law, determining an appropriate punishment, and carrying out that punishment. Comparing an action to the commonly accepted rules of behaviour and expressing an opinion on whether or not the action conforms to the rules or not is not "judging".

Which is why I am so irritated at people who accuse radio talk hosts of being "judgemental". News/talk hosts on all sides of the political spectrum frequently note whether some public figure's actions conform to commonly accepted standards, but they have no authority to impose a sentence or punishment, let alone the ability to carry out that sentence.

I'm also annoyed when people fail to recognize the importance of motivation in determining whether an action is rude or not. Deliberately walking out of a religious service because you don't like a particular piece of music is a totally different thing from leaving a worship service early because of certain physical needs. True, both involved leaving. But the drastically different reasons why the person is leaving makes them two totally different actions, in no way comparable to each other.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Judging, in the sense it is used in the Bible, consists of determining if someone is guilty of a violation of the law, determining an appropriate punishment, and carrying out that punishment.

Deliberately walking out of a religious service because you don't like a particular piece of music is a totally different thing from leaving a worship service early because of certain physical needs. True, both involved leaving. But the drastically different reasons why the person is leaving makes them two totally different actions, in no way comparable to each other.

We have to be very careful. Substitute the word "Koran" for "Bible" above and you have justified every atrocity we hear about in the news - at least in their eyes.

As for leaving a service - how do you know the reason? Have a deacon stop the person at the door? That is more disruption than not stopping them. I have been stopped - and I make a point of being a little loud. That person never stops me again. Let people come and go as they please, the same as a sporting event or a movie. Or you risk people not coming back.

As for radio - someone who listens to the Christian rock station is not "backslidden" compared to somebody who listens to the preaching and hymns station. You do NOT look down on them!!!!

 

[Avid Listener]

We have to be very careful. Substitute the word "Koran" for "Bible" above and you have justified every atrocity we hear about in the news - at least in their eyes.

I'm not advocating the sort of "judgement" that I described as what was meant by the word in the Bible. I don't justify anyone passing sentence and carrying it out.

As for leaving a service - how do you know the reason?

The person I'm talking about posted the reason here in this forum, bragging about the fact that they walked out on someone performing a worship song that they didn't like. I haven't been talking about any sort of general situation. I'm talking about a single, specific incident that the perpetrator bragged about in a post in this thread. Go back and read through the posts in this thread and you'll see it. When someone says that he left a service for a specific reason, I think it's pretty safe to assume that he left the service for the reason that he posted.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The person I'm talking about posted the reason here in this forum, bragging about the fact that they walked out on someone performing a worship song that they didn't like. I haven't been talking about any sort of general situation. I'm talking about a single, specific incident that the perpetrator bragged about in a post in this thread. Go back and read through the posts in this thread and you'll see it. When someone says that he left a service for a specific reason, I think it's pretty safe to assume that he left the service for the reason that he posted.

I actually supported his decision. Better for one disgruntled person to leave than for that person to inflict their disruptive influence on the whole church. I encouraged him to go down the street, there is no shortage of churches in this country. Same as radio. You don't like like the station, you don't leave it tuned in and complain, you tune to another station. It isn't that hard. I've walked out of churches - one time when they were about to have "Imagine" as one of the hymns - there it was in their hymnal big and ugly with all the atheist lyrics. I don't put up with that. I left rather than sing that thing. I was a disgruntled person who left. They want to sing that abomination in a church, they are free to do so. I left. Same with radio. I got a lot of pressure to play things I didn't consider appropriate to play on a Christian station. I pushed the envelope, playing secular artists who were doing Christian or Biblical lyrics. I paid the price for it - a local youth leader in my church and some of the youth despised me and shut down tapes of my show before the youth service. I moved before I had to walk out.

 

[vchimpanzee]

The person I'm talking about posted the reason here in this forum, bragging about the fact that they walked out on someone performing a worship song that they didn't like. I haven't been talking about any sort of general situation. I'm talking about a single, specific incident that the perpetrator bragged about in a post in this thread. Go back and read through the posts in this thread and you'll see it. When someone says that he left a service for a specific reason, I think it's pretty safe to assume that he left the service for the reason that he posted.

When did I ever BRAG?

There are two options. Leave because this noise makes me very uncomfortable and come back a few minutes later when things are back to "normal", or skip the service entirely when I know what is going to happen. sometimes I have enough advance warning I can do the latter.

There is a third option. If I get pushed into a corner because it's raining outside and the speakers are on in the hall ... you just don't want to know.

Deliberately walking out of a religious service because you don't like a particular piece of music is a totally different thing from leaving a worship service early because of certain physical needs.

Actually, I think my reason for leaving does fall under this category.

 

[vchimpanzee]

The remedy is totally dependent on the people involved and the circumstances. If the "troubles in the water" consists of some rude person walking out on a musical performance in church, the remedy is point out that such churlish actions are rude, in hopes that he'll recognize it and stop.

That's not going to work in my case. The only other way is to avoid going to that church entirely on the Sundays when I know that is happening or quit going to that church at all. My solution actually works pretty well and no one has said anything.

 

[vchimpanzee]

In my church, we're taught that worship is our interaction with God. So, walking out on someone making an offering of music to God is rude to God.

I don't listen to people who say if it's acceptable to God it must be all right. A former pastor, when I commented on the situation my email anonymously, tried this with me and it didn't work. She probably thinks I never came back.

It has to be something I can deal with, and I can't deal with this.

One positive development is that on Memorial Day weekend, when I wasn't there at all, it turned out they had a completely normal service even though it was the fourth Sunday (for the past year my church has done things differently on the fourth Sunday, so i've been gone). Someone made the comment that if they promised to do something they ought to be there to do it.

I was there on another fourth Sunday (because I had heard it was going to be essentially a normal service) and the only thing out of character was the anthem, and I didn't have to be in there for it.

According to SOME people, though, I should have skipped that Sunday entirely.

 

[Avid Listener]

I actually supported his decision. Better for one disgruntled person to leave than for that person to inflict their disruptive influence on the whole church. I encouraged him to go down the street, there is no shortage of churches in this country. Same as radio. You don't like like the station, you don't leave it tuned in and complain, you tune to another station.

The difference is that a worship service, the Holy Christian Mass, is an event people participate in. It is not a "Jesus show" performed for the benefit of the audience in the pews. The liturgy is, literally, "the work of the people". Once you commit to participating in a divine worship service, you participate in the service to the best of your ability. You don't have to return the next Sunday if you don't want to, but you don't bail out in the middle.

 

[vchimpanzee]

The difference is that a worship service, the Holy Christian Mass, is an event people participate in. It is not a "Jesus show" performed for the benefit of the audience in the pews. The liturgy is, literally, "the work of the people". Once you commit to participating in a divine worship service, you participate in the service to the best of your ability. You don't have to return the next Sunday if you don't want to, but you don't bail out in the middle.

I'm not Catholic.

My way is the best way, because it means I still support that church. Maybe not to the extent you would like, but I'm not doing a perfect job there by any means.

To leave for good means either quitting church entirely or going through the ordeal of finding another church.

 

[Avid Listener]

I'm not Catholic.

I'm not a Roman Catholic. If you're going to "support your church", you should pay heed to what makes a church a church. It is where the Gospel is rightly preached and the sacraments properly administered.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The difference is that a worship service, the Holy Christian Mass, is an event people participate in. It is not a "Jesus show" performed for the benefit of the audience in the pews. The liturgy is, literally, "the work of the people". Once you commit to participating in a divine worship service, you participate in the service to the best of your ability. You don't have to return the next Sunday if you don't want to, but you don't bail out in the middle.

I beg to disagree, but it actually IS a Jesus show. And that applies to radio as well. The difference being that you aren't in there - or tuned in - for Jesus' benefit. It is for your benefit. Whether it was the sermon on the mount, or a modern church service, or tuning in Christian radio - you are doing it to come closer to God. Sure enough, Jesus loves worship in spirit and in truth, I am not denying that. But he doesn't "need" your worship to survive or something. He is that He is. Nothing you do will add or subtract for that in any way. You go in and worship - or tune Christian radio - to cleanse your heart and remind yourself that He is Lord.

Notice there is nothing "Catholic" or "Protestant" or Christian rock or hymns in that. The important thing is experiential - your walk with Christ, what draws you closer to Him. That can be totally different from the guy standing next to you. If you aren't in that spirit of worship and drawing closer to Christ along with the person next to you - change the station or change the church! It - is - NOT - THAT - DIFFICULT! Do it the moment you are uncomfortable, do it without judging the guy next to you who IS worshipping, and find your niche quickly so you stay in fellowship with other believers.

As far as getting up and leaving - did people have to go to the bathroom during the sermon on the mount? Did they have disruptive kids / pressing family matters / have to get to their jobs - and leave? Of course! Personally I'd have held it, because that was pivotal. But the people at the time may not have known it. Did Jesus rebuke people for coming and going? Not one word. Neither should a church today. Fortunately - Christian radio has no way of tracking individual listeners, or I bet some rogue stations would "guilt trip" people into listening. As it is - a well known station issues a "30 day challenge" to listen only to their station. A long time ago, there used to be station give-aways of radios permanently tuned to their frequency and incapable of being tuned. Perhaps Christian radio stations should revive that idea if they want to force people to listen to their station.