Classic Hits 80s

[firepoint525]

This is why big playlist gold stations in major markets fail, yet there are cases of such poor programming in smaller markets on stations that continue to play long lists, year after year. In the big market, there are plenty of suitable alternatives. In the small market, there are not.

Calling it "poor programming" is a sign of a bias on your part. Hippie Radio went head-to-head with "Classic Hits 97.1" two years ago, and not surprisingly, the latter blinked first. Hippie Radio has had the same programming for well over two years now, despite your almost daily insistence over those past two years that they will be gone "just any day now." If the corporate bigwigs could maintain the same format for that long, you might have a point. But Come-in-last constantly "tweaked" 97.1 to the point that I believe listeners lost interest. And playing the SAME song for as many as FOUR times in a row every Monday afternoon certainly did not help out their cause. I don't think that they ever maintained ANY format for as long as two years.

I don't want any of the corporate guys trying to program MY generation's music, because they have repeatedly proven that they can't get it right. Don't denigrate the guys who ARE doing it right. Kool 103 down in Jackson has had this format for 25 years! The corporate guys can't maintain a format for that long. Don't run down the stations who are actually satisfying their listeners.

Do us a favor, David. Since you obviously have a bias against this format, just don't even program a station with this format. Leave it to the guys who know what they are doing. Leave it to the independent guys, and moms and pops, and you can go program Katy Perry on AC.

Even the "big playlist gold stations in major markets" argument falls flat with me because in these days of multiple station ownership, the station in question is often owned by the same corporation as the station with the next closest format, making that argument suspect.

 

[firepoint525]

Outliers always think that their choices and taste in music is superior to all the (insert pejorative indicating robot-like behaviour of the masses here). They will never be convinced that they are in the majority, and thought lowly of by mainstream listeners. The same goes for outliers in any type of product, creation or service.

Wrong again, David. We are mainstream. We are NOT those guys who listened to stations like WRVU. Those guys were the ones who listened to groups like the Smiths, the Cure, and REM. The fact that WRVU is gone (except on HD radio) bolsters my point. Implying (or outright saying) that guys like me are not "mainstream" only indicates yet another bias on your part.

 

[davideduardo]

Do us a favor, David. Since you obviously have a bias against this format, just don't even program a station with this format. Leave it to the guys who know what they are doing.

I actually do the music programming for several station in this format.

And, just because stations with excessive playlists and absurd, obscure songs continue to exist in smaller markets, that does not mean they are well programmed. It means they have limited competition and are not achieving their full potential to reach and entertain audiences.

Your constant example, WHPY, is currently 22nd in 25-54 in its market, and an average of 25-54 for the first 3 books of 2014 gives them an AQH audience size of 300. I see that as depriving listeners of better programming.

 

[davideduardo]

Wrong again, David. We are mainstream. We are NOT those guys who listened to stations like WRVU. Those guys were the ones who listened to groups like the Smiths, the Cure, and REM. The fact that WRVU is gone (except on HD radio) bolsters my point. Implying (or outright saying) that guys like me are not "mainstream" only indicates yet another bias on your part.

If you do a random recruit of people who like music of the CHR gold format in a salable demo (nobody over 55), you will find, uniformly, that the consensus songs number in the 600 to 700 range and that there is no valid reason for playing more, other than not wanting to spend on research and flying blind.

As I said, outliers always think their perspective is superior to that of the broader group. You have just proven that.

 

[firepoint525]

I actually do the music programming for several station in this format.
And, just because stations with excessive playlists and absurd, obscure songs continue to exist in smaller markets, that does not mean they are well programmed. It means they have limited competition and are not achieving their full potential to reach and entertain audiences.
Your constant example, WHPY, is currently 22nd in 25-54 in its market, and an average of 25-54 for the first 3 books of 2014 gives them an AQH audience size of 300. I see that as depriving listeners of better programming.

"Excessive playlists" and "absurd, obscure songs." Again, your bias AGAINST this format is showing. We don't ask you to like the songs. We don't give a damn whether you like them. We just ask you to play them. If you can't do that, then there are about 100 other different formats that you could program. We aren't being "deprived" of anything, except excessive repeats of "Hotel California." And we don't want that, anyway.

The other 21 stations above WHPY aren't programming this music, anyway, so no real issue there. The real issue is can they sell enough advertising to stay profitable and stay on the air. And apparently, they can. Do you really think the average listener gives a damn about "ratings" anyway? Remember, stations like these aren't trying to sell to those national snake oil salesmen who sell their questionable "products" with the 800 number repeated at least three times at the end. (And those were ALL that we heard over the Come-in-last station while they were here. I paid attention) No, these guys are selling to LOCAL advertisers, mom and pop businesses, who, if I wanted to, I could walk into their brick-and-mortar business and speak with the proprietor of said business if I wanted to. Can't really do that with those "products" that have consumer complaints against them, now can we?

Previously, you have referred to this format as a "geezer demo." Sorry Davey baby, but we aren't ready to be shipped off to convalescent homes just yet.

 

[firepoint525]

If you do a random recruit of people who like music of the CHR gold format in a salable demo (nobody over 55), you will find, uniformly, that the consensus songs number in the 600 to 700 range and that there is no valid reason for playing more, other than not wanting to spend on research and flying blind.

As I said, outliers always think their perspective is superior to that of the broader group. You have just proven that.

Everything that you post is about blanching the playlist to the point of near boredom, and taking the music AWAY from us. I am definitely NOT an "outlier." Nice try with that one, Davey.

The reason why they don't try to sell to anyone over 55 is because they CAN'T. They price the local guys out of business to the point that they can't afford to advertise on those "local" stations, leaving only the national advertisers who hawk those questionable "products" with the repeated 800 numbers at the end of every ad. Damn right, you WON'T sell that snake oil to us. We know better. And I am nowhere near 55 yet.

 

[davideduardo]

"Excessive playlists" and "absurd, obscure songs." Again, your bias AGAINST this format is showing. We don't ask you to like the songs. We don't give a damn whether you like them. We just ask you to play them. If you can't do that, then there are about 100 other different formats that you could program. We aren't being "deprived" of anything, except excessive repeats of "Hotel California." And we don't want that, anyway.

The only "bias" I have against playing 50's and 60's songs is a business bias: there is essentially little ad revenue to be had when all your core audience is over 55.

However, WHPY is a suburban and limited signal, and I have mentioned a number of times that "real" oldies may be an option for rimshots and suburban stations. So in that context, they are doing what may be their only viable option.

But playing such a deep library does not benefit them. It reduces their possibilities of getting a larger audience and generating results for local direct accounts. Many people, although most in the Medicare demos, will like a "biggest hits" format but the number will be substantially reduced by playing too many secondary songs and beyond.

 

[davideduardo]

Everything that you post is about blanching the playlist to the point of near boredom, and taking the music AWAY from us. I am definitely NOT an "outlier."

Yet time after time, stations that come in with focused listener-consulted playlists beat the bigger, deep playlist stations. The opposite seldom happens.

Your like of bigger, broader playlists that cater to your specific taste to the exclusion of the opinions of other potential listeners is the essence of being an outlier.

The reason why they don't try to sell to anyone over 55 is because they CAN'T.

There is little money out there for 55+, and even less for 65+. The reason is that advertisers, both local and national, don't focus on those groups as they find their advertising there has a lower return on investment than what they are seeking.

They price the local guys out of business to the point that they can't afford to advertise on those "local" stations,

The real issue is that in most markets there just are not as many local advertisers left... the big box stores and WalMarts have driven many out of business. And others are such small local businesses that any radio station wastes their money reaching customers who would never drive the distance to the little business' location.

[/QUOTE]... leaving only the national advertisers who hawk those questionable "products" with the repeated 800 numbers at the end of every ad.[/QUOTE]

Agency accounts that use ratings to buy and who generally exclude 55+ are everything from McDonalds to the larger local car dealers.

The 800 number ads are generally either must-clear network spots for unwired network sales or they are PI ads, with compensation based on response and run when a station is very light on inventory usage.

And I am nowhere near 55 yet.

Further proof that you are an outlier.

 

[firepoint525]

The only "bias" I have against playing 50's and 60's songs is a business bias: there is essentially little ad revenue to be had when all your core audience is over 55.

Where did I say anything about the '50s? The '50s have been gone from here for nearly a decade. Wanna chase away your audience? Play '90s!

However, WHPY is a suburban and limited signal, and I have mentioned a number of times that "real" oldies may be an option for rimshots and suburban stations. So in that context, they are doing what may be their only viable option.

Pretty much any station whose COL is anything other than the central main city could be considered a "rimshot." But at the same time, we must remember that this is 2014, not 1975. I laugh at all these stations spending millions of $$$ trying to move their stick closer to downtown, when I can go to Best Buy, pick up a $12 patch cord, plug it into the wife's ipad, and any station that streams sounds like it is right next door on the car radio. We listened to retro AT40 on Hippie all the way into Alabama.

But playing such a deep library does not benefit them. It reduces their possibilities of getting a larger audience and generating results for local direct accounts. Many people, although most in the Medicare demos, will like a "biggest hits" format but the number will be substantially reduced by playing too many secondary songs and beyond.

We aren't nearly as old as you think we are, Dave. What doesn't make sense to me is trying to program my generation's music to someone Katy Perry's age, and if you are trying to attract 20-somethings into THIS format, that is what you are doing. The music may be timeless, but that is extreme.

 

[Avid Listener]

And, just because stations with excessive playlists and absurd, obscure songs continue to exist in smaller markets, that does not mean they are well programmed. It means they have limited competition and are not achieving their full potential to reach and entertain audiences.

Who has been asking for "absurd, obscure songs"? How is a song off of an album that was in Billboard's Album Top 10, and that had two or three hit songs come off of that album "absurd" or "obscure"? If I was a fan of Queen, and listened to "A Night at the Opera" often, and the station plays "You're My Best Friend", "Love of My Life", and "Bohemian Rhapsody" in regular rotation, are you suggesting that I'd change the station of they played "39"? This despite the fact that no less than Brian May himself said the only reason that song got no radio airplay was because the label decided that three hits were enough and they wouldn't push a fourth?

Are you saying that "Why Does Love Got to Be So Sad?" is absurd or obscure just because it isn't "Layla" or "Bell Bottomed Blues"?

Like I said, it's clear that though you claim to know radio, you don't know diddly about music. (BTW, Bo Diddly was a musician.)

Yet time after time, stations that come in with focused listener-consulted playlists beat the bigger, deep playlist stations. The opposite seldom happens.

Which proves that radio ratings are as reliable as reading the entrails of a chicken.

Though not as messy.

 

[firepoint525]

Yet time after time, stations that come in with focused listener-consulted playlists beat the bigger, deep playlist stations. The opposite seldom happens.

Dave, I have repeatedly given you examples of where that is not the case.

Your like of bigger, broader playlists that cater to your specific taste to the exclusion of the opinions of other potential listeners is the essence of being an outlier.

Actually, the opposite is true. If you didn't include me in your "test," then I don't have a vote, essentially making your station a "dictatorship" as far as I am concerned. At least the Jack-FMs out there are intellectually honest with us, and don't lie to us, and pretend to want what we want.

There is little money out there for 55+, and even less for 65+. The reason is that advertisers, both local and national, don't focus on those groups as they find their advertising there has a lower return on investment than what they are seeking.
The real issue is that in most markets there just are not as many local advertisers left... the big box stores and WalMarts have driven many out of business. And others are such small local businesses that any radio station wastes their money reaching customers who would never drive the distance to the little business' location.

I would at least like to hear ads for those stores, because they at least have locations near me. Not my fave advertisers, of course, but still better than poison pills with the 800 number repeated. When I was in radio, we usually dubbed the co-op ads, and dropped our own local tags onto the end of them.

Agency accounts that use ratings to buy and who generally exclude 55+ are everything from McDonalds to the larger local car dealers.

They are probably missing the boat with regard to my parents, who STILL visit McDonald's, mainly for the senior discounts on coffee.

The 800 number ads are generally either must-clear network spots for unwired network sales or they are PI ads, with compensation based on response and run when a station is very light on inventory usage.

After the local Crapulus CH station (when it was here) ran the ONLY local ads that I ever heard over their frequency (and even those were promos (for THEM!) seeking new account execs), I paid attention to what they ran ads for. It was ONLY the national stuff. At least the occasional Home Depot ad might have had something of interest to me. The 800 number ads were about all that was left.

Further proof that you are an outlier.

Again, denigrating mine (or anyone else's) tastes in music does NOTHING to make me want to listen to your station. Give me a reason to tune in, not tune out.

 

[davideduardo]

Where did I say anything about the '50s?

I did not refer to anything you specifically mentioned; my comments are generic unless otherwise stated. The remaining "oldies" stations often do play some 50's material, so there is contrast between 60's based oldies stations which may have a smattering of 50's and 70's and 70's based classic hits stations that may have some 60's and an increasing amount of 80's songs.

But the real point of my posts has been that deep playlists that go beyond the consensus acceptance level of the target audience in any format do no service to the station or the listener.

Pretty much any station whose COL is anything other than the central main city could be considered a "rimshot."

The traditional definition of a rimshot is a station outside the metro "beaming in" to gain access to the larger pool of ad dollars to be found that way.

Your point about "anything except stations with a community of license identical to the market name" being a rimshot is wrong; most markets have many FMs licensed to suburbs that share the same antenna farms and transmitter sites as the "name city". Are KROQ and KSCA rimshots in LA? Is WHTZ a rimshot in New York?

But at the same time, we must remember that this is 2014, not 1975. I laugh at all these stations spending millions of $$$ trying to move their stick closer to downtown, when I can go to Best Buy, pick up a $12 patch cord, plug it into the wife's ipad, and any station that streams sounds like it is right next door on the car radio. We listened to retro AT40 on Hippie all the way into Alabama.

But most of radio's revenues today come from OTA ads, and that will be so for some time to come. And it is that OTA revenue that will permit the migration to new media platforms to succeed. But as of today, the money is in the "old media" platform so stations will still seek to have the best technical facility possible.

We aren't nearly as old as you think we are, Dave.

Very very few under-55's want to hear any but a few 60's songs. And those 60's songs that they do like will be those that have received continued broad exposure and are, thus, familiar. The deep cuts don't make the cut.

What doesn't make sense to me is trying to program my generation's music to someone Katy Perry's age, and if you are trying to attract 20-somethings into THIS format, that is what you are doing. The music may be timeless, but that is extreme.

Classic hits stations are targeted at 35-54. None are targeting any 20-something listeners. You are just wrong on this.

 

[firepoint525]

I did not refer to anything you mentioned. The remaining "oldies" stations often do play some 50's material, so there is contrast between 60's based oldies stations which may have a smattering of 50's and 70's and 70's based classic hits stations that may have some 60's and an increasing amount of 80's songs.
But the real point of my posts has been that deep playlists that go beyond the consensus acceptance level of the target audience in any format do no service to the station or the listener.

The only station near me still playing any '50s or early '60s is a joke of an AM station that has problems that far transcend playlist. If not for those problems, we could plug in that patchcord, and hear the music in quality similar to that of any other station that streams. (AFAIK, since they have been back on, they are not streaming, yet.)

The traditional definition of a rimshot is a station outside the metro "beaming in" to gain access to the larger pool of ad dollars to be found that way.
Your point about "anything except stations with a community of license identical to the market name" being a rimshot is wrong; most markets have many FMs licensed to suburbs that share the same antenna farms and transmitter sites as the "name city".

In that case, Hippie is NOT a "rimshot." Their COL is Bellevue, which is within metro Nashville. I live about a mile from their tower, in a neighboring county. And I can personally attest that they throw a listenable signal all over metro Nashville, listening with just a factory car radio, without the Ipad plugged into it.

But most of radio's revenues today come from OTA ads, and that will be so for some time to come. And it is that OTA revenue that will permit the migration to new media platforms to succeed. But as of today, the money is in the "old media" platform so stations will still seek to have the best technical facility possible.

You don't ever get the occasional sale from a listener logging in to the advertiser's web site? Might be a better question to ask the actual advertiser.

Very very few under-55's want to hear any but a few 60's songs. And those 60's songs that they do like will be those that have received continued broad exposure and are, thus, familiar. The deep cuts don't make the cut.
Classic hits stations are targeted at 35-54. None are targeting any 20-something listeners. You are just wrong on this.

Even a 35-year-old was born in 1979, making even many '80s songs a hard sell for them to listen to.

 

[davideduardo]

In that case, Hippie is NOT a "rimshot." Their COL is Bellevue, which is within metro Nashville. I live about a mile from their tower, in a neighboring county. And I can personally attest that they throw a listenable signal all over metro Nashville, listening with just a factory car radio, without the Ipad plugged into it.

95% of the in-home and at work listening comes from the 65 dbu contour, and WHPY's 65dbu covers 240,000 persons in a market of 1.6 million. Since 2/3 of radio listening does not take place in the car (and I grant you that considerable in-car listening happens out to around the 60 dbu), and the station's transmitter appears to be just outside the market, we have a "technical rimshot" here.

You don't ever get the occasional sale from a listener logging in to the advertiser's web site? Might be a better question to ask the actual advertiser.

Sure you do, but it is not the bulk of today's revenue stream.

Even a 35-year-old was born in 1979, making even many '80s songs a hard sell for them to listen to.

Not really. Since CHR stations have been playing gold back to the Drake era, those 35-year-olds heard songs from the 80's all over CHRs in the 90's. So they are familiar. Even many 70's songs that continued to get AC play in the 90's are also very familiar and acceptable.

 

[TheFonz]

Exactly. Play the hits. Let the competition play the other stuff.

Wow! I remember back when we were having this discussion on the '50s/'60s Oldies board. That was at the time Oldies music fans were leaving commercial radio in droves to find other sources for their music.

 

[firepoint525]

95% of the in-home and at work listening comes from the 65 dbu contour, and WHPY's 65dbu covers 240,000 persons in a market of 1.6 million. Since 2/3 of radio listening does not take place in the car (and I grant you that considerable in-car listening happens out to around the 60 dbu), and the station's transmitter appears to be just outside the market, we have a "technical rimshot" here.

I counter that by saying that 97.1's signal (and they are a K-Love station now) isn't any better. Plenty of hills and valleys where it at least briefly dropped out. And only reason why I don't give any home listening for those other areas is that I have not lived in those other areas since before Hippie came on air. It was moved in from Dickson, TN. I was offered a weekend position there when it was a Dickson station (1998 or so), but decided that it was too far of a drive from where I lived at the time.

Not really. Since CHR stations have been playing gold back to the Drake era, those 35-year-olds heard songs from the 80's all over CHRs in the 90's. So they are familiar. Even many 70's songs that continued to get AC play in the 90's are also very familiar and acceptable.

I am a 1963 model myself, and "remember" many songs from the '50s and '60s, but have been told by many "experts" on here that I cannot possibly remember them because I am "not old enough." No, not old enough to remember when they were hits, but definitely heard them on many "solid gold weekend"-type programs.

 

[firepoint525]

Wow! I remember back when we were having this discussion on the '50s/'60s Oldies board. That was at the time Oldies music fans were leaving commercial radio in droves to find other sources for their music.

We feel your pain, Fonzie. And yeah, we lost even '60s music (the first time) nearly a decade ago.

 

[Avid Listener]

I am a 1963 model myself, and "remember" many songs from the '50s and '60s, but have been told by many "experts" on here that I cannot possibly remember them because I am "not old enough." No, not old enough to remember when they were hits, but definitely heard them on many "solid gold weekend"-type programs.

I've said this many, many times before, and it remains true. I know more people between the ages of 12 and 30 who listen to mostly classic rock that is older than they are than I know people in that age group who only listen to recently recorded music. I at least as many people born before most classic rock artists were in their fresh airplay prime at those artists' concerts as I see old farts like myself. If anyone claims that they know "from personal interviews" that younger people aren't familiar with, and therefore do not like, classic hit songs and other music from the era designated by the broadcast industry suits as the "classic era", they've been bamboozled by the people they've interviewed or they did a piss-poor job of finding a "random" sample to talk to.

 

[CTListener]

This is ridiculous. Teens aren't listening to their grandfathers' music today in numbers any more significant than they were when we were the teenagers. There are always outliers, but the concert ticket sales and music downloads all point to teens by and large preferring the music that's being targeted at them. Today, that means heavily rhythmic, urban-leaning music, dance-pop, and yes, a little bit of rock, but not as performed by groups of 70-year-old men. "I know x number of people who..." always precedes a statistically worthless statement.

 

[Avid Listener]

This is ridiculous. Teens aren't listening to their grandfathers' music today in numbers any more significant than they were when we were the teenagers. There are always outliers, but the concert ticket sales and music downloads all point to teens by and large preferring the music that's being targeted at them. Today, that means heavily rhythmic, urban-leaning music, dance-pop, and yes, a little bit of rock, but not as performed by groups of 70-year-old men. "I know x number of people who..." always precedes a statistically worthless statement.

Note the age range I mentioned -- 12 to 30. Not just teenagers.

Also, people only need to download music that they don't already have. Everyone tends to download or otherwise purchase new music, since they already have the old music that they like.

And most important, most classic rock that younger audiences like was recorded by men (and women) in their 20's, 30's, and 40's at the time of recording. Only clueless suits pretend that the current age of a performer matters, not the sound that they created at the time that they created it.