Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

[Thomps2525]

I say this discussion has "run its course. And if I say it, then it must be true!

Discussing KRTH is akin to discussing abortion, the death penalty, illegal immigration, creation vs. evolution, or any number of other topics. There are two opposing viewpoints and it is very unlikely that either side will ever be able to sway the other side. KRTH has good ratings and a lot of people don't like KRTH. Case closed.

 

[michael hagerty]

Why be purposefully insulting? This was mild, but I gather there is an insult to be found. I also generally do not respond to these mild insults, but what is happening here is that a valued member of the Radio Discussions community no longer feels welcomed.

This site is for enthusiasts as well as pros. Opinions are varied. Backgrounds are diverse. All are welcomed. No one should have to explain why they are here.

Oldies76 is not a troll, he expresses his views and opinions articulately and intelligently. There is no reason to get rude with someone you disagree with.

If you are only here to say you are right and he is wrong, this is not the place to be.

I'm asking everyone to move on from this discussion unless you have something valuable to add. I'd rather not close the thread, but will if it seems it has run its course.

Please don't misunderstand. That was not purposefully or otherwise insulting.

Let's take the post in context:

Originally Posted by oldies76 View Post
I happen to enjoy small town radio and their methods more than stations like KRTH or CBS-FM. It fits my interests on music.

So what are you doing on the Los Angeles board and why are you posting on and starting threads about KRTH?

That's a legitimate question. Why spend months gainsaying the insights of people who have patiently explained how and why stations like KRTH work if it (and large-market radio in general) simply don't fit his interests?

 

[davideduardo]

Ask the average everyday listener in LA if they check the Arbitron(sic) ratings every month and see what they'll tell you. Or did you research that also?

Radio stations check the Nielsen ratings every week in the PPM markets and look at what the trends mean. And, of course, the ratings reasonably reflect what listeners are actually doing, not what they are allegedly "saying".

Once, many years ago, I took a Top 15 market's leading FM and changed the format. I no longer had any interest in the old ratings results for the old format nor did I care what the old format listeners thought about our new format (most of them hated it and we had to hire part-timers for over a week to answer the angry phone calls). I did not even care what the snarky newspaper radio columnists said about me or the station. What I cared about was what the current listeners were doing and that is all KRTH is going to be concerned about.

If I "ask around" I can find people who are unhappy with just about everything from the President to the performance of their flat-screen TV. Until you quantify the dissatisfied persons by age, gender,and other areas of stratification, you have no idea whether the nay-sayers are significant or not. In the case of my format switch, we got hundreds of nasty and angry calls a day for a week. We got absolutely no positive calls about the new format. We did not even get any song requests during the first several months... nothing about the new version of the station and tons of negatives and insults about the change. Oh, and the station debuted with a 22.5 share just three weeks after the change, six times the share of the old format.

 

[BOZ Profit]

Please don't misunderstand. That was not purposefully or otherwise insulting.


That's a legitimate question. Why spend months gainsaying the insights of people who have patiently explained how and why stations like KRTH work if it (and large-market radio in general) simply don't fit his interests?

Thanks for clarifying Michael. I think the enthusiasts feel they are being ganged up on by the pros.

You have all done an excellent job of explaining the "why decisions are made the way they are made" in corporate radio. But now...

And to all the pros responding to this and the KRTH posts, take a step out of your radio shoes for a moment and just be a regular listener. Remember how radio was and compare to how it is now. Is it better? That is subjective. Would the same decisions be made THEN as NOW if the same information was available then as now? Would the reasons be the same? They are rhetorical questions just to help you be more introspective...

Thanks to all!

 

[Thomps2525]

Never mind the KRTH discussion. David said that he "can find people who are unhappy with...the President." Honestly, that David can make some of the most outrageous claims!

By the way, the House Republicans just voted to sue Obama for abusing his executive powers regarding health care, undocumented immigrants and prisoner exchanges. We don't have a political forum where I can post the news. Actually, judging by the language used on that other site's political forum, I don't think we want one here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28565772

 

[michael hagerty]

Thanks for clarifying Michael. I think the enthusiasts feel they are being ganged up on by the pros.

You have all done an excellent job of explaining the "why decisions are made the way they are made" in corporate radio. But now...

And to all the pros responding to this and the KRTH posts, take a step out of your radio shoes for a moment and just be a regular listener. Remember how radio was and compare to how it is now. Is it better? That is subjective. Would the same decisions be made THEN as NOW if the same information was available then as now? Would the reasons be the same? They are rhetorical questions just to help you be more introspective...

Thanks to all!

Please take this in the spirit of discussion and not argument:

This is the Los Angeles board. It is market #2. The profitable stations are (with the exception of Saul Levine's Mt. Wilson group) "corporate radio".

The regular listeners have, time and again, voted with their dials and their pushbuttons. Radio that asks its typical listeners what they like and how they behave and then program to that win.

As to how radio was, back in the days when programmers flew by the seat of their pants, stations had fairly limited runs of success. KFWB was the number one hit music station for only five years. KRLA for two years, KHJ for 13. Today, using proven research methods? KIIS-FM has held the crown for 32 years.

No one, not the pros and not the listeners, benefit when a station has to change formats, or worse, go dark.

Finally, and I approach this one with the most trepidation, but it needs to be said:

This was once, and for many years, a thriving site with pros who gained from each other wisdom and insight into a business that many of us have devoted our lives to (I'm at 43 years and counting). Enthusiasts who were part of it learned and grew. Frankly, the pros have, over the past couple of years, been ganged up on by (some of) the enthusiasts, whose articulate and intelligent input often consists of "You're all wrong. I'll never believe you." Over and over again. For a year at a stretch. Many of the pros simply don't come here anymore. Some of the blame can go to the re-design, some to the shutdown, but a chunk of them headed for the door when it became wearisome dealing with the repetition and willful ignorance while attempting to engage in intelligent discussion.

I don't know your background in broadcasting. I assume it's significant for you to be entrusted with making decisions as to when to admonish or punish contributors. If so, then you certainly must be aware (especially as an employee of Streamline Publishing, which makes its money off the business end of the business) that broadcasting in major markets like Los Angeles works the way it does for a reason.

Posters insisting that stations like KRTH, which are the collaborative work and livelihood of dozens of extremely talented and dedicated people, is "crap" (as some of the enthusiasts have said more than once) is in fact insulting to those people, doesn't reflect the reality of the marketplace and will change nothing except the tone and makeup of these boards.

Again, I'd be interested in your response.

 

[davideduardo]

Remember how radio was and compare to how it is now. Is it better? That is subjective. Would the same decisions be made THEN as NOW if the same information was available then as now? Would the reasons be the same?

I'll answer with an anecdote.

The first time I did a music test for a station I both managed and programmed I thought it would be fun to "score" the first hundred songs or so myself based on what I thought listeners would say.

I was in for a big surprise. I was off by 20% on over two-thirds of the songs. And in particular, songs I thought were "over" were very much alive and ones I thought were keepers were stiffs.

The station was #1 in a 30 station market in its target of 18-49 women, and second overall to a talk station. It was not that I was doing a bad job. I just could do a better one with real listener based research instead of my personal feelings, evaluations, likes and dislikes.

It hurt to remove some of my favorite songs from the library. But the numbers went up and I learned to listen more to the listeners

 

[oldies76]

Many of the pros simply don't come here anymore. Some of the blame can go to the re-design, some to the shutdown, but a chunk of them headed for the door when it became wearisome dealing with the repetition and willful ignorance while attempting to engage in intelligent discussion.

I'm not ignorant Michael, not at all. You may disagree, yes, but that does not make us ignorant. And remember too, it's the pros weighing opinions with the music and radio enthusiasts and vice versa here, not the average everyday listeners that you suggest.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm not ignorant Michael, not at all. You may disagree, yes, but that does not make us ignorant.

Yes it does: 1.lacking knowledge or education in general or in a specific subject

 

[michael hagerty]

Synonyms: incomprehension of, unawareness of, unconsciousness of, unfamiliarity with, inexperience with, lack of knowledge about, lack of information about.

It's not an insult. It's a description of every one of us prior to learning.

The phrase I used, and I did not mention any poster by name, was "willful ignorance"...which is to continue as though ignorant after being exposed to knowledge.

 

[oldies76]

Yes it does: 1.lacking knowledge or education in general or in a specific subject

Sure, maybe I'm not as knowledgeable in your expertise, but neither are you guys on our expertise as well. Want to call it even then?

 

[TheBigA]

Sure, maybe I'm not as knowledgeable in your expertise, but neither are you guys on our expertise as well. Want to call it even then?

Actually I was a certified music expert for a chain of record stores at one time. I've written books and articles on the history of music.

 

[michael hagerty]

And I started out as a grade-A chart freak, able to cite you Billboard peak positions, number of weeks on the chart, the name of the record company and the color of the label. I could tell you the sequence of songs on most albums from memory. As I've said before, I have extremely wide and deep tastes in music that no single radio station can or could ever satisfy. And I learned how to get past that and program successful radio stations for mass audiences. Something I was ignorant of until I learned.

 

[michael hagerty]

The fact of the matter is that just about everyone who has programmed music radio:

1. Started out believing that he/she had phenomenal ears and could by the seat of their pants, play the "right" music.

2. Found out the hard way that didn't work.

3. Removed themselves from the process and stuck to the charts ("A hit is a hit is a hit"). Billboard was the New Testament. The Whitburn books were the Old Testament.

4. Found out the hard way that didn't work.

5. Went through the stages of grieving:

a) Denial ("This can't be right")

b) Anger ("What's the matter with these idiots out there?")

c) Bargaining ("If I can just get them to listen to these records, they'll like them")

d) Depression ("I have no idea what to do. Everything I know is wrong.")

e) Acceptance (learning from those who've been there and applying what has worked)


We've been there. But when your career, food and shelter are on the line if you're wrong, you learn considerably quicker.

 

[davideduardo]

Sure, maybe I'm not as knowledgeable in your expertise, but neither are you guys on our expertise as well. Want to call it even then?

I understand your belief that you have something to offer to radio that will benefit everyone by better programming.

The area where, and I have to bring in again a variation of the term "ignorance", you ignore reality. Reality is that the things that the very few people who think like you do not work.

And this is why I say that you are an outlier and that your ideas would be the downfall of any successful station that adopted them and the kiss of death for any new station that tried them.

 

[oldies76]

The area where, and I have to bring in again a variation of the term "ignorance", you ignore reality. Reality is that the things that the very few people who think like you do not work.

And reality is that many small town radio stations ignore your reality and side with people that enjoy music. Some of these stations are more successful than others. And the ones that run great stations like these and just play the music, do think like us. That's reality in 2014 for ya.

 

[TheBigA]

And reality is that many small town radio stations ignore your reality and side with people that enjoy music.

But once again, this is the LA board. Not a small town board. We're talking about what's working in LA.

 

[michael hagerty]

And reality is that many small town radio stations ignore your reality and side with people that enjoy music. Some of these stations are more successful than others. And the ones that run great stations like these and just play the music, do think like us. That's reality in 2014 for ya.

Reality is, as explained repeatedly, that those small town stations generally view music as what goes "in between" (as KSRW in Bishop puts it on their own online schedule) the local service elements that smalltown residents tune in for in large numbers and which actually pay the bills.

Because they are in unrated markets (and I have worked in a couple of those myself), they honestly don't know who is listening, when, for how long and what songs elicit tune-out.

They're not siding with anyone. They're doing what their limited resources allow them to do (research and ratings service subscriptions are prohibitively expensive for smaller stations). But even they can be (and have been) toppled by a second or third station in the market that comes along with a tighter, more focused approach. I've had it done to me, and I've done it to competitors.

Witness Joplin, MO (market #234--one of the smallest rated markets in America), where, as we discussed last year, a very tight Classic Hits came on the air, doubled its [prior numbers, blew the former #2 station down to #5 (and dead last among the FMs) in one book and now, 2 years later, still has a better number than the competition ever had. A small market is zero protection the moment someone comes along who has a better sense of the market's true tastes than your station does.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Why be purposefully insulting? This was mild, but I gather there is an insult to be found. I also generally do not respond to these mild insults, but what is happening here is that a valued member of the Radio Discussions community no longer feels welcomed.

This site is for enthusiasts as well as pros. Opinions are varied. Backgrounds are diverse. All are welcomed. No one should have to explain why they are here.

Oldies76 is not a troll, he expresses his views and opinions articulately and intelligently. There is no reason to get rude with someone you disagree with.

If you are only here to say you are right and he is wrong, this is not the place to be.

I'm asking everyone to move on from this discussion unless you have something valuable to add. I'd rather not close the thread, but will if it seems it has run its course.

I agree with the mod and have voiced similar comments on other threads. I would respectfully ask that he refrain from closing the thread. The site is well organized enough. If others tire of the thread, they can simply ignore it. I ignore threads that that I tire of or have no interest in often, without the need to tell those that are still interested and posting that the thread has "run its course". Those that are tired of this thread could maybe add to the discussion by posting a few new ones of their own. Nothing kills an old tired thread like a new exciting one, and they can move the site in that direction if they so choose.

I am all about choice - YOU choose to write or not write a new thread, YOU choose to engage in the same old conversation (or reply to said conversation) or YOU choose to just read along. It is all up to YOU.

Also, I would just like to point out that it is not necessary to always get the last word in, and doing so does not make you "right" or "win the argument". I often just let things go because to answer back just prolongs the conversation I wanted to end anyway - and thus let the other guy have the last word. If my post is strong enough, it can stand on its own regardless of whether or not it is last. If not, no amount of answering back will help it anyway.

Cheers and happy posting. Now if you'll excuse me, "Hotel California" is on again and I need to check out, er, Channel Flip.

 

[BOZ Profit]

First I have to say.. I can't take a couple hours off to run an errand and someone else emails me saying they are quitting the board! lol.. ah well.. can't please everyone. One from each side the argument so the score is still even! : )

Please take this in the spirit of discussion and not argument:

Always in the spirit of discussion, I agree.

This is the Los Angeles board. It is market #2. The profitable stations are (with the exception of Saul Levine's Mt. Wilson group) "corporate radio".

The regular listeners have, time and again, voted with their dials and their pushbuttons. Radio that asks its typical listeners what they like and how they behave and then program to that win.

As to how radio was, back in the days when programmers flew by the seat of their pants, stations had fairly limited runs of success. KFWB was the number one hit music station for only five years. KRLA for two years, KHJ for 13. Today, using proven research methods? KIIS-FM has held the crown for 32 years.

No one, not the pros and not the listeners, benefit when a station has to change formats, or worse, go dark.

Finally, and I approach this one with the most trepidation, but it needs to be said:

This was once, and for many years, a thriving site with pros who gained from each other wisdom and insight into a business that many of us have devoted our lives to (I'm at 43 years and counting). Enthusiasts who were part of it learned and grew. Frankly, the pros have, over the past couple of years, been ganged up on by (some of) the enthusiasts, whose articulate and intelligent input often consists of "You're all wrong. I'll never believe you." Over and over again. For a year at a stretch. Many of the pros simply don't come here anymore. Some of the blame can go to the re-design, some to the shutdown, but a chunk of them headed for the door when it became wearisome dealing with the repetition and willful ignorance while attempting to engage in intelligent discussion.

I can appreciate that the pros get tired of explaining the same information to the same people. It can get that way from my position managing the board and trying to explain to people to get along, over and over! So I am with you on that.. Should we create a "professionals only" section?

I don't know your background in broadcasting. I assume it's significant for you to be entrusted with making decisions as to when to admonish or punish contributors. If so, then you certainly must be aware (especially as an employee of Streamline Publishing, which makes its money off the business end of the business) that broadcasting in major markets like Los Angeles works the way it does for a reason.

Posters insisting that stations like KRTH, which are the collaborative work and livelihood of dozens of extremely talented and dedicated people, is "crap" (as some of the enthusiasts have said more than once) is in fact insulting to those people, doesn't reflect the reality of the marketplace and will change nothing except the tone and makeup of these boards.

Again, I'd be interested in your response.

I think your last paragraph is the one that the enthusiasts should reread. While I do appreciate the enthusiasts, and I'm sure you all do too because they are part of the listeners radio caters to.. I also concede that the constant verbal beating towards programmers will not change anything, not without a collective, vocal mass.

I think it can be hard for some to accept that there is little "heart" or "adventure" in the industry anymore for them, as there seemed to be in the past, and maybe that was all a mirage.. but it's all business, ratings and profits, now. Does that make sense?