Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

[davideduardo]

So-o-o-o I am simply a bean-counter's "expense"? I resent the label "freeloader".

You are freeloading in a sense by consuming the stream of a small, challenged for survival radio station. I'm surprised that they have not already put zoning on the stream, as having out-of-market listeners is of no benefit and costs them money.

Regarding your opinion about supporting the artists, why don't LA area radio stations support those deserving artists by actually PLAYING their music??

A radio station can only play a certain kind of music if they get enough of the "right kind" of listeners to be able to make a profit.

50's and 60's oldies will get lots of listeners in LA, but a station can not get advertisers to pay to run spots on such a format.

AAA has been tried several times over in LA, and the markets demographics and ethnic composition made them all highly unsuccessful.

BTW the streams are not free are they????

No, the station pays for the bandwidth and the digital content. Which is why I believe the "freeloading" comment was made. Of course, it is mostly the station's fault for allowing you access.

 

[davideduardo]

CC wouldn't TRY to put on Adult Album Alternative.

But they successfully operate 6 of them, including the grand-daddy of them all, KBCO in Denver. They also have AAA stations in places like Minneapolis, San Antonio and Mobile.

No, every station they launch is either a 200-song country station, a 400-song classic hits station or another CHR like we need Katy Perry on another channel.

Every station they have or relaunch has playlists that are about the same as stations owned by other companies in the same format.

The issue with AAA is that it does not work in every market, and launching new ones is particularly hard. For example, it's been tried several times in LA, under different owners with the same unimpressive results.

 

[davideduardo]

There are a few stations that have limited streaming to local area only. And how do I pay for a station down in California to stream? By tuning it on and listening to a song? Makes no sense.

When you listen to a song on an out of market station, you cost them money for both the bandwidth increment and the average session fee on digital streaming. In exchange, the station gets no benefit from your listening.

 

[Thomps2525]

David, I am not a broadcast executive, nor do I play one on tv...but doesn't each radio station base its advertising rates on the estimated number of listeners? Can't the stations who stream online include the out-of-market listeners in their audience estimates and therefore be able to charge more for advertising, enough to recoup the costs of streaming?

 

[davideduardo]

David, I am not a broadcast executive, nor do I play one on tv...but doesn't each radio station base its advertising rates on the estimated number of listeners? Can't the stations who stream online include the out-of-market listeners in their audience estimates and therefore be able to charge more for advertising, enough to recoup the costs of streaming?

Radio is bought as a local market medium for the most part. Advertisers buying the local market don't pay for listening in Minnesota.

In fact, only two LA stations or groups even buys the IE book... and both of them are Spanish language broadcasters.

This is even more obvious when you see that, despite having good numbers in the IE, LA stations don't charge a penny more for the IE audiences as advertisers won't pay for it.

 

[TheBigA]

The bigger problem has to do with the arcane way radio stations must pay streaming royalties. They are penalized for their success. So popular streams are less profitable than unpopular streams. And all the music business does is complain that they don't get paid enough.

So for example, a small station that plays a wider range of music, may have more people listening to its online stream than are actually listening in market. If so, they may be paying a higher rate per streamer than the top-rated corporate station in the same town. So the out of town streamer gets to listen to their favorite music for free, and the radio station is losing money. Not a good business model.

The economics of the music business has changed drastically in the last 15 years. It used to be a simple process of buying records, and the money goes to the artists and labels. Now, with all the platforms, it's way more complicated, and each platform has a different way of paying the musicians. Today, record labels are in the content licensing business. I feel it's extremely important for music consumers to understand how the music business has changed, and how their responsibilities as fans have changed. Because the future of music rests in the hands of the fans who are the lifeblood of the system.

 

[stevensonair]

The Minneapolis station isn't Triple A, it was Triple A before CC bought it, like KBCO and they slowly but surely transitioned it to Hot AC. And there is no Triple A, Clear Channel or otherwise, in San Antonio. The Mobile station is locally owned.

Apart from Fort Collins, CO (a KBCO clone on a translator) - I can't think of a Triple A format that was launched, as a new product by Clear Channel and had long term success. The ones they did have (KTCZ) and still have (KBCO) were the creations of other companies and creative teams and had market longevity years before, thus protecting them somewhat.

 

[michael hagerty]

And then there's the analog dollars/digital dimes issue. Advertisers pay a fraction for online audiences compared to broadcast. I worked for a large market network TV affiliate a few years ago where our website had a much larger audience than the TV station. The TV station billed almost $20 million a year. The website: $1 million. Barely.

 

[gr8oldies]

There is not a single person on this board, any other radio message board, radio Facebook group or anything like it who is a typical listener. Zero, zip, nada. You want radio to put your personal iPod on a 50,000 watt transmitter. It's not going to happen. Commercial radio's job is to bring demographically desirable ears to advertisers-period. If playing "Dominique" in morning drive would do that, KRTH would be doing that. You all tell us how these greedy SOBs just want to make money, then you tell us if they only ditched the hits and started playing the B sides they'd rocket to number one. All the proof says otherwise.

 

[Thomps2525]

Michael, I won't ask you to name that tv station...but in this age of Internet and iPads and iPhones and Hulu and tv apps and "mobile tv," is that station a rare exception or are there a lot of other stations with an online audience that outnumbers the traditional viewing audience?

 

[michael hagerty]

The Minneapolis station isn't Triple A, it was Triple A before CC bought it, like KBCO and they slowly but surely transitioned it to Hot AC. And there is no Triple A, Clear Channel or otherwise, in San Antonio. The Mobile station is locally owned.

Apart from Fort Collins, CO (a KBCO clone on a translator) - I can't think of a Triple A format that was launched, as a new product by Clear Channel and had long term success. The ones they did have (KTCZ) and still have (KBCO) were the creations of other companies and creative teams and had market longevity years before, thus protecting them somewhat.

The Minneapolis station shows some songs in their playlist that argue Triple A and not Hot AC ("These Dreams of You" by Van Morrison, "You've Got A Friend" by James Taylor, Nick Drake's "Fruit Tree", Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's "Helpless", Eva Cassidy's "Fields of Gold", Paul Simon's "Train In The Distance", Bob Dylan's "Knocking on Heaven's Door" and I could go on...).

Now: Can you think of a Triple A format that was launched, as a new product by any other company in the past decade that has had long-term success?

 

[stevensonair]

Not to nitpick but I'd question that online log. I've listened on their terrestrial signal and it was Calvin Harris, Katy Perry, American Authors, all the usual Hot AC tracks and nothing like that.They were removed from the Triple A panel and put on the Hot AC on Mediabase.. I could go on. It's been established that KTCZ is no longer a Triple A. You're probably pulling those from the Acoustic Sunrise plays, which are not the main format.

My contention also wasn't that Triple A was a rousing success for anyone in the past decade. I was referring specifically to the incorrect facts of David's post.

The successful Triple A operators are mostly established outlets run by local companies in markets friendly to the format, or noncommercial.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael, I won't ask you to name that tv station...but in this age of Internet and iPads and iPhones and Hulu and tv apps and "mobile tv," is that station a rare exception or are there a lot of other stations with an online audience that outnumbers the traditional viewing audience?

Steve, the situation was a bit lopsided in that the station was struggling in the ratings (usually 4th out of 5 news stations) but the website was #2 (and #1 was a combined TV/newspaper site, giving it a distinct advantage). But the point is the economics. A poorly-performing broadcast station was billing 20 times what a strongly-performing website under the same brand billed. And I understand that while advertisers are moving more dollars toward online, the price per pair of eyeballs is still very, very low.

 

[davideduardo]

The Minneapolis station isn't Triple A, it was Triple A before CC bought it, like KBCO and they slowly but surely transitioned it to Hot AC.

Sorry, the source I have still listed it as AAA. All three that I listed have migrated to AC formats of some kind. I looked at the ratings and billings and saw why they dropped AAA. It was not working.

Apart from Fort Collins, CO (a KBCO clone on a translator) - I can't think of a Triple A format that was launched, as a new product by Clear Channel and had long term success. The ones they did have (KTCZ) and still have (KBCO) were the creations of other companies and creative teams and had market longevity years before, thus protecting them somewhat.

I can't think of a successful new AAA in a decade or more. And few of the heritage AAA stations under any owner have near the shares they had decades ago.

In any case, the point is that Clear does have an AAA or two, and they do have they typical deep AAA libraries.

 

[Thomps2525]

In 2006, Clear Channel launched a---or is it "an"?---AAA format in Des Moines. KPTL "Capital 106.3" lasted around five years before the format evolved evolved into hot AC. On December 26, 2013, KPTL swapped formats with KCCQ and is now KDXA "Alt 106.3." Des Moines' original AAA station, KFMG, went off the air in 1996 but returned in 1997 as a low-power FM at 99.1. You can listen online. You can also donate money via cash, check, money order or credit card. I know general manager Ron Sorenson would like that.

http://www.kfmg991.org/

 

[stevensonair]

I forgot about Capital. They also tried a very mainstream AAA on 95.1 in Fargo as the River, before Ingstad bought it.

 

[Thomps2525]

95.1 is now a country station, "Bob FM" (KBVB). I'm hoping to live long enough to see all the Jacks and Jills and Bobs and Hanks and Alices quit using people's names and go back to using their call letters. Actually I wish every station would identify itself by call letters instead of the cutesy names (Kiss, Power, Easy, Sunny, Kool, Hot, Fox, Hawk, Wolf, Eagle, Oasis, et al).

http://www.bob95fm.com/

 

[TheBigA]

I wish every station would identify itself by call letters

I wish gas was still 30 cents a gallon too.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually I wish every station would identify itself by call letters instead of the cutesy names (Kiss, Power, Easy, Sunny, Kool, Hot, Fox, Hawk, Wolf, Eagle, Oasis, et al).

Quite a few years back, when names were becoming more popular, a study was done. People were asked in a couple of US markets where call letters still prevailed how many stations they could name. The average was between 5 and 6. They also did the same questioning in a major market in Mexico where virtually every station used names and not call letters. They recall was between 12 and 13 stations.

The conclusion was that names are a much more effective identifier and much more memorable. And since this was back in the days of the diary when memory was everything, it was even more important.

 

[oldies76]

And YES there are teens, and pre-teens who like some 60s and 70s music. I went into a record store back in the Seattle area one time and saw a 12 or 13 year old, at the listening station, with headphones over his ears, listening to the sweet sounds of an old LP. I wanted to high five him for that. SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY DOESN'T LISTEN TO AN IPOD FULL OF RAP AND TOP 40 MUSIC!

Songs once popular should still be aired. Like I said before, there's too many 1980s and early 1990s AC songs that have not been spun on major market stations in years. Some by ordinary acts like Elton John and Billy Joel!

I agree with you 100%. And too many 70's are being missed as well.