Why is AM still around?

[Shredder]

you would think that the audience that used to listen to it back in the days when it was still all music has long since passed or given up on radio.
My limited experience with AM shows the audio quality is non existent. it's a dumping ground for political blow hard talk shows and news info update services. I've only heard one station actually still playing oldies music (1250 I think).

is there a reason why AM is still around? It can't possibly be profitable in this day and age.

I think A better idea for AM, would be to start up 'niche' music stations that most people think wouldn't work on FM. A Soundtracks station, Big Band music, all 50's all the time. Jazz, Classical, Martini Lounge..program it in a fun way, I'd give it a look. if that is being done, it doesn't seem to be done in this area.

 

[TheBigA]

I think A better idea for AM, would be to start up 'niche' music stations that most people think wouldn't work on FM.

If you think they wouldn't work on FM, why would they work on AM? It's not like AM is cheaper to operate. It's actually more expensive.

In answer to your question, you'd be surprised how many people still have POTS lines in their house. I have been cell-only for 10 years. Millions of people still use roof antennas for TV. Millions of people take trains to work. I can't understand why 19th century transportation still works today.

 

[JoshTheRadioDude]

AM is still around because the sports stations haven't all moved to FM yet. That's about it. It's certainly not the politicized news/talk format that's keeping it on the air. Or the religious programming. Or the ethnic programming. Or the brokered programming. Or what little music programming is still left. It's still there because it's the last resort. If no one on FM is doing sports and the band is full, at least one AM station still has something to work with. But that state of affairs isn't long for this world. AM is dead, it just doesn't know it yet.

 

[L Chanon Gade]

If you think they wouldn't work on FM, why would they work on AM? It's not like AM is cheaper to operate. It's actually more expensive.

In answer to your question, you'd be surprised how many people still have POTS lines in their house. I have been cell-only for 10 years. Millions of people still use roof antennas for TV. Millions of people take trains to work. I can't understand why 19th century transportation still works today.

No, it isn't cheaper. Access to the combiner on the ESB is approx $49,000/mo. Only the electricity is cheaper since most of what it up there are in the 3-4.8kw range. The are other cheaper options such as 4Times Square and possible some of the new 'supertall" buildings going up. But and amortized AM is still less expensive -at least in this market.

"Cheap" is all relative if no body listens.

Chanon

 

[TheBigA]

No, it isn't cheaper. Access to the combiner on the ESB is approx $49,000/mo. Only the electricity is cheaper since most of what it up there are in the 3-4.8kw range. The are other cheaper options such as 4Times Square and possible some of the new 'supertall" buildings going up.

AM is all about ground waves, so putting AM on tall buildings isn't a good idea. That's why all the AM towers are in NJ.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

No, it isn't cheaper. Access to the combiner on the ESB is approx $49,000/mo. Only the electricity is cheaper since most of what it up there are in the 3-4.8kw range. The are other cheaper options such as 4Times Square and possible some of the new 'supertall" buildings going up. But and amortized AM is still less expensive -at least in this market.

Even if your financial analysis is accurate FOR YOUR MARKET.... we can't build a national policy based on what it costs to run the handful of FM stations that cluster on tall buildings in Manhattan.

At the other end of the spectrum (costwise) would be a 5kw AM operating in Iowa that needs a very expensive piece of land to spread out 4 or 5 towers, while a new comer to the market might be a class A FM with a 20 foot tower on top of a 4 story office building in the county seat. AM stations that are directional have monumental expenses keeping multiple towers maintained, lit and consulted.

 

[davideduardo]

No, it isn't cheaper. Access to the combiner on the ESB is approx $49,000/mo.

The discussion, as has been mentioned in BigA's post, is about AM stations.

An AM needs a large piece of land, which in turn means high rent in most urban areas. Or it means a large capital expenditure with no direct return plus property taxes, permits, grounds maintenance, insurance and the like.

A directional AM site in New York likely costs nearly as much to operate as the rental on an ESB port.

Just recently, in Los Angeles, two AM stations have had the land sold out from under them as the property was worth more than the stations.

KHJ moved to an inferior site, and was sold for $9 million. The land was sold for over $30 million.

KABC will have to move, as Cumulus is selling the AM site for development, with the valuation over $70 million. The station is only worth a bit more than KHJ.

 

[TheBigA]

KABC will have to move, as Cumulus is selling the AM site for development, with the valuation over $70 million. The station is only worth a bit more than KHJ.

As I recall, there are oil wells across the street from KABC/KLOS. Be funny if they discover oil on the Cumulus property. Really funny.

 

[MarioMania]

How much just for small AM Station like 10 watts in a small town

 

[davideduardo]

How much just for small AM Station like 10 watts in a small town

Commercial AM's have not been licensed for 10 watts since the 20's. From the 30's until a few decades ago, the minimum daytime power was 100 watts.

You can get a 1 kw daytimer in some rural community for less than $100 k. The reason why it would be so cheap is that it is likely to be losing money, or off the air. And it's likely it can't make money, although there is almost always someone who thinks they can.

 

[davideduardo]

As I recall, there are oil wells across the street from KABC/KLOS. Be funny if they discover oil on the Cumulus property. Really funny.

I believe the mineral rights for the whole La Cienaga area were negotiated many decades ago. The wells are up the hill, in any case.

 

[L Chanon Gade]

If you think they wouldn't work on FM, why would they work on AM? It's not like AM is cheaper to operate. It's actually more expensive.

That was the sentence I was responding to and, in this market, it is fact that the ongoing cost of prime FM location is the single greatest technical cost. No, I'm not talking about talent, insurance, studios etc.

Most of the AM sticks were either originally located in waste areas of New Jersey (WMCA-WNYC-a is in a swamp) or recently banished to areas that will likely never see development that threatens them.

I can't speak about things out in outhouse country, but in the NYC metro area as AMs go dark it is likely that the land they occupy will just be reclaimed by nature.

Chan

 

[davideduardo]

Most of the AM sticks were either originally located in waste areas of New Jersey (WMCA-WNYC-a is in a swamp) or recently banished to areas that will likely never see development that threatens them.

Even if the land is inexpensive... or was so decades ago... the cost of maintaining towers in marshland is very high. Towers do not last very long, ground systems deteriorate... and all manner of insurance and taxes have to be paid on the sites.

And stations that have to rebuild sites know that building a directional system can run into the millions, and even more in marshlands where towers typically sit on pilings just like a wharf.

And those not on marshlands, like the WPAT site in Clifton, are on high-tax valuable real estate which is often worth more than the station itself. Recently, someone looked at the tax value of the WQEW site and found it is assessed at over $5 million.

I can't speak about things out in outhouse country,

That's demeaning and insulting and likely not true of any town with a radio station. No city is the "center of the world".

but in the NYC metro area as AMs go dark it is likely that the land they occupy will

That does not change the cost of building and maintaining those sites while the stations still operate.

 

[L Chanon Gade]

"Even if the land is inexpensive... or was so decades ago... the cost of maintaining towers in marshland is very high. Towers do not last very long, ground systems deteriorate... and all manner of insurance and taxes have to be paid on the site"

David, both <CA and NYC-a are on MCA's original Blaw-Knox towers. They date from 1940-41 as does the building. The ATUs and transmitter suffered significant damage due to Sandy. Hopefully, they won't have to go through this again.

"And those not on marshlands, like the WPAT site in Clifton, are on high-tax valuable real estate which is often worth more than the station itself. Recently, someone looked at the tax value of the WQEW site and found it is assessed at over $5 million. "

I can't comment on WPAT, WQEW is in an area that I am familiar with out in Maspeth Queens. It sits in the most industrialized section and is close to a Region-2 Superfund site.
http://www.epa.gov/region2/superfund/npl/newtowncreek/

One of the consistent problems encountered in trying to redevelop sites in this area is toxic chemicals dumped by the factories -some of which still inhabit the area. Even IF the land is worth $5m there remain two questions: What would be permitted to replace it given the likely remediation requirement and, what to do with the radio station. Obviously, the station has to go if the land is to be reused. Who will pay the likely stick price of $10-15m for a piece of land that is problematic and worth $5m at best?

My guess is that site remains status-quo till no more "profit" can be generated from it. Then scrapped and the land sold...for a lot less than current estimates.

Sorry about the "outhouse" comment. I live in Manhattan and often get sick of how self-centered this city is. Bangkok is even worse in that regard.

Chan

 

[davideduardo]

David, both <CA and NYC-a are on MCA's original Blaw-Knox towers. They date from 1940-41 as does the building. The ATUs and transmitter suffered significant damage due to Sandy. Hopefully, they won't have to go through this again.

The Salem engineer who rebuilt the site poured lots of money into it, including raising the level of the catwalks, new guy anchors and lots of other stuff. Flooding is just one of the hazards of lowland-loving AM broadcasting.

On the other hand, WADO took down the diamond Blaw Know as it not only was going to be hard to incorporate in the new 50 kw pattern, but the pilings underneath were deteriorating and the tower was slowly sinking. Just this year, another of the old towers had to be replaced and new pilings put in. All the marshland sites have these issues.

I can't comment on WPAT, WQEW is in an area that I am familiar with out in Maspeth Queens. It sits in the most industrialized section and is close to a Region-2 Superfund site.

WPAT is in a mixed residential area of Clifton and the land has to be worth a good amount as there are likely no distressed properties around there for development and the area is fairly nice.

One of the consistent problems encountered in trying to redevelop sites in this area is toxic chemicals dumped by the factories -some of which still inhabit the area. Even IF the land is worth $5m there remain two questions: What would be permitted to replace it given the likely remediation requirement and, what to do with the radio station. Obviously, the station has to go if the land is to be reused. Who will pay the likely stick price of $10-15m for a piece of land that is problematic and worth $5m at best?

The radio station would be best served by moving to New Jersey and diplexing with someone. Given the high dial position and single station on-channel protection, it could likely work on several of the systems quite nicely. The land may be near some clean-up sites, but it may not itself have issues as it's been a radio station site for eons. Of course, there is the potential for seepage in all that area. Still, getting rid of the land and improving the signal are good incentives.

My guess is that site remains status-quo till no more "profit" can be generated from it. Then scrapped and the land sold...for a lot less than current estimates.

I don't know the tax rate on the Queens property, but if renting to diplex is of comparable cost, the gains in signal make it worthwhile.

Sorry about the "outhouse" comment. I live in Manhattan and often get sick of how self-centered this city is. Bangkok is even worse in that regard.

It's common to all big economic center cities, from Buenos Aires to Mumbai.

 

[kenglish]

How much just for small AM Station like 10 watts in a small town

You'd still need a decent tower, and that requires some land.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

How much just for small AM Station like 10 watts in a small town

There are maybe 40,000 different answers to your question. As someone has already pointed out to you, I don't know that the FCC would grant q 100 watt station today so small AM station usually means 250, 500 or 1,000 watts.

you pretty well need at least one acre of land to plant even the smallest set of ground system radials. If you have a lower frequency... 800 to 1000 kHZ, you will probably want 3 acres.... minimum.

In small towns we used to get some property on a back street at the edge of town, or out beside someone's farm house on a rural road. I had some land to sell in Arkansas not too many years ago and $600 to $700 might buy you an acre. Here in North Georgia even people on back roads assume they should get something like the folks in town got when they sold their land for the new Walmart store so they are dreaming of 50, 60, maybe $80,000 per acre. But even back street somewhat rural land can still command 8 to &16,000 per acre.

Here is the dillema. "Back in the Day"... just go hide the small radio station on a back street or a farm road. Build your office and studio out there if you like. Or if you want an in-town studio, it used to be affordable to have one program loop from the phone company and one transmitter control loop from the phone company. Today the phone companies don't seem excited about provided new lines like that, and chances are when it gives trouble, the only technician they have who understands "program loops" may be 3 hours away and book up for the next 4 days.

Radio is not quite the talk of the town like it once was, so to make sure the locals don't forget that there is a radio station, It is GOOD today to have an in-town, prominent, visible location. And there are still a number of existing AM stations with an in-town studio and a cow pasture transmitter... in areas where the seller of the existing station isn't looking to convince you the transmitter site is worth $80,000 per acre. And the phone loops may be in place.

So now you begin thinking: Forget the phone company. I will install a microwave STL (studio-transmitter link) to handle the audio and transmitter control. (cue the sound of the cash register going KaChing!) Now old retired broadcast engineer a few miles away may look at you and say: Sorry, I don't have the tools or smarts to maintain the microwave. (cue the sound of the cash register again.)

I could write two or three more screens full of 'chit chat and crap' about the factors that affect the cost of operating, maintaining, installing or relocating a "small" radio station... AM or FM.

Now, I have written about the lowest price and lowest cost radio stations. Little stations out in a rural area. Forget about the earlier discussion of the costs of station in NYC. Think about regional towns. Ft. Smith, Arkansas. Madison, WI. Mt. Pleasant, MI. Bowling Green, Ky. Some of these towns are "on a roll" and tower sites are going to be hard to zone (NO ONE wants one in their back yard!) and cities today demand curbs, paved driveways, parking lots that meet code, and that ubiquitous pond to retain overflow water after a heavy down-pour.

And OSHA will probably demand a restroom even in the transmitter shack! (Cue the plumbers! Ka-Ching.)

When it comes to how to do radio, and the economics of radio, and legalities of radio... it ain't 1959 anymore!

 

[AMRocks]

Imagine, if you will, the AM dial in 20 years. Nearly all the stations silent, except for the BIG ones. WCBS, WABC, WGN, WSB, KFI etc. There would likely be a few regional stations that do well, too. Those powerhouses could really up their power and coverage. It would be like the "old days" again, when you could be in Florida and listen to KDKA. LOL The FCC might even grant some new BIG stations on those more local frequencies like 1450. Non-directional and lots of power. Might be worth it for a company to do that.

The biggest problem would be, by that time,they might all be running the same damn satellite talk programming.

 

[JoshTheRadioDude]

And in 20 years, everyone will be listening on their connected mobile devices, providing them with better audio quality, more content options, more interactivity and an experience better tailored to their personal tastes.

AM's dead. It's not coming back.

 

[TheBigA]

Imagine, if you will, the AM dial in 20 years. Nearly all the stations silent, except for the BIG ones.

The interesting part about that is 20 years ago, we already knew AM was in trouble. Legendary owners like GE, NBC, and National Life were selling off heritage stations like WSM and WNBC. The ONLY thing that kept AM alive was the talk radio boom and the 96 Telecom Act, that required companies to buy a certain number of AMs if they wanted to buy FMs. Now, 20 years later, we need more action from the FCC, but I don't expect anything to come. Without either some change in regulations, or some type of legislation, this American resource will disappear. Because there's nothing anyone in radio can do about it.