**Possible** flight from 950 for WWJ??

[1L6E6VHF]

Websites known as "Michiguide" and "The Deal" are reporting that a buyer for the Detroit area Radio Disney station WFDF (910) suddenly backed out, stating that they thought WFDF did not cover Detroit (the city proper) well enough, and that they were negotiating to buy an AM from CBS Radio with better coverage than WFDF.

Note that the only AM station in the market owned by CBS with better coverage than WFDF is WWJ. I seriously doubt CBS would just drop out of operating WWJ at this point, with the revenue and ratings it is pulling. I think they would only be willing to leave 50kW on 950 if they were to move to FM or acquire the 50kW ND facility and 760 frequency from WJR.

Two other thoughts come to mind. The station in question could be WXYT (AM) 1270, if either the new buyer only intends to serve the Black audience (WCHB, WDRJ or WEXL as the buyer?), or if the buyer's definition of "coverage" is potential listenership, as 910 is not a dial setting familiar to most in the Detroit area (being very weak in the Detroit area before this century), whereas the 1270 dial spot is legendary.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The rumor is this on the Michigan Radio Buzzboard. CBS is buying WLW and will move 700 to Detroit during a major change window, and turn in WNZK's license after buying it from Birach. WWJ will move to 700 with 50 kW ND U. WXYT will move to 950. 1270 will move back to Southfield ND D and 2 towers night, WFDF will move back to Flint, and WFRO 900 will return to the air in Fremont, when the FCC adopts its new "Mulligan" policy for reversing bad decisions. I read it on the Internet. It must be true.

Actually, this would be the easiest way to get another Class A AM into Detroit. The plan was humorously devised after an inquiry was made as to how Detroit could get another comparable AM facility to WJR.

Near zero chance of any of this happening, but that's about what it would take. The WLW plan was the LEAST disruptive way to accomplish another Class A AM in Detroit comparable to WJR.

 

[FredLeonard]

The rumor is this on the Michigan Radio Buzzboard. CBS is buying WLW and will move 700 to Detroit during a major change window, and turn in WNZK's license after buying it from Birach. WWJ will move to 700 with 50 kW ND U. WXYT will move to 950. 1270 will move back to Southfield ND D and 2 towers night, WFDF will move back to Flint, and WFRO 900 will return to the air in Fremont, when the FCC adopts its new "Mulligan" policy for reversing bad decisions. I read it on the Internet. It must be true.

Actually, this would be the easiest way to get another Class A AM into Detroit. The plan was humorously devised after an inquiry was made as to how Detroit could get another comparable AM facility to WJR.

Near zero chance of any of this happening, but that's about what it would take. The WLW plan was the LEAST disruptive way to accomplish another Class A AM in Detroit comparable to WJR.

In anticipation of this "move," WJR has hired a voodoo priestess to resurrect J.P.

Meanwhile, CBS has paid off Stephen Harper to exempt The Big 8 from Canadian content and ownership rules. CBS will acquire the station and move the all news format there.

1310 is returning to the air with a top 40 format.

WLW is going back to 500,000 kw. The NAB is pushing to American Dental Association to require dentists to use tooth fillings that will receive the station (since their plan to have smartphones receive radio is going nowhere).

 

[jry]

In anticipation of this "move," WJR has hired a voodoo priestess to resurrect J.P.

Meanwhile, CBS has paid off Stephen Harper to exempt The Big 8 from Canadian content and ownership rules. CBS will acquire the station and move the all news format there.

1310 is returning to the air with a top 40 format.

WLW is going back to 500,000 kw. The NAB is pushing to American Dental Association to require dentists to use tooth fillings that will receive the station (since their plan to have smartphones receive radio is going nowhere).

Full moon out?

 

[SarasotaJim]

Hey, Fred! At least you get credit as possibly the only American who knows who Stephen Harper is.

 

[FredLeonard]

And a good morning to both of you, too.

A note on "trolling"

Dear Members,

We are seeing an uptick in trolling behavior, in particular on this forum. If you do not know what internet trolling is, the following from Wikipedia should sort you out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(...t)#cite_note-7

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,
1. by posting inflammatory,
2. extraneous,
3. or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog),
4. either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
5. or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

While this sense of the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling also used to describe intentionally provocative actions and harassment outside of an online context. For example, mass media has used troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families.

Trolling behavior is ultimately a disruption of the forums and in violation of our Terms of Service.

Please understand that our Terms will be enforced if this behavior continues. If you suspect someone is trying to "troll" you, please do not respond to them. Contact us at [email protected] or through private message.

Sincerely,

RD Rep

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The problem with CKLW is that it has a null toward much of the Detroit area, equivalent to about 5000 watts. With all the new noise, it would be problematic. Stephen Harper wouldn't be able to help this. In the old days, there were just dimmer switches and TV synch oscillator harmonics.

 

[FredLeonard]

Possibly I should have made myself clear. The early suggestions in this thread seem so improbable, that I decided to engage in some full blown surrealism.

Hell is not freezing over and WLW is staying in Cincinnati.

Despite the success of WTOP on FM, CBS is not showing signs in any of its markets of moving their all news stations to FM. 'J is going to stay where it is for the foreseeable future. There is no track record to suggest that moving to FM gets improved demos for all news, and 'J does not have the kind of holes in its coverage area that WTOP 1500 AM did.

 

[Eric B]

The report of WFDF being possibly sold, and the buyer ultimately backing out, seems to be suspect at best. A quick check of the FCC Database shows no Assignment Of License filed to even support this.

And...as for whomever this was wishing to instead buy a CBS station...that too is nothing more than a pipe dream. As has correctly been stated, WWJ is way too valuable as it currently is -- seems to bill well, and is also a huge ratings magnet. And what about WXYT? Unfortunately, I don't think that one's going anywhere either. CBS needs a place to clear their precious CBS Sports Network, and 1270's the place for it. Period, paragraph, end of story.

--Eric B
Carleton, MI

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Managers have often asked if it was possible to have another station facility in Detroit like WJR, 50000 watts, nondirectional, fulltime. After answering no so many times, it was asked what would have to happen for Detroit to have another such a facility. This was the simplest plan possible, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen. When asked to do the nearly impossible, this is what you come up with. But it sure shook up some people. Now maybe they won't keep asking for the impossible.

But wouldn't WWJ be awesome as 50000 ND-U on 700?

 

[FredLeonard]

It's a little late for that, or even a move to FM. A somewhat improved signal is not going to get post-Baby Boomers listening to all news radio nor major advertisers who don't buy radio to start buying it.

Maybe, if the FCC had 20 years ago required all new receivers to get 76-88 and when analog TV shut down, to move all AM stations to the expanded FM band AM stations might have more of a future - but no.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

Hell will freeze over next week (along with Pinckney, Dexter and Chelsea) if the weather forecasters prove to be correct.

An assignment of license app would not have been filed with the FCC until after a prospective buyer would have agreed in final to make the deal, and the (potential/possible/apocryphal) buyer backed out before it got to that stage.

One thing that would be quite possible would be for a prospective buyer to tell RD a (possibly false) story about being able to buy a superior facility in an attempt to "lowball" RD into selling WFDF to them cheaper.

WXYT and WFDF have coverages that are roughly equal, but different. WFDF beams near true north with a null to the northeast to protect CKNX (920) in Wingham. Its signal is not very good on Detroit's East Side and much of Macomb County. WXYT beams NNE and has a soft null to the NNW to (loosely) protect WMKT in Charlevoix (about 16mV/m NIF) and a deeper null to protect WKBF in Rock Island IL. If WRDJ, WEXL or WCHB wanted to buy either to improve their coverage, WXYT would be better. WDTK or WDFN would be better off with WFDF.

Washington is not the only market where CBS has turned to FM for their all-news outlet. They also have an all-news FM in Chicago. Granted, they only did this after another FM flipped to all-news in an attempt to plunder WBBM's audience, and WBBM (AM) remains all-news with AM/FM simulcast (but WBBM is a special case - a 50kW ND Class A on a relatively low frequency on excellent radio soil, it has better coverage than 99% of the other AMs and is a rare case where the AM really does have better coverage than the FM). WWJ's coverage is not perfect. Its signal is only moderate in most of Macomb county and just plain lousy on the far shore of Lake St. Clair (e.g. Anchor Bay), and there are stretch commuters in these areas who want that traffic and weather together on the eights. I have a friend in Macomb Twp. who lost WWJ to an incessant buzz in his home (where he gets roughly 5mV/m, within NIF, day and night). One day he dropped his cable/internet/alarm provider and went to separate companies for each - the alarm system was changed, and now he gets WWJ perfectly. I was touring WCCO's TL last summer, and was speaking to someone in our entourage who has probably visited more TLs than any person on Earth. I was talking to him about WWJ's coverage, the CKBB null, and the possibilty that WWJ might be able to improve its pattern should 950 or 960 be activated in or near Toronto (guaranteeing no return of CKBB - which would not be returning anyhow). His response? "They'll be on FM sooner than later".

All that talk about schemes to import the 700 channel to the Detroit market seem pretty funny. Usually those who have something of value in the Detroit market try to pull it out and move it somewhere where it is less likely to be devalued over time - not pulled from elsewhere into the market. There had been a rumor that someone was considering putting WJR's format on an FM, then pulling 760 to another market (not as big, but high-income and growing) after a station there was denied a local building permit for a 50kW night TL CP that had already been granted by the FCC (and which expired without being built - after another station had gone Class D to permit the upgrade, and which has recently gone back to being a Class B)

 

[ContinuousWave]

It's a little late for that, or even a move to FM. A somewhat improved signal is not going to get post-Baby Boomers listening to all news radio nor major advertisers who don't buy radio to start buying it.

Maybe, if the FCC had 20 years ago required all new receivers to get 76-88 and when analog TV shut down, to move all AM stations to the expanded FM band AM stations might have more of a future - but no.

Woulda coulda shoulda....hindsight is not always 20/20.....20 years ago, in 1994, DTV was still a gleam in the eyes (it started rolling out in 95/96)...Even the dumb FCC thought lowband TV would work for DTV (HA!)......with LPTVs also still there, (and recently the FCC has reconfirmed the original thought), FM has no chance of moving into TV RF 5 and 6...actually, the DTV channels NOONE wants are 2-4...the high level of static background noise from electrical and other manmade and natural sources are worse there than RF 5 and 6...so those two channels are still prime for TV....when the repacking happens, stations will probably look at moving back there (though they NEED 10db more ERP in a lot of cases)...IIRC, RF TV 5 has the most number of full power and low power DTVs so far....(I said digital...I did not include any LP or Class A analogs still there and there are some)...

AMs will ONLY have a future as AM....if the DAMN FCC would enforce the noise limits and power companies were sued more often....with the lack of FCC EB funding, the noise generating utilities, dont care anymore...and I USED to be a TVI/RFI troubleshooter for a major power company....it does NOT take that seriously anymore and the only ones who complain are usually hams....the power companies dismiss them though Houston's Centerpoint Energy almost bought a fine from the FCC after a 5 year fight with a ham radio customer who knew where the problem was but CNP would not fix it....after the FCC threatened a $10K a day fine, they changed the pad mounted (underground fed) xfmr...and all was quiet!!!!

Imagine that......

 

[FredLeonard]

Washington is not the only market where CBS has turned to FM for their all-news outlet.

CBS does not own WTOP and has not owned it for 60 years.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

That sounds like WTVN. Tower and RF phobia. They should have known better than to try that in a college town. Move WJR to Columbus? Like somebody said, there are even crazier ideas out there than moving WLW to Detroit.

It's clear that without expanding the FM band, the industry is running out of ideas.

The thing is, there is really no upper limit on frequencies. The technology is already there to use frequencies all the way up to infrared and coherent light waves in many applications. Why fight over the low end of the spectrum when many proposed applications only need line of sight over a mile or so?

And how long is it going to be before they figure out that 250 watt translators won't serve the largest Metropolitan Areas?

 

[1L6E6VHF]

Woulda coulda shoulda....hindsight is not always 20/20....

"Woulda, coulda, shoulda" pervades this entire forum, but people don't realize that their foresight actually was 20/20 and that they knew just what they were doing. The system is not really there for the interest of the public at-large, and it certainly has not been there for those who dream of having a radio station and have none.

I can easily think of many "Woulda, coulda, shouldas":

Woulda not assigned so many Class A/clear channels (NBC and CBS loved having a duopoly on network radio, and greatly influenced the agenda in this country)

Woulda set channel spacing at 12.5, 13 or 13.5 kHz after the end of WW2, when channels were not so crowded, reducing ACI, making better sound possible, and allowing more service, despite fewer channels (broadcasters would be afraid the change would benefit other stations more than theirs)

Woulda approved AM stereo and FM stereo at the same time in 1961 (yes- three systems had already been developed by 1961) (AM radio stations did not want to replace their perfectly good monaural studio gear to keep up with the others, for what could amount to a zero-sum benefit, FM stereo was not seen as a threat).

Woulda switched to 9kHz spacing in the 1970s, as had been seriously considered . It would have allowed hundreds of daytimers to become new ND-U locals, and allowed some inefficient higher-frequency clears to become lower-frequency "power regionals", and the spiel about having to replace whole arrays was pure hooey. (owners of unlimited-time AMs were afraid they would be devalued if their competitors became unlimited-time, not knowing the real threat was from waves one-one-hundredth as long).

Of course, this problem continues today. The powers that be won't reallocate 54-88 MHz to radio because their supporters/financiers simply don't want it. They aren't going to take away other barriers, such as tariffs on digital audio streaming, different playing fields for mobile devices vs. desktop PCs, or different rates for members of the radio-station-owners club vs. would-be competitors, either.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

CBS does not own WTOP and has not owned it for 60 years.

Touché.

I guess I'm a slow learner, sometimes. I haven't listened to WJSV much since WJBK moved from 1490 to 1500 (LOL)

 

[Captain Rock]

WWJ move to FM? To where? CBS owns 4 FMs in Detroit and is unlikely to sacrifice any of them. WDZH 98.7 Amp Radio is lowest rated 6+, but probably does well with younger demos. WXYT-FM, WOMC, and WYCD are among the top rated in town. The only way an FM becomes available is with a multi market group deal with Greater Media or Cumulus or maybe Crawford and their WMUZ 103.5.

 

[umfan]

Why do it when WWJ is in the Top 5? It's not as if, as Fred noted, that moving it to FM will improve the demos. The young demos that want traffic and weather do find it and it will be #1 or #2 in January and February.

 

[jry]

Why do it when WWJ is in the Top 5? It's not as if, as Fred noted, that moving it to FM will improve the demos. The young demos that want traffic and weather do find it and it will be #1 or #2 in January and February.

And there you are.... Clarity delivered concisely. All News on AM being in the top 5. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The only FMs that COULD have been available are not. Namely, good old WGPR and WDET. You may not recall this but WSU had commissioned us to do an auction for 101.9. As we got the process started, someone found a clause (from the union that donated it to WSU) that said the station could not EVER be sold. At the time, the opening bid was 55 Mil and i was planning my retirement.