dying AM radio

[Ravens]

For example, as a purely hypothetical example, if given a choice between the government expanding the current FM band

Never happen. Hundreds of millions of radios currently in production wouldn't be able to receive the station.

AM and FM are going to start exactly the way they are until true universal free wireless internet is the norm. No dead spots. We're 40 years into wireless phone technology (15 years into the really advanced part of it) and we still have large portions of entire states that have no coverage.

If I had to bet, radio will be alive and kicking at the beginning of the 22nd century in some form. This country is too massive to just have everyone stream everything.

 

[Kelly A]

Other than one Commissioner at the FCC, the AM band or any government intervention involving the AM band, is not even a blip on the FCC's radar. Given the possibilities for using currently mostly-vacant VHF TV channels as a potential place to move DTV broadcasters currently on UHF channels targeted for the national repackaging and auction to cell and PCS companies, the whole idea of moving AM stations to currently-unused low VHF TV channels, is pretty much DOA. That and has been stated numerous times, the lack of consumer interest in actively buying new redesigned radios, is nil. I also doubt many independent AM broadcasters would be in a position to build out an FM channel, knowing it would probably wouldn't be approaching an equivalent amount of listeners to their existing AM channel, for several years.

 

[davideduardo]

The example eriedj posted, WBBM-AM, is a CBS owned and operated property. The content of WBBM-AM is simulcast on WCFS-FM. Do you think CBS would object to losing access to 780 KHz in an AM band reallocation if the government would allow CBS to own a few more TV stations, or some other equally valuable consideration?

Chicago is a huge metro geographically. None of the Willis or Hancock FM signals is particularly strong at the edges.

WCFS puts a 65 dbu over 5.7 million people out of 9.5 million persons in the market. WBBM puts a 5 mV/m over 11.1 million people... the entire metro plus some.

I would scream, sue, lobby and spend tons of money to keep the 780 facility.

 

[joebtsflk1]

Chicago is a huge metro geographically. None of the Willis or Hancock FM signals is particularly strong at the edges.

WCFS puts a 65 dbu over 5.7 million people out of 9.5 million persons in the market. WBBM puts a 5 mV/m over 11.1 million people... the entire metro plus some.

I would scream, sue, lobby and spend tons of money to keep the 780 facility.

Hard to beat lots of power at the lower end of the AM dial, er rather, band. I've heard some of the dodgy FM signals from Willis while visiting the far western burbs. Much beyond 30 miles, those cut-back B's with 5 or 6 kWs start getting lost.

 

[Avid Listener]

But no other business is demanding access to AM. There's really nothing else that can be done with it. The telecom carriers want space higher in the spectrum. We've discussed this many times elsewhere. One of the reasons why it's doubtful the government would ever move it to another part of the spectrum, if because no one wants the part of the spectrum where it currently operates.

I forgot. You know everything that's going to happen in the future. Since all of the things that we'll ever need are already invented, they might as well shut down the patent office, right? Since something isn't in high demand today, nothing will ever change from now until the end of time.

 

[davideduardo]

I forgot. You know everything that's going to happen in the future. Since all of the things that we'll ever need are already invented, they might as well shut down the patent office, right? Since something isn't in high demand today, nothing will ever change from now until the end of time.

Were there something that could be done with the frequencies that are subject to skywave and other extreme variations in propagation of any value, there would be interested parties lobbying for the bands now used for shortwave. Shortwave is, for all practical purposes, dead. Not just in slow decline like AM (medium wave) but within just a few years of total death.

Nobody wants those unpredictable low frequencies where propagation changes between daytime and nights.

Take the thought one step further... longwave. Virtually empty spectrum just below the 530 to 1700 AM band and nobody interested, nobody developing a use.

 

[Ravens]

Other than one Commissioner at the FCC, the AM band or any government intervention involving the AM band, is not even a blip on the FCC's radar.

Radio in general isn't on the FCC's radar. Their main concern right now is getting control of the Internet and trying to figure out where to find new bandwidth for the exponentially growing wireless market.

 

[semoochie]

I forgot. You know everything that's going to happen in the future. Since all of the things that we'll ever need are already invented, they might as well shut down the patent office, right? Since something isn't in high demand today, nothing will ever change from now until the end of time.

I have heard that sometime in the 1890s, they had actually considered shutting down the patent office because everything that could be invented, already had been! Can you imagine?

 

[Avid Listener]

I have heard that sometime in the 1890s, they had actually considered shutting down the patent office because everything that could be invented, already had been! Can you imagine?

I was alluding to that event. The only limit to what could be used is our imaginations. AM radio, as a means of mass communication, is decreasing in importance. Alternate applications for the spectrum AM currently uses haven't been developed yet, but only an idiot would claim such applications would never be developed. As the demand for AM radio is decreases, eventually it will reach a point so close to zero as to mean it's there for all practical intents and purposes. Should a new use for that spectrum come along, that just means that instead of demand for AM reaching zero, it only has to drop to where it intersects the rising demand for that spectrum for some other use.

But, I suppose that to the people who lack imagination, if they can't imagine it, that means it can never happen. And since the people who lack imagination are the ones running AM radio, that also explains why things are the way that they are.

 

[Ravens]

I was alluding to that event. The only limit to what could be used is our imaginations. AM radio, as a means of mass communication, is decreasing in importance. Alternate applications for the spectrum AM currently uses haven't been developed yet, but only an idiot would claim such applications would never be developed. As the demand for AM radio is decreases, eventually it will reach a point so close to zero as to mean it's there for all practical intents and purposes. Should a new use for that spectrum come along, that just means that instead of demand for AM reaching zero, it only has to drop to where it intersects the rising demand for that spectrum for some other use.

But, I suppose that to the people who lack imagination, if they can't imagine it, that means it can never happen. And since the people who lack imagination are the ones running AM radio, that also explains why things are the way that they are.

I think this is a good way to explain it. The use for the band is likely something none of us can even comprehend. Otherwise we'd invent it and get rich.

 

[FredLeonard]

Not to get too much into technology, but there are places where AM might still have a place. Rural areas. Sparsely populated areas. Areas without high-speed Internet and spotty mobile service. Between the Appalachians and the Rockies. Get rid of all the interference-causing dead wood Class D and C stations and daytimers and have remaining AMs operate as regional broadcasters.

 

[landtuna]

Take the thought one step further... longwave. Virtually empty spectrum just below the 530 to 1700 AM band and nobody interested, nobody developing a use.

The Navy used to operate a VLF service for subs. I believe one station was located in MI. I would assume it has been totally or partially replaced by sat services now although I don't think sat frequencies can penetrate the ocean as well as the VLF signals.

 

[frankberry]

Very Low Frequencies can penetrate the ocean. Satellite signals can't.

 

[landtuna]

Very Low Frequencies can penetrate the ocean. Satellite signals can't.

If I remember correctly from my old propagation classes it is possible for sat frequencies to penetrate water, including salt water, but it isn't much and to receive such a signal the antenna would have to be pretty close to the surface. Subs used to be able to pick up VLF frequencies somewhat deeper in depth although their antenna designs were probably not as sophisticated at that time. Since a sub near the surface is a sitting duck it was considered a fairly important security issue so I am a bit surprised that they might have discarded the old VLF system.

 

[davideduardo]

Get rid of all the interference-causing dead wood Class D and C stations and daytimers and have remaining AMs operate as regional broadcasters.

There is no economic model to sustain even a few stations with that kind of operation.

Plus, wide area propagation is only available at night when radio listening of any kind is much lower than daytime levels.

 

[frankberry]

The little bit of signal from a satellite which is 25,000 miles above the earth will not reach a submerged submarine.
VLF continues to be the method of communication.

 

[davideduardo]

I was alluding to that event. The only limit to what could be used is our imaginations. AM radio, as a means of mass communication, is decreasing in importance. Alternate applications for the spectrum AM currently uses haven't been developed yet, but only an idiot would claim such applications would never be developed. As the demand for AM radio is decreases, eventually it will reach a point so close to zero as to mean it's there for all practical intents and purposes. Should a new use for that spectrum come along, that just means that instead of demand for AM reaching zero, it only has to drop to where it intersects the rising demand for that spectrum for some other use.

But, I suppose that to the people who lack imagination, if they can't imagine it, that means it can never happen. And since the people who lack imagination are the ones running AM radio, that also explains why things are the way that they are.

It's not the job of people running radio stations to imagine what could be done with the spectrum space of the band they operate on should the current use no longer be viable. Their job is to find what to do with their stations to be profitable.

It has taken AM radio 37 years to go from 50% of all listening to about 17% (national) of listening. The rate of decline, while apparently decreasing more rapidly in the last decade, is still very, very slow. Asking the manager of a radio station to worry about the very distant future is disingenuous.

Perhaps there will be new uses for the lower parts of the spectrum... those below 30 MHz... but they will have to overcome the very unstable propagation issues of those frequencies. And they will have to wait for the existing users to vacate their current usage.

I'm reminded of a story, which may be urban legend, of a European garage door opener company which decades ago used a channel just above the AM medium wave band. Only after they had thousands and thousands of installations did they find that remotes in Germany were opening garages in Scandanvia and Iberia and Great Britain under favorable night reception conditions!

 

[davideduardo]

The little bit of signal from a satellite which is 25,000 miles above the earth will not reach a submerged submarine.
VLF continues to be the method of communication.

There seems to be a considerable reduction in the redundancy of those transmitters. The Navy decomissioned, for example, the transmitter at Aguada, PR, more than 25 years ago and took down the 1000 foot tower and removed the high power transmitters.

A scan of the longwave band reveals, even when propagation is good, only a handful of signals including utilities. There is a considerable amount of the band available for other usages should they be invented or discovered.

 

[Avid Listener]

Asking the manager of a radio station to worry about the very distant future is disingenuous.

No one is asking the suits who run radio stations to think beyond the next quarter's results. That would be pointless. As you said, it's not their job, and even if it was, thinking towards the long term future would probably make their heads explode.

 

[Avid Listener]

And for the record, for the purposes of discussion, when an art form or media is considered "dead", that doesn't mean that there aren't some isolated pockets where it still continues as a nostalgic re-enactment. I've seen places where you can still see vaudeville shows performed, though they are an homage to a "dead" art form. I have friends who collect and restore antique cylinder based phonographs, and actually hand-make brand new wax cylinder recordings. I once heard a syndicated radio program that re-creates old-style radio broadcasts, including seeking out old RCA microphones and playing records over the air by placing a microphone near the output horn of a wind-up, 78 RPM Victrola. When AM radio reaches the point where a handful of hobbyists keep old AM stations on the air for the sake of remembering the good old days, that doesn't mean AM is still "alive".