Not true worship

[rbrucecarter5]

Apparently, you aren't aware that the phrase "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" applies to all Christian faith traditions that confess the Apostles Creed. That's not just Roman Catholics. That's also Evangelical Catholics (aka "Lutherans") and English Catholics (aka "Anglican" or "Episcopalian"). It is also used by Presbyterians, Methodists, and Congregationalists. The Apostles Creed, it also states what that church is. It is "The communion of saints". It is the body of all believers who share the catholic (meaning "universal") faith God revealed to us through the Apostles. It even includes those whose understandings aren't as accurate they should be. So, even though those faith traditions I mention recognize the concept of the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church", even those Christians who reject the name are also part of it!

It appears that the concept of "being saved" is also understood very differently by Christians in many, many faith traditions. I'll wager the concept of Simul Justus et Peccator or the concept of sola fide, which precludes the work of "accepting" Christ isn't part of your background. To many Christians, the understanding of salvation is not that we accept Christ, because that accomplishes nothing. What matters is that Christ accepted us.

Not that I'm trying to convince you to change your mind about your understanding of what is or isn't Christian. But you need to understand that a great many of us Christians do not agree with your faith tradition's understanding. In particular, we are often dismayed to hear anyone attempt to tell someone that "being saved" requires them to perform some sort of action, as if salvation can be earned.

I do not attend any church that recites the apostles creed. I will not pledge allegiance to the Catholic church. It is fine for those who wish to be a part of it. It is completely unnecessary for salvation.

As for works based salvation - I do not believe in works based salvation. I don't know how you could even come to that conclusion based on what I have posted on here. The only action required is to humble yourself and accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for your sins. That may be an over-simplification to you, but when you are talking with non-believers, you need to keep the discussion simple and focused on the fundamentals of the faith. Not a lot of denominational baggage.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Bruce: It looks to me like you find fulfillment in the simple "seekers fellowship" which finds music very, very critical to the seeker atmosphere. But please, please, please: quit throwing rocks at those of use who have looked for answers to share when life dumps doubts and problems on you. I don't think you would have been happy being in a church that was waist deep in the civil rights movement. I don't think you would be happy being in a church up to it's armpits in connecting religious faith with the conditions of agricultural migrant workers. You don't demonstrate any concern for exploring how the faith should deal with the issues of sexual equality when it comes to defining the place of females in the current society. I don't get the idea you are excited about wrestling with how the church will deal with the topic of homosexuality.

Apparently your place, your "calling" is playing catchy music for teenagers and introducing them to the bare-bones elements of the Christian faith. That's fine. When one of your teen age converts grows up, starts a family, and comes unglued some Thursday afternoon when he learns his teenage son is gay, thats o.k. Over at my liberal reformed congregation we have a place for your guy AND his son. We have a theology that makes room for your guy and his daughter when she comes home as says: "Dad... I feel called to the ministry. Why do you keep telling me women can be in the ministry?" And we can deal out some understanding and comfort to a parent when they announce: "My oldest child has "outgrown Christianity" and now meditates with the Buddhist folks."

Wow - you sure make a lot of assumptions about me without knowing me! It was MY listeners - teenagers - who were all over town picketing the holocaust in abortion clinics. It was MY listeners - teenagers - all over the beach witnessing to Spring breakers, bringing them to concerts we sponsored on the beach. My ancestors fought for the abolition of slavery. I am the one all over social media calling for the equality of women in the ministry, and attending churches where women preach. I am the one who has a good friend who is an illegal. I allowed his daughter to live with our family for five months while she got a start in life, probably on the run from immigration. As for the gay stuff - I am proudly ****-agnostic. It makes no sense to me, because I am crusty old engineer who doesn't know how a plug fits in a plug or a socket fits in a socket. But I sure know how a plug fits in a socket! Nevertheless, I am open to interpretation of scripture about eunuchs - which can also be translated homosexual. So I may be a lot more open to that issue than you think. And my cousin is married to his partner for decades, and I am the only one who treats his partner like a member of the family. That includes more welcoming than my wildly liberal aunt. When it came into HER family, she kind of balked at it - hypocrite.

Yes, my on air message is simple, it is consistent, it is aimed at unsaved teenagers. You wouldn't like the show. Fine, go listen to something else. But if ratings matter in radio, it is a safe bet that my ratings are way bigger than yours. That means a bigger pool of donors - which is important to keep me on the air. But what matters a lot more is a bigger pool of potential salvations, which at last count we were over 7000, including several prevented suicides. And that is in a market of only 300,000 or so. And the feedback from local churches where we sent young converts was great! They really integrated into the church as a contributing member - if not with money because they didn't have a lot - with time, volunteering in various capacities.

 

[Avid Listener]

I do not attend any church that recites the apostles creed. I will not pledge allegiance to the Catholic church. It is fine for those who wish to be a part of it. It is completely unnecessary for salvation.

As for works based salvation - I do not believe in works based salvation. I don't know how you could even come to that conclusion based on what I have posted on here. The only action required is to humble yourself and accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for your sins. That may be an over-simplification to you, but when you are talking with non-believers, you need to keep the discussion simple and focused on the fundamentals of the faith. Not a lot of denominational baggage.

And that's an example of why Christian radio will never be anything but a niche format to exploit a particular marketplace. Such false witness against your neighbors in the Lord's church, such gross misunderstandings of the tenets of the Christian faith, and such a terrible misunderstanding of what "denomination" even means, is all too common among those who have more enthusiasm than understanding.

 

[Carlos Santana's Guitar]

Where is your radio show, Bruce? What radio station? Does it stream? I'd guess that several of us are very interested in hearing it.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Wow - you sure make a lot of assumptions about me without knowing me! It was MY listeners - teenagers - who were all over town picketing the holocaust in abortion clinics. It was MY listeners - teenagers - all over the beach witnessing to Spring breakers, bringing them to concerts we sponsored on the beach. My ancestors fought for the abolition of slavery. I am the one all over social media calling for the equality of women in the ministry, and attending churches where women preach. I am the one who has a good friend who is an illegal. I allowed his daughter to live with our family for five months while she got a start in life, probably on the run from immigration. As for the gay stuff - I am proudly ****-agnostic.

O.K I stand properly admonished and corrected.

This is one of the problems of communications when we get into areas of faith, human relations and politics. None of that "reached out and grabbed me" as I read your posts through the years. Some of the word-smithing you use transmits a different message than what you posted just now.

I worry about that a lot. I am an observer of "the human languages of communication" and I often avoid certain highly-used language constructs.... some times just to "tweak the nose" of some folks. And in so doing I fully understand there are people out there reading my posts that get the wrong image, particularly if the read only one message.

In one of his posts today, Avid Listener expresses himself on the issues of "faith" and said something I am sure some people here have never pondered. You see, for all the differences AL and I have about the world of business, of radio and a lot of of other things, he and I have "church affiliations" that share a lot of theology. His pastor and my pastor could get this "wild haired idea" they would like to swap locations, and the two church groups recognize each other's credentials. My pastor's ordination would be acceptable to the folks where AL worships, and his pastor's credentials, education and ceremonial ordination would be accetable to the folks where I worship. And yet, look at the word tangles he and I get into. (And I can hardly wait for the NEXT one! )

Radio Discussions is... is... wait for it: a DISCUSSION space. Very few people actually know me... but they have a very well detailed picture in their mind of who I must me. Some people understand me the real me.... many do not. And from the faith tradition that you and I share, I have to worry about what that transmits. That is, after all, at the foundation of our religious thinking: We are a light set on a hill.

Yeah, I pick-and-poke at you from time to time... because your light set on a hill arrives over at my house looking different that you expected me to see. You and I can both spend the day scratching our heads over that one.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

O.K I stand properly admonished and corrected.

This is one of the problems of communications when we get into areas of faith, human relations and politics. None of that "reached out and grabbed me" as I read your posts through the years. Some of the word-smithing you use transmits a different message than what you posted just now.

I worry about that a lot. I am an observer of "the human languages of communication" and I often avoid certain highly-used language constructs.... some times just to "tweak the nose" of some folks. And in so doing I fully understand there are people out there reading my posts that get the wrong image, particularly if the read only one message.

In one of his posts today, Avid Listener expresses himself on the issues of "faith" and said something I am sure some people here have never pondered. You see, for all the differences AL and I have about the world of business, of radio and a lot of of other things, he and I have "church affiliations" that share a lot of theology. His pastor and my pastor could get this "wild haired idea" they would like to swap locations, and the two church groups recognize each other's credentials. My pastor's ordination would be acceptable to the folks where AL worships, and his pastor's credentials, education and ceremonial ordination would be accetable to the folks where I worship. And yet, look at the word tangles he and I get into. (And I can hardly wait for the NEXT one! )

Radio Discussions is... is... wait for it: a DISCUSSION space. Very few people actually know me... but they have a very well detailed picture in their mind of who I must me. Some people understand me the real me.... many do not. And from the faith tradition that you and I share, I have to worry about what that transmits. That is, after all, at the foundation of our religious thinking: We are a light set on a hill.

Yeah, I pick-and-poke at you from time to time... because your light set on a hill arrives over at my house looking different that you expected me to see. You and I can both spend the day scratching our heads over that one.

And I like your tag line - "life is too short to waste time dancing with ugly posts". To answer about three people in one post, however --

I am currently between stations. I am looking to get back on, and soon. I am currently in the process of organizing over 40 years of Christian music, figuring out what would make the most consistent presentation of Christ to a broadly based audience.

Denomination - I demote EVERY church to denomination, including the sectarian ones line Catholics and Church of Christ. I don't program to one denomination, I prefer to broadcast to all with the broadest - and simplest - set of Christian tenets as possible. I don't hold any one group - Catholic or other - as having any sort of monopoly as being "the" one true church and source of doctrine. Like I said before, I cast nets widely. Non-believers are welcome to listen. Cult members are welcome to listen. Our message is in the music, and the more you listen to the music, the more you get the message. They will find only love and the beautiful simplicity - and majestic wonder - of the salvation of Christ.

My light on the hill is a bit "red-shifted" downward in frequency until it is in the radio wave spectrum, but I think the scripture still fits. I am not "one size fits all" programming - I can't be everything to everybody. If I try, I will be nothing to anybody. Only Christ can be everything to everybody, hence denominations for whatever taste, and music for whatever taste. I'm going after the kids and young professionals, because they are the future of the church. Without them, the church has no future. If, in the process, I offend one denomination or another, or offend a few folks with different music tastes, so be it. The radio has a tuning dial. I would tell them to make use of it. I won't bow to any mere human, even if he has an important sounding title such as pope or president. I will bow only to the risen Christ. To Him and only Him am I answerable for the content of my radio programs, a responsibility I take seriously.

 

[Avid Listener]

I don't program to one denomination, I prefer to broadcast to all with the broadest - and simplest - set of Christian tenets as possible.

The Apostles Creed is the broadest and simplest set of Christian tenets that exist. It was written by the Apostles themselves, including some who were among the original 12 who actually spent three years learning directly from Jesus. They assembled this summary of Christ's teachings before the rest of the Holy Bible was written. It stands today as the best, most comprehensive summary of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith. Though passed on through writings and oral traditions, like most early Christian documents, including the Bible itself, the oldest known copies were made a few hundred years later. It left out a few important points, so a latter summary that included additional mentions of the Divinity of Christ were added to refute the heresies of those who claimed that Christ was only a human prophet, not one part of the Holy Trinity. Below is the most complete summary of the "broadest - and simplest - set of Christian tenets as possible."

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Now, instead of spouting anti-Roman Catholic bigotry or anti "denominational" bigotry (including your errant use of the term "denomination"), can you point to anything in that summary of the Christian faith that is wrong? Can you point out anything that is missing?

And finally, please refrain from insulting those of us who confess this creed as our deepest belief in the nature of Our Lord and Savior. We do not merely "recite" it. We confess it.

 

[Carlos Santana's Guitar]

I am currently between stations. I am looking to get back on, and soon. I am currently in the process of organizing over 40 years of Christian music, figuring out what would make the most consistent presentation of Christ to a broadly based audience.

Oh really. Then why do you continue to write about it in the present tense? How long has it been since you were on the air?

 

[Silkie]

Actually, that was the Nicene Creed.

 

[Avid Listener]

Actually, that was the Nicene Creed.

Yes, it was. Which was why I posted "Below is the most complete summary of the 'broadest - and simplest - set of Christian tenets as possible.'", though I neglected to mention it was the Nicene. What's much, much more important is rbrucecarter5's response, if he makes one, indicating what things that are in the Nicene Creed are "wrong" and what was left out. He did, after all, claim that he was promoting, "the 'broadest - and simplest - set of Christian tenets as possible." If that's the case, surely he can provide some reason why that creed, or the simpler Apostle's Creed, fails to meet his definition.

 

[boombox4]

I grew up in a church that recited the creed, but know a lot of Christians (mostly from the evangelical denominations) who don't seem to be aware of the creed, and/or haven't been taught it. I forgot about the creed for quite a few years. Then I read it a year ago and thought it was a basic restatement of what Christians believe in, and most of the phrases seem to come directly from the New Testament -- many of them seem to be lifted from the Gospel of John, and 1 John.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I grew up in a church that recited the creed, but know a lot of Christians (mostly from the evangelical denominations) who don't seem to be aware of the creed, and/or haven't been taught it. I forgot about the creed for quite a few years.

Part of the tug-of-war that has embedded itself even into our secular thought process is that some of the evangelical/conservative church groups raised a generation or two where the teaching was that churches who "recite creeds" are the enemy... they are evil. When you find yourself among people who recite those liberal, evil creeds... run as though your life depends on it.... for it does!!!! Don't stand still long enough to ask questions or debate. Just run, run, run.

Today that same thought process (and the people who brought it to us) are pretty much in control of the political process in this country. So now both in our faith process and our political process... we constantly run into this thought pattern: "They are the enemy. They are evil. When you find yourself among them... run as though your life depends on it.... for it does. Don't stand still long enough to ask questions or debate. Just run, run, run."

And that, boys and girls, is the seedbed that germinated this thread. What kind of music is worship and what music is NOT worship? Your answer to that may depend on whether you gather together with others in a group with regularity and recite the creeds of old, or whether you are one standing on the corner down at the village square yelling: "run as though your life depends on it... for it does!!!"

 

[boombox4]

I understand your point, but I think the evangelical movement has infused a bit of life into other denominations as well.

My first GF was straight on Catholic. But she joined a group of charismatic Catholics. That would have been unheard of in my grandmother's time. I think the charismatic Catholic movement was an outgrowth of the evangelical movement in the U.S. (I could be wrong, though).

I dislike denominationalism, although I understand the reason it exists. I try to see what they have in common, more than what separates. It's not always easy.

 

[anotherguyTN]

I grew up Southern Baptist and didn't know much about the creeds, but after getting married my wife and I went to a Methodist church that included the Apostles Creed in weekly services. It isn't done in the church I attend now, but I do still respect it. Here is a modern English Version:

Apostles Creed Modern English Version (From the Book of Common Prayer)

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Rich Mullins put the Apostles Creed to music, which is really where I first discovered it, even before being in the Methodist church: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTop7pzqcM I also like Third Day's version.

 

[anotherguyTN]

Part of the tug-of-war that has embedded itself even into our secular thought process is that some of the evangelical/conservative church groups raised a generation or two where the teaching was that churches who "recite creeds" are the enemy... they are evil. When you find yourself among people who recite those liberal, evil creeds... run as though your life depends on it.... for it does!!!! Don't stand still long enough to ask questions or debate. Just run, run, run.

Today that same thought process (and the people who brought it to us) are pretty much in control of the political process in this country. So now both in our faith process and our political process... we constantly run into this thought pattern: "They are the enemy. They are evil. When you find yourself among them... run as though your life depends on it.... for it does. Don't stand still long enough to ask questions or debate. Just run, run, run."

And that, boys and girls, is the seedbed that germinated this thread. What kind of music is worship and what music is NOT worship? Your answer to that may depend on whether you gather together with others in a group with regularity and recite the creeds of old, or whether you are one standing on the corner down at the village square yelling: "run as though your life depends on it... for it does!!!"

I agree that the attitude that the other side is the enemy is still a major problem in a lot of churches and also politics. But I know of Methodist and Presbyterian churches that have contemporary worship or at least use it in part, so not all of the churches that recite the creeds are anti-CCM.

 

[Avid Listener]

I agree that the attitude that the other side is the enemy is still a major problem in a lot of churches and also politics. But I know of Methodist and Presbyterian churches that have contemporary worship or at least use it in part, so not all of the churches that recite the creeds are anti-CCM.

I found these videos on YouTube This one is from a 60's folk mass called "Rejoice". It predates the coining of the phrase Contemporary Christian Music by at least a decade or more. This one has no information listed, and might be an original composition by the performer. This one is a mash-up of another hymn's tune with the Nicene Creed as the lyrics. This is the Apostles Creed, in a definite CCM style.

I think those four demonstrate that (1) using the historical creeds of the Christian faith does not mean contemporary sounding music cannot be used and (2) many YouTube videos have less than outstanding technical and performance standards. Non of those recordings are remotely close to "broadcast quality", but some of the songs might be if recorded properly by better musicians.

 

[anotherguyTN]

Here is Rich Mullins's official music video of Creed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tpq4MoRVV4 and Third Day's video with Brandon Heath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3i-_VWxOAc

VERY professional in both cases.

Actually what is considered contemporary Christian music goes back as far as the mid-60's in England and with youth musicals here in the US.

 

[Avid Listener]

Here is Rich Mullins's official music video of Creed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tpq4MoRVV4 and Third Day's video with Brandon Heath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3i-_VWxOAc

VERY professional in both cases.

Actually what is considered contemporary Christian music goes back as far as the mid-60's in England and with youth musicals here in the US.

You are correct that the music was there back in the 1960's. However, the label "Contemporary Christian Music" wasn't coined until later, and applied to the earlier music retroactively. It always takes the suits a while to come up with labels for things. Back in the 60's, when we would go to hear the Mind Garage perform The Electric Liturgy or visit the local church that was using "Rejoice" for worship services, we just called it "music".

 

[anotherguyTN]

I checked the link for Mind Garage on You Tube and found out it had a link to download the entire Electric Liturgy: http://www.mindgarage.com/electric-liturgy.htm This link is better for downloading because the main link launches all the tracks at the same time. (At least in IE 11) That was some pretty amazing stuff for the time. Thanks!

 

[vchimpanzee]

I grew up Southern Baptist and didn't know much about the creeds, but after getting married my wife and I went to a Methodist church that included the Apostles Creed in weekly services. It isn't done in the church I attend now, but I do still respect it. Here is a modern English Version:

I'm Methodist and while the church I go to doesn't do this one or even a similar one every Sunday, we have done it. Some other churches I have gone to in recent years do it or a similar version more often.