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radio..ice cold

How about education and income?

Sorry, but it's pretty unlikely anyone will be flipping to Romanian. Although you never know.

One has a college degree, one was military for 8 years and now works in government service, one is an electrician, one has partial college but is raising her daughter and the other is a student. I don't know what each makes but would guess that two are what we would term middle class and the others are lower.

Thanks to the Internet and bunches of Romanians on it both girls can pick and choose what native music they want to hear although both spend far more time on the Net than listening to music and neither have owned a radio in years.
 
Do you recall what year McLendon sold KLIF, b-turner ?

Reason I asked was, *if* it was discernibly before 1972 then the decision certainly adds to his reputation as someone with vision -- as if any additional credits were needed in the first place, lol.

The Solid Gold format began that year, 1972, at a number of stations. Perhaps those programmers also saw the red light of that terminal bumper getting brighter and closer. Just from experience at the time -- a change in career from A/C to AoR -- plus hindsight, it became evident even to someone as dense as I that 1973 might have been the last recent, steadily usable year for a Solid Gold library. After that, of course, the stations could cherry pick among the current hits to add sonically compatible tunes to freshen up the presentation, but that's all. Besides, anything beyond those 2 or so songs an hour would be defeating the stations' own premise.

Thing is, this creation of a new full-time format occurred virtually simultaneous with the ascent of Progressive's own, newer approach.
In 1972 our AoR wasn't called that yet, as you point out. If it was called anything on the air, which was rarely, the term was 'Progressive' as we and other stations began loading the playlist with more pop-leaning cuts. But those tracks were by acts who wrote their own stuff, just so the 'heavy' or 'more- substantial-than-Top 40' premise stayed intact. That softer stuff (especially the female acts like Simon, Mitchell, Carole King) was bringing aboard the female listeners. In our market we had four colleges so there already was a nice base. But we were getting callers as young as 14 -- barely high school -- who had determined the music we played was suddenly 'their' generation's music.
By Spring 1973 our little sister/across-the-hall FM had reached either #1 or #2 ratings in every daypart, stunning the legacy AM top 40 station in town. In less than a year we had come out of nowhere.
The AM competitor responded in a reactive way -- they started mixing in album cuts.
Not crossover singles but outright album cuts ! That was a true sign that some holes in the hull were spotted. When that tweak (and others) caused even more division and confusion in their ranks, they eventually settled on a more A/C approach to the whole day rather than the rah-rah presentation. I had two friends who worked there, who told me that their front office was enraged and bewildered about 'that bunch of (darned) hippies doing this to us!'

That said:
That long, awkward, somewhat politically- and personally-impacting bloodline of a format, which went from Heavy Underground to Progressive to Pop Progressive to AoR, somehow morphed into the last 'generational' mass appeal pop format now on the radio.
Other fads came and went ..... Punk Rock ..... Disco ..... the original Rap ...... the MTV fling. If there were true niches, they were the ones, lol.
But Classic Rock, despite its demo creakiness in recent years, remained the last nostalgia music format standing which is closest to being 'young' in any sense of the word.

So since we're talking about radio being ice cold here (a good way to pass some time in Cabin Fever Season) .... and about possible ways to alleviate the conditions ..... the only thing I see is for radio and marketing to begin regarding the 50+ or 55+ with a bit more respect. The supply line to the younger ones has snapped. I don't have the numbers here, of course, but I doubt that any Classic Rock P1 over the age of 30 or 35 grew to enjoy the format in spite of today's touriquet playlists, the commercial cluster avalanches and the digital sweeper glitz. Certainly, the older end of that Classic Rock demo ..... the 'undesirable' bunch that soon might start looking prettier ..... did not form an affection for AoR in their teens listening to that stuff, either.
Not my money, but regarding Classic Rock alone: If and when radio feels they need that demo, act like the only game in town. Open the playlist, for example. Cut back on those inane sweepers. Daypart like crazy. Primarily, start looking into methods of selling an older audience (there HAVE to've been studies done on it .... you know, some 'rainy day'/use-in-case-of-fire-only theories on file).

Strictly in the case of AoR/Classic Rock, suggested remedies like those, and others, obviously are not considered a priority yet. But with acts like Tom Petty and AC/DC issuing just their annual single for use as a current, Classic Rock just might vanish from the dials before Oldies/Classic Hits will.
Oldies and Classic Rock have good-sized audiences at the upper end. Why these only-games- in-town continue to treat these listeners like unscrubbed spare dinner dishes piled in the sink is a condition that everyone is tired of hearing -- yet it's a reality for business reasons and strategies.
Vis-a-vis radio in general, and music radio in particular, another reality might be the question of which is more 'set-in-their-ways' -- the AARPers or the programming & marketing people who are jettisoning an audience they very well might eventually need.
 
I'm not sure when McClendon sold KLIF to Fairchild but what I do recall was McClendon wanted payment in gold. When the sale went through the United States was still on the gold standard. I think the gold standard ended in 1971. If I'm correct on that, it would have been, likely months, before the gold standard ended,

Another amazing thing was McClendon was not allowed to have anything to do with any FM station but Fairchild refused to buy KNUS FM, also owned by McClendon, and did not bar McClendon from doing something on an FM in Dallas/Fort Worth. Rather quickly, KNUS upgraded and was doing a more 'hip' (as described at the time) version of top 40. In a short time, many of the KLIF listeners migrated to KNUS on the FM dial although KNUS never achieved the ratings KLIF once had. Another factor was about that time, Dallas and Fort Worth were combined as one market which may have been a factor.
 
i know everything changes as we move on, but it should change for the better. radio, in my opinion, has not done that.

Amen brother!
And in particular, the ads. They're unbearable! "When I grow up, I want to be a football stadium!"
said no one ever!
And late at night: "If you're over the age of 50, you should probably get a colonoscopy. In fact, you probably have cancer!
And what will your wife and kids do when you are dead next month?" <---accompanied by sensitive piano music, naturally.
I can't take it! It's insufferable. The government agency ads are the worst.
They all come across as: "We clearly consider you to be a complete idiot!"
I think of how radio sounded when I was growing up, and NONE of the ads sounded like this!
"Gimme gimme gimme gimme Gibbons!" may have been a bit simple, but it wasn't insulting!
I have to turn the radio off when the ads come on.
"Wilkes-Barre and Scranton are the perfect market to flip houses!" says a voice that oozes sleaze.
And I wouldn't go to Ireland with that frantic mad man if he was the last guy on the planet!
*CLICK!*
 
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I took would like to be in the 'buying demo' that the ad agencies use to place advertising. What we need to get across is the demographic in question is worthy of some of those ad dollars. At the moment they feel the 50+ are too set in their ways to be affected by ads without a high cost to convert them. And the research they have is that the under 50 crowd can be swayed and will part with their money for less money than it takes to get an over 50 buyer to change their buying habits.

I too find many commercials irritating but I sold advertising for years. The client dictates the copy. Sure, you can refuse the business but who in business tells customers to go away. Every station I worked for was so in need of cash, it took a lot to turn down an order. You really had to be pretty crooked or want to advertise something really unpopular or controversial to be told no. Reminds me of the WKRP episode where Herb sold the Funeral Home a bunch of advertising. Now, what you sell them is the trick. Oh, and a parting sales fact: the client always thinks they know best (and mostly they do).
 
This whole 'discussion' about radio not being able to sell to seniors is BS. Take a quick look at any major metro TV scheme. They are littered with 'classic' show channels sponsored almost exclusively by senior-oriented products. The advertising dollars for Oldies and CH are there but radio, for whatever reason, continues refusing them. And what about us seniors who would like a return to variety radio? Oldies in the morning interspersed with news. Swing, Big Band, Standards in the afternoon. Old radio programs like Benny, Fibber McGee, Gunsmoke, You Bet Your Life in the evening. A bunch of seniors are living alone, or almost alone, and would welcome company. Radio can provide that but it can't be programmed too narrowly.

The old "buying habits" argument is also BS. If seniors need waterproof underwear it is obviously something they haven't used before and will probably try whatever is advertised until they find a preferred brand - just like female teens trying out tampons. And if you cannot sell enough walk-in tubs or emergency wear-around-your-neck fall down alarms you can advertise upscale vehicles to seniors who have money and not many years left, financial services, counseling for depression, illness etc. The possibilities are endless.

Don't tell me any longer that the senior market doesn't exist or isn't saleable. I'm not buying it. There is a caveat though and that is the market is rapidly going away. My generation (pre-Boomer) has a history with the type of radio I am advocating but it disappeared quickly with the advent of music-only radio. Most Boomers and virtually everyone since has no relationship with variety radio and probably could not be convinced to give it a try.
 
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landtuna I agree. I manage a major market station. About 90% of advertisers have an ad agency where I am. They don't buy 50+ demos in radio. I agree it is not smart. Any ideas how I get them to change their mind? I've tried, begged favors, etc. When I've tried, they say it takes 2 to 3 times the dollars to convince a 50+ buyer to change their buying habits as it takes a person under 50. So, there are tons of us out there. Tell me how we make those controlling the dollars realize it's not smart. All I could get were small accounts that cost us what we made to generate a customer (in other words it costs us about what they could spend monthly to put them on the air and maintain the account). And my owner is 50+.

Please remember I have an owner who says to find a way to make the station profitable or I'll find somebody who will. Since my job is on the line, I go for money where I know where I can get it. I sure don't want to risk my job on something that hasn't worked for me in the past. After all the station is a business to my owner and he doesn't want to take money from his pocket to keep it on the air. It would scare me half to death to go after the 50+ with the brick wall experience I've had. Based on my experience, polishing up my resume would be a good idea if that was my choice.

One point, most of those spots for products you mentioned are PI spots. In other words, a call comes in from one of your zip codes and you get a couple of dollars. Most checks are about $20 to $25 a month per my experience. After a few months you get nothing. Still, with TV there are breaks that have to be covered, so the thinking is at least there's a chance of making a few dollars running PI spots instead of PSAs. Sears Vinyl Siding was the best paying we had...about $120 one month.

I suspect you may have not sold radio advertising and dealt with advertising agencies. And for the record, some of the advertisers appear on TV channels going after older demos. Why TV and not radio? Can it be they bonus those channels to get the rate they want on the channels they want?
 
b-turner: TV can do it, radio cannot. What is different? One thing is TV programming. They are broadcasting the video equivalent of radio Oldies. They are attracting a sizable number of viewers who apparently like the old, classic shows (at least part of the time). Radio listeners are quite the same but if they can't find their Oldies they have little use for music radio. So the first answer to your question is - you have to give them something they want to listen to and it most likely isn't the crap that proliferates on music radio today.

Second issue is ad agencies. They have made a self-fulfilling prophecy that 55+ is a hard sell so they don't sell to them. Unless that myth is shown to be wrong the agencies will not change course. Most Oldies outlets I find today are in medium size or small markets and their advertisers are local (non-agency). They are proof that it can be done (at least on some financial level).

There are businesses that do make an attempt to sell their products to seniors and are very successful. Seniors tend to have something that the majority of younger people don't have - time on their hands. A significant number of seniors are also comfortably well off if not downright rich - definitely better off than Joe Sixpack who still has a mortgage, car payments and several kids with dental issues. Marketing to seniors does require different approaches than selling to 30-year olds but it can work. TV proves it. It's the Boomers who are watching those old classic reruns, not their kids.

My father was a steel salesman for many years and worked from time to time both inside on the phones and on the road meeting face to face with customers. He often said it was lots easier to sit in the air conditioned office and wait for the phone to ring and write up the order than to drive all day from mine to shop to mine glad-handing the customer and understanding his business and purchases - but the real money was the latter. In order to sell he had to make the customer's end product better, cheaper, faster and to do that he needed to know as much as possible about the customer's business and products. That doesn't happen by sitting at a desk waiting for a phone call. The customer needed to know that my dad's company was invested in their success as well and that frequently meant more than shopping for the lowest price.

A radio station that has a stable cast of sales and air talent who tend to be well known in their market are much more "salable" than people the customer (and their customers) don't recognize. How many bottles of Gold Bond did Paul Harvey sell just because a ton of listeners knew who he was and felt like he wouldn't steer them wrong? For the older customer of radio that trust factor is much much larger than required at the local Rap outlet.

Want to get rich? Find the secret.

Want to continue to grind it out for your current owner who is more afraid of losing money than making money? Keep on keeping on.

TV has learned how to niche successfully. Radio has been only partly successful and some niches have failed miserably. That is the conundrum.

About a year ago a local AM here in Phoenix finally went belly up after a very long and popular run. KOY was once the most popular radio station in Arizona but got booted off their 550 frequency to 12xx, lost virtually every one of their very popular air staff and were left with one AMD guy on a miserable AM frequency. The end was quick. But take that formula, put it on a quality FM signal and it would have had a much longer life.
 
Don't tell me any longer that the senior market doesn't exist or isn't saleable. I'm not buying it.

And yet you're the one who says over and over that advertising doesn't affect you one bit. You buy products, but not because of advertising. Advertisers know that. And that's why they don't buy spots on radio stations that appeal to you.
 
This whole 'discussion' about radio not being able to sell to seniors is BS. Take a quick look at any major metro TV scheme. They are littered with 'classic' show channels sponsored almost exclusively by senior-oriented products. The advertising dollars for Oldies and CH are there but radio, for whatever reason, continues refusing them.


The TV dollars are just that: TV dollars. Most senior focused campaigns are TV / visual media only. And many of those senior items such as scooters, tubs, lifts and such are PI ads... you fill the empty spaces in your commercial sets with them in the hopes a few dollars will come in.

Radio stations that have a lot of 55+ audience don't go after "senior ad dollars" because, for all practical purposes, there are none in the transactional market. And there are few in the smaller ones too.

And what about us seniors who would like a return to variety radio? Oldies in the morning interspersed with news. Swing, Big Band, Standards in the afternoon. Old radio programs like Benny, Fibber McGee, Gunsmoke, You Bet Your Life in the evening. A bunch of seniors are living alone, or almost alone, and would welcome company. Radio can provide that but it can't be programmed too narrowly.

That would appeal to people well into their 70's. No agency account will use radio to reach them, if they even want to reach seniors with senior products and services. Even on TV the target for the senior crowd does not go much above 65, as advertisers assume that by that age, retirement / senior product / senior lifestyle decisions have mostly been made.

The old "buying habits" argument is also BS. If seniors need waterproof underwear it is obviously something they haven't used before and will probably try whatever is advertised until they find a preferred brand - just like female teens trying out tampons. And if you cannot sell enough walk-in tubs or emergency wear-around-your-neck fall down alarms you can advertise upscale vehicles to seniors who have money and not many years left, financial services, counseling for depression, illness etc. The possibilities are endless.

All of those product lines, plus medications, travel, etc., depend on dramatic video to sell. None of the purveyors of senior products uses much if any radio as they know that they need to demonstrate how nice the product makes you feel or how convenient it is or how your life may be saved if you have it.

Don't tell me any longer that the senior market doesn't exist or isn't saleable.

Ad agency clients know that the older the consumer, the more impressions that are required to make a sale. At some point, the cost of the ads is greater than the profit on the sale.
 
You make a fine argument Landtuna. The issue is those of us in radio are working for people that will not let us risk their money. Going after a group that the ad agencies do not buy is not something an investor sees as providing a good return on their investment. They look at that 25 to 49 age group station billing 24 million a year and say get me some of that. Mention something else and you get the question I have had asked of me: How does that make me money specifically and are you willing to risk your reputation on it?

In a small market you can risk it if there are more business owners that make the advertising decisions and like what you are doing on the station. In that instance, it has much more to do with meeting and greeting the customer. That is not the case in the city. They tell you to contact the ad agency. Sometimes it's an AM and FM combo and the FM makes the money, say with country selling $8 spots but you can add a spot on the automated oldies AM for 50 cents or $1 if you just want the AM. I know a guy doing that. In fact, his country FM is only live in morning and afternoon drive. That's a far cry from when I got in to radio and everybody was live and local.

I will say larger markets where there is a large retirement community you can likely pull it off but those markets are few and far between. Even in such markets, most stations opt for the easier options where they can get on that ad agency buy sheet pretty easily.

I'm not doubting there's money to be made, it's the problem of how long you sustain a loss to get in to the black and then how long before you hit the ceiling. An attempt means changing thinking and that comes very slowly. Then it's whether that ceiling will pay back the investment and turn a profit. I've never been able to create a plan where I can show it will happen and as quickly as going after a younger demographic. I compared it to selling Christian radio where you are working hard but can't seem to get enough momentum going to make it work. The worst part is lots of good people give up on it before they see the light in the tunnel...they can make more elsewhere and stay 'up' because they can get more people saying yes elsewhere. And we both know a stable staff is crucial.

I know about sales. I don't wait for phone calls. Sales are built on relationships. You mention a staff and good salespeople. Do you have an idea of that cost? Good talent and good salespeople are not cheap at all. If they're good, they're already getting good pay so your offer has to be better than they currently have. And good people don't mean success. Some of that is the product they represent. Granted, you get further with good people but man the ramp up to the black is staggering. You can eat away a million very quickly. And we have yet to talk about the cost to build that awareness throughout the market. I can work a client, do everything right and they still won't buy because they don't like the product I'm selling.

Paul Harvey broke the mold. It is almost not fair to compare him. He had more talent in his pinkie fingernail than I ever will. Nobody has replaced him and some tried in his final years but none had the magic Paul did. Amazingly it wasn't just the old folks that listened. I was programming a rock leaning very music intensive top 40 with an Air Force base being a big economic factor. The local listeners demanded Paul Harvey...the 15 minutes at noon and the AM and PM editions. That was 1987 and we're especially talking the 18-30 year old crowd.

Might I also add your Dad is a wise man. He knew success came by putting in the work to achieve it. I bet he was among the best in the company! When I was taught sales, I was told to go out there, make friends and work for your friends' success without giving a thought to your own success as it will come. I think the companies you deal with need to know you are watching out for them and trying to help, not just get an order.

It has nothing to do with me convincing my owner of a format. He knows what he wants. My directive was to find the easiest way to run the station with the fewest people and turn a profit. He added he didn't want to be bothered constantly about the station. His career already has him being a workaholic.

We need to find that secret! I know I have more dollars to spend than I ever did and with life expectancy being what it is by 50 we have almost half our lives left to live! That's sort of a bad cut off point for going after customers.

Please remember many of the spots you see on TV, especially the lower rated stations, are "PI" or per inquiry spots that are not paid. You might get $2 or $3 from every $19.95 sale from your zip codes called in to that specific toll free number.
 
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Radio listeners are quite the same but if they can't find their Oldies they have little use for music radio.

This is the foundation of your argument, and this is where it fails. A huge percentage of seniors don't want to hear oldies. Traditional AC stations have huge (but unsalable) 55+ listenership. So do contemporary Christian stations, Spanish language regional Mexican operations and country stations.

Some simply don't want to relive the past. They have moved on and like other kinds of music or more current music.

Or they gravitated to talk programming, be it of the KTAR/KFYI type or NPR.

Some never listened to Top 40. They may have been r&b station listeners in the 60's or 70's, or perhaps they were country listeners. Or maybe they liked traditional Mexican music. Or the music of some other nation.


So the first answer to your question is - you have to give them something they want to listen to and it most likely isn't the crap that proliferates on music radio today.

Given that maybe only 20% of those who are now 55+ listened to oldies back when stations played 60's music a decade or so ago, there is no reason to think that a station catering to seniors would even be the most popular option for that group.

Second issue is ad agencies. They have made a self-fulfilling prophecy that 55+ is a hard sell so they don't sell to them.

That's false, as agencies do what the clients tell them to do. If the client says that they get poor ROI from advertising to older demos, and tells them not to do it with their money, then the agency head tells the media department to not buy anything over 50 or 55.

Unless that myth is shown to be wrong the agencies will not change course.

It's not a myth. Major marketers spend billions and billions a year researching their consumers. They know where the profits are, and they are not with 55 and over.


A significant number of seniors are also comfortably well off if not downright rich - definitely better off than Joe Sixpack who still has a mortgage, car payments and several kids with dental issues.

But selling the dental services, the house, the mortgage and the things for the kids are what most advertisers do.

And the majority of retired seniors (well over 50% live off Social Security alone... in other words, they are near the poverty level. Few are actually rich, few live in Paradise Valley. More live in Goodyear and Mesa.
 
And yet you're the one who says over and over that advertising doesn't affect you one bit. You buy products, but not because of advertising. Advertisers know that. And that's why they don't buy spots on radio stations that appeal to you.

And "you guys" keep telling me I am not the typical customer. Which is it?

There are a host of products which are advertised heavily that I won't touch because in my long life I have tried them and don't like them (hello Budweiser). I love their commercials though. But most of what I buy I research first through other means than ads. It isn't nearly as important if selecting a new shave cream but vitally important for the purchase of a new car.

Just this morning I saw an ad for flights being sold on a WWII-era B-29 at a local air show. Now that interests me and I may take advantage this weekend. You might consider that ad more of an "announcement" than a traditional commercial but they are pretty much the same to me. So, commercials can work but most are ignored.
 
It has nothing to do with me convincing my owner of a format. He knows what he wants. My directive was to find the easiest way to run the station with the fewest people and turn a profit. He added he didn't want to be bothered constantly about the station. His career already has him being a workaholic.

I'm unsure if your owner's primary interest is on the station or is treating the station like I treat my mutual funds (make me money but don't bother me with the details).

The best examples of successful stations I've ever read about were the ones where the owner (or his delegate) had a full-time hands on relationship and was actively managing it. If that is not the case with your owner then your "manage to keep my job" is understandable. Given the challenges radio has today I cannot imagine why anyone would want to own a station without being in love with the industry. There are certainly other ways to make money without the risk and uncertainty of radio ownership.

A good comparison would be a brewer at Anheuser-Busch and the local craft brewery. Job security is good at A-B but you are doing pretty much the same thing day after day while at the craft brewery you can experiment with your market taking the risk you might produce a winner or it might fail. As a 30-year IT drone who had half a career early which was exciting and experimental and the latter half as a corporate stooge I would go for the former every time (even though the latter paid much better).
 


This is the foundation of your argument, and this is where it fails. A huge percentage of seniors don't want to hear oldies. Traditional AC stations have huge (but unsalable) 55+ listenership. So do contemporary Christian stations, Spanish language regional Mexican operations and country stations.


Note that I did not say that Oldies were the only programming appropriate for seniors. I would expand it to include some standards, swing, variety and even perhaps some light jazz. Look at the playlist for KOY just prior to its demise and you will get an idea of what I mean. That playlist was very popular with seniors in this market - in addition to the air talent.


Or they gravitated to talk programming, be it of the KTAR/KFYI type or NPR.


I know of only one set of seniors who listen largely to NPR. I know of no senior who listens to the idiots on talk radio.


Some never listened to Top 40. They may have been r&b station listeners in the 60's or 70's, or perhaps they were country listeners. Or maybe they liked traditional Mexican music. Or the music of some other nation.


You are correct but I am relating to my own experiences growing up (Southwest USA) although I also lived and experienced music radio in the S.F. Bay Area and the N.Y. metro area. A senior who has lived in New Orleans or Oklahoma might have very different musical tastes than I do but you would need to bear that in mind when setting the playlist for your stations location.


Given that maybe only 20% of those who are now 55+ listened to oldies back when stations played 60's music a decade or so ago, there is no reason to think that a station catering to seniors would even be the most popular option for that group.


Yes, but as you have pointed out, stations other than #1 can and do make money.



That's false, as agencies do what the clients tell them to do. If the client says that they get poor ROI from advertising to older demos, and tells them not to do it with their money, then the agency head tells the media department to not buy anything over 50 or 55.


Perhaps for large corporations like Ford or Anheuser-Busch but I'm guessing that smaller companies also tend to ask opinions of their agencies as to their demo targets. I cannot imagine a business owner who is not primarily an advertiser/marketeer going to an agency and demanding a specific campaign without regard for the agency's expertise. I was not in sales or marketing but I am willing to bet that those future salesmen now in school are hearing those same words "don't try selling to seniors" unless you are selling adult diapers.


It's not a myth. Major marketers spend billions and billions a year researching their consumers. They know where the profits are, and they are not with 55 and over.


If you had said BIG profits I would have agreed with you. What I am saying is there is money to be made in the senior demo. TV does it. Radio, not so much. Why?



And the majority of retired seniors (well over 50% live off Social Security alone... in other words, they are near the poverty level. Few are actually rich, few live in Paradise Valley. More live in Goodyear and Mesa.

I have searched far and wide but cannot find any consensus of opinion on seniors living in poverty. Yahoo Finance claims it is only 1 in 7 - nowhere near 50%. Other sources only claim the number of seniors receiving SS retirement, survivor or disability payments. By that measure I also live in poverty as SS retirement is my primary means of income. If you would do a means assessment however you would find I am a 1%er.

And if you would do an analysis of Paradise Valley residents you would find very few are retired in the traditional sense. It is largely made up of rich immigrants from (mostly) the Midwest, sports figures and business owners. Go a bit further north into Snottsdale and you will find those who cashed in, retired and built their McMansions (however, Snottsdale also has a huge number of ordinary retired people living much more modestly). Goodyear is largely a resort village with middle income residents surrounding the core. Mesa has a very modest core, mainly Latino, surrounded by average and high average suburban enclaves. It mirrors the much larger Phoenix metro in that respect. Old Town Tempe used to be populated by mostly retirees and during the school year college students but the retirees are almost gone now except for the west side of Mill Avenue - priced out by investors buying up student housing and upscale shopping and entertainment centers.
 
I know of only one set of seniors who listen largely to NPR. I know of no senior who listens to the idiots on talk radio.

Now there's a scientific sampling! That settles it, then; there is only one "set" (couple?) of seniors in each state who listen to NPR, and none at all, anywhere in the US of A, who listen to right-wing talk.

The rest, I guess, are not listening to radio anymore, or they're listening en masse to stations like WLNG and Tennessee's Hippie Radio mini-network -- over the Internet, of course, but somehow all these folks' streaming never overloads the servers. Probably a conspiracy of Madison Avenue and the programming suits to marginalize the elderly, right?
 
What I am saying is there is money to be made in the senior demo. TV does it. Radio, not so much. Why?

That's a question to ask advertisers, not broadcasters. We have no personal bias except the ones given to us by the people who pay for advertising. Most of the CEOs of the major radio companies are boomers who'd love to program oldies or music aimed at their own demo. But their advertisers want something else. If you'd pay us a monthly subscription fee, we'd gladly program whatever you want. NPR is member supported, and older listeners have money to donate. So the average age for NPR, according to their own numbers, is over 40.

With regards to TV, network TV is NOT aimed at seniors. You may be talking about certain cable networks. But in that case, they get paid a fee by the cable company, plus additional money from advertisers.
 
Then why is the average age of a CBS viewer over 50?

CBS began an initiative about 3 years ago to try to reach major advertisers and agency heads to promote the use of 35-64 as a buy demo.

I have not heard anything about it of late, which makes me (with no facts to support my conclusion) believe that the effort has not be very successful.

Of course, CBS has more scripted shows than the other webs, and those tend to appeal more to pre-retirement AARP members than the current crop of sitcoms and reality offerings on the other major nets.
 
Note that I did not say that Oldies were the only programming appropriate for seniors. I would expand it to include some standards, swing, variety and even perhaps some light jazz.

That would appeal to nearly nobody, and certainly to no one advertisers want to reach. Standards and swing will pretty much drive off anyone under 75.

Look at the playlist for KOY just prior to its demise and you will get an idea of what I mean. That playlist was very popular with seniors in this market - in addition to the air talent.

"Very popular" is relative. When they were nostalgia, the average share was 0.4, and not much over a 1.5 in 55+... less than either of the country stations, for example.

I know of only one set of seniors who listen largely to NPR. I know of no senior who listens to the idiots on talk radio.

Yet half or more of the audiences for the two commercial talkers in PHX are 55 and older, and NPR has a large 55+ component to its listenership. Talk is, overall, the top format among seniors and geezers.

You are correct but I am relating to my own experiences growing up (Southwest USA) although I also lived and experienced music radio in the S.F. Bay Area and the N.Y. metro area. A senior who has lived in New Orleans or Oklahoma might have very different musical tastes than I do but you would need to bear that in mind when setting the playlist for your stations location.

One thing is the playlist... which may be somewhat geographically focused (although with the amount of people who are not from where they now live, that is somewhat irrelevant today)... and the other thing is the format. No matter what oldies you play, you are not going to get a majority of seniors for the reasons I mentioned. Pop oldies don't appeal to everyone.

Yes, but as you have pointed out, stations other than #1 can and do make money.

They can't only have 55+ numbers and make money.

Example: For nearly two decades, Cox had an easy listening traditional AC format on WDUV in the Tampa MSA. It was always #1 and sometimes with double the 12+ shares of the second rated station. But it was rated around 15th in 25-54, and #1 in 55+. And it was 15th in billings. Then they decided to blow off the nostalgia / easy listening stuff and contemporize the list while maintaining the texture; they are now #1 in 25-54 and also still at the top in 55-64, although not by quite as much.

One of the reasons for the change came from those direct accounts you think can be so profitable: business owners and managers told the station, "you only bring in very old people, and that scares away the younger consumers".

Remember that people over 40 want to feel younger than they really are. So things that feel "old" are not good in the world of marketing.

Perhaps for large corporations like Ford or Anheuser-Busch but I'm guessing that smaller companies also tend to ask opinions of their agencies as to their demo targets.

Even a local retailer has considerable research, often provided by the brands they sell or the franchiser they deal with. A car dealer will have loads of input from the manufacturer, with suggestions on how to advertise. Much of that support material identifies the hot spots for sales, which are generally not among seniors. If the account has a local agency, they will bring the manufacturer data to meetings... and this may be critical if the supplier provides support dollars for local campaigns.

I cannot imagine a business owner who is not primarily an advertiser/marketeer going to an agency and demanding a specific campaign without regard for the agency's expertise.

Besides supplier guidance, the first thing an agency would do if at all involved in the marketing modeling would be to discover who the profitable prospects are and target them. The result is the same.

If you had said BIG profits I would have agreed with you. What I am saying is there is money to be made in the senior demo. TV does it. Radio, not so much. Why?

I already explained: visual appeal.

Take the cruise line advertising. They don't sell cruises. They sell the feeling you will have when cruising with them. That requires video. Or take the medications for ED, COPD, frequent urination, osteoporosis and such. They don't sell the disease, they sell how fun a life you will have cruising in the convertible, walking on the beach with the dog, out with friends and such. That takes video. Or think of the walk-in tubs. They sell how easy to use they are and how bending and slipping and falling are minimized. Again, video needed.

All those lines are managed by agencies for big companies. They allocate their dollars to visual media. They don't put anything towards radio, so radio can't sell to them.

I have searched far and wide but cannot find any consensus of opinion on seniors living in poverty.

Money Magazine had a big feature about how few people have anything saved for retirement except whatever equity they might have in a home. The article may be available online, but probably requires a subscription to read the whole thing. It was frightening to see how many people don't have any savings. Beyond those only covered by a private or government pension or/and by Social Security, there turned out to only be about 30% of the population with a net worth of over $100k.

By that measure I also live in poverty as SS retirement is my primary means of income. If you would do a means assessment however you would find I am a 1%er.

By the current estimates in both Forbes and Business Week, a net worth of around $8.4 million will qualify a person as a 1% er. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/measuring-the-top-1-by-wealth-not-income/?_r=0

In terms of income, a one-percenter has annual income when working of around $800 k a year. I doubt Social Security pays $70 k a month to anyone.
 
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