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rbrucecarter5
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according to this article:
http://www.radioworld.com/article/i...steners-if-skywave-protections-relaxed/275933
http://www.radioworld.com/article/i...steners-if-skywave-protections-relaxed/275933
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I think just counting the DXers far underestimates the number of people who listen to Class A and some Class B stations with fairly high power and directional antennas under some circumstances. One reason is sports PBP, and I suspect there may be millions of others who listen to out of town stations to hear a favorite College or Professional team play on the air. There may be a hard core or pure DXers who listen just for the DX, but there are many others who listen to these stations. Another set listen for late night talk shows if they don't have a local affiliate. I'm sure that the cell phone companies would like to make you listen on your phone or tablet, but it's applications like that that will overwhelm the internet at some point. Some politicians will then say that unlimited internet growth is "unsustainable", and in that case, they may be right.
I know of people who listen to KFBK in the Seattle area at night.
KGO-810 also used to have a good sized audience in the Northwest after dark, but with the internet...not as much anymore.
I'm in that "pure DXers" category most of the time. With a couple shy of 700 here on AM, and over 400 FM stations logged via various methods (sporadic-E, tropo, meteor scatter, line of sight) I am still working to increase that number. I feel for the DXers that have 2000 or even 3000 AMs logged. I don't think I'll EVER reach 3K but I really want to try for 1000 AM stations by the time that AM becomes just a memory.
Summer is one of the more exciting seasons for me as it is prime e-skip season here. Hearing a 1000 mile FM is not like a 1000 mile AM. Some AMs over 1000 miles I get about 95% of the time at night (like KKOB 770). But 92.3 KRST or 97.3 KKSS? Only when sporadic-E happens, and only if the paths align.
-crainbebo
KGO-810 also used to have a good sized audience in the Northwest after dark, but with the internet...not as much anymore.
I'm in that "pure DXers" category most of the time. With a couple shy of 700 here on AM, and over 400 FM stations logged via various methods (sporadic-E, tropo, meteor scatter, line of sight) I am still working to increase that number. I feel for the DXers that have 2000 or even 3000 AMs logged. I don't think I'll EVER reach 3K but I really want to try for 1000 AM stations by the time that AM becomes just a memory.
Summer is one of the more exciting seasons for me as it is prime e-skip season here. Hearing a 1000 mile FM is not like a 1000 mile AM. Some AMs over 1000 miles I get about 95% of the time at night (like KKOB 770). But 92.3 KRST or 97.3 KKSS? Only when sporadic-E happens, and only if the paths align.
-crainbebo
Say you were an Ohio State University fan or graduate, stuck (in the OSU fan's view anyway) in Michigan. Wouldn't you listen to the games broadcast on WTVN 610 rather than trying to listen on an unreliable internet connection or cell phone? WTVN is just 5000 watts, but it has a reliable signal well into Michigan both day and night. So it's not just the 50000 watt clear channels even.
Some of the former Class II-As, like KBOI 670, former Class II-Bs like WKNR 850, and several of the former Class III-As and III-Bs that are now 50000 watts or close to 50000 watts can also be heard far and wide in some directions at least, not just the former Class I-A and Class I-B stations.
Some of the former Class II-As, like KBOI 670, former Class II-Bs like WKNR 850, and several of the former Class III-As and III-Bs that are now 50000 watts or close to 50000 watts can also be heard far and wide in some directions at least, not just the former Class I-A and Class I-B stations.
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More to the point: 15 or so years ago, KGO was the#1 station in San Francisco. It's not even in the top 20 now. If it's not good enough for the local market, it's going to be even less of interest to distant markets.
This is the case of many AM stations... few, save the all sports ones* are doing well even in the local markets, and in general are a fraction of what they were a decade ago.
The other issue is that radio listening at night has been a small fraction of the daytime listening levels for many decades.
*And a handful of all newsers in the largest markets.
Yes, I was going to say that KGO doesn't even have a good sized audience in San Francisco anymore! At one time, they had a 26 share at night in Portland and had some Portland ads.
As much of a fan I am of distant mediumwave station listening, I think there's another aspect to look at, too.
I think one concern the class A stations may have if skywave protections are relaxed, aren't so much that they'll lose coverage in distant markets, but that, due to the laws of physics and other stations increasing power, they could lose reliability of coverage in the suburban and semi-rural portions of their own markets, where some of their listeners could live. For example, what about...
660 WLFJ Greenville, SC (50kW ND) vs WFAN near Woodbridge Township, NJ?
720 WGCR Pisgah Forest, NC (50kW ND) vs WGN near Chicago Heights, IL?
890 WBAJ Blythewood, SC (50kW ND) vs WLS near St George, IL?
1130 WDFN Detroit, MI (50kW DA, 2052 mV/m@1km to NYC) vs WBBR near Fairfield, NJ? or
1210 WJNL Kingsley, MI (50kW ND) vs WPHT near Norristown, PA?
What happens to those class A stations' suburban coverage if the other mentioned stations use their daytime facilities all night? I expect the class A stations would still dominate the channel, but would the other stations be audible underneath, and maybe off-frequency heterodynes/beating make listening uncomfortable for non-DXers?
I think one concern the class A stations may have if skywave protections are relaxed, aren't so much that they'll lose coverage in distant markets, but that, due to the laws of physics and other stations increasing power, they could lose reliability of coverage in the suburban and semi-rural portions of their own markets, where some of their listeners could live. For example, what about...
660 WLFJ Greenville, SC (50kW ND) vs WFAN near Woodbridge Township, NJ?
720 WGCR Pisgah Forest, NC (50kW ND) vs WGN near Chicago Heights, IL?
890 WBAJ Blythewood, SC (50kW ND) vs WLS near St George, IL?
1130 WDFN Detroit, MI (50kW DA, 2052 mV/m@1km to NYC) vs WBBR near Fairfield, NJ? or
1210 WJNL Kingsley, MI (50kW ND) vs WPHT near Norristown, PA?
What happens to those class A stations' suburban coverage if the other mentioned stations use their daytime facilities all night? I expect the class A stations would still dominate the channel, but would the other stations be audible underneath, and maybe off-frequency heterodynes/beating make listening uncomfortable for non-DXers?
The comments after that article were more interesting and enlightening than all of that Wing Tip Talk in the article itself.
And to me, that '600,000' figure theoretically, if genuine, should translate to over a half million wasted dollars in postage spent on reception reports. AM stations used to verify. That's because stations used to care enough about their coverage and skywave to pay attention to DXers, rather than hire someone to just name drop 600,000 people at their convenience. I've sent out a half-dozen luxurious, Felix Ungar-ish reception reports the past several years and haven't gotten one verie back.
Nowadays, anyone who turns on an AM radio to hear anything technically qualifies as a DXer, no?
I guess too much time has passed for a movie about DX to be produced. In case anyone is interested, I have a screenplay for one written (a serious spoof) plus half of what no doubt will be the well-received sequel, hi. I'll try to locate an Amiga 500, because it was written on one of those discs.
Hollywood: If you're interested, please include return postage.
And to me, that '600,000' figure theoretically, if genuine, should translate to over a half million wasted dollars in postage spent on reception reports. AM stations used to verify. That's because stations used to care enough about their coverage and skywave to pay attention to DXers, rather than hire someone to just name drop 600,000 people at their convenience. I've sent out a half-dozen luxurious, Felix Ungar-ish reception reports the past several years and haven't gotten one verie back.
Nowadays, anyone who turns on an AM radio to hear anything technically qualifies as a DXer, no?
I guess too much time has passed for a movie about DX to be produced. In case anyone is interested, I have a screenplay for one written (a serious spoof) plus half of what no doubt will be the well-received sequel, hi. I'll try to locate an Amiga 500, because it was written on one of those discs.
Hollywood: If you're interested, please include return postage.
WDFN (as WCAR) was not required to protect WBBR (as WNEW) during critical hours when it was authorized. The Critical Hours rules were not adopted at that time. So it is grandfathered. I have never known them to not reduce power and change patterns in a timely manner. I never hear WJNL Kingsley during their 2.5 kW Critical Hours operation. I have never heard them on at night. There may be times in the Winter when I have heard it during the solar noon period, but that is very rare. There is a station in Ohio that has been known to leave their transmitter on all night without modulation on a Class I-A channel. There tends to be more complaints if the station being interfered with is in a large city. I'm sure Bloomberg Broadcasting would report WDFN if it stayed on day pattern and power.
Anybody want to bring back the late Ray Livesay's 9kHz proposal.Supposedly all the daytimers (that existed in the late 70s) would fit on new graveyard channels with full time authorization. I question that there are many regional advertisers buying skywave. I almost never hear an Indianapolis or Columbus advertiser on WLW
There are very few advertisers buying anything after 7 PM, AM or FM, e-skip or skywave.
The problem with 9 kHz is that people are not buying new radios today. If they can't get a station on their existing radio, they won't listen to AM at all.
When the 9 kHz proposal was considered, the vast majority of radios were analog. Others had a digital display but were analog tuned. It was completely compatible. A big problem for those used to 10 kHz spacing would have been the 9 kHz audio heterodyne from adjacent stations at night in particular. Most digital radios have a 9 kHz setting, but I'm not sure these are on the right 1 kHz frequency.
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That's probably because there aren't enough Indy or Columbus folks listening to WLW for advertisers in those cities to bother with it. Indianapolis and Columbus have their own stations for locals to advertise on.
As much as I like to DX, I'm not fool enough to think that a station in San Francisco, LA, or anywhere else will care one whit if I'm listening in Phoenix. Their engineers might, but not anyone that counts (read: sales, marketing, and management) as far as revenue generation goes. I don't generate one thin dime of revenue for any station I listen to outside of metro Phoenix.
It's nice that at least someone in the industry recognises that there are night time skywave listeners -- especially when it's a representative of America's largest radio company.
I'm probably more of a night time skywave listener than a DXer. I like to actually listen to a lot of the programming on AM at night, whether talk, sports, or ethnic (and other) music. I always have.
I'm probably more of a night time skywave listener than a DXer. I like to actually listen to a lot of the programming on AM at night, whether talk, sports, or ethnic (and other) music. I always have.
I see that statement as nothing other than a self-serving one by an engineer of the company that owns many clear channel stations. It protects the status quo of stations like KFI, KOA, WTAM, WLW, WOAI and WHAS and all the former 1-B clears ranging from WOR to KTRH.
A change in skywave protection would benefit hundreds of local market stations and possibly make them viable for a while longer. Users of skywave tend to be old, few and unmeasurable; there is essentially no way to prove that there is anything other than occasional listening to skywave signals.
Point absolutely taken ... but WTVN hasn't broadcast Ohio State games in 30 years anyway. This isn't for a lack of trying, but while they have a lot of Buckeye coverage, they don't get the actual games.
As far as my listening is concerned, I've said in previous posts sports are the biggest reason I ever got into DXing in the first place as I loved catching distant baseball games as a kid back in the late 80s. As a Cubs fan, for all of those years games were broadcast on 720 and at night, I often listened to their broadcasts on radio rather than on an app. Just habit. Now that they are on WBBM, whose skywave signal just has not been great during the games so far this season when I've checked, I am doing my listening mostly via app. No chance I get them daytime here in Columbus.
It does when one takes into account that "night" includes the morning drive hours, in same cases even to 9:00 AM, much of the year. Of course, it mostly hinders AM reception in the morning drive, as many can't catch the news and traffic reports while they drive to work in the DA nulls. Perhaps a few "farm" AM stations benefit a little, especially if there are any that are allowed to go daytime pattern at East Coast sunrise.
I seriously doubt anyone in power is suggesting that clear channel class Bs would be allowed to use their daytime parameters all night. More likely, they would have to protect only the other stations' groundwave nighttime coverage from skywave interference, as is the case with class B and D (w/unprotected night operation) already. WDFN could soften their DA to have narrow 100 mV/m@1km nulls at NYC, Milwaukee, Mpls. and Shreveport, instead of very broad perfect zero nulls.
As far as I am concerned, the Class Is should not be allowed to "have their cake, and eat it too". They say their skywave service is important, but admit that they sell no ad time to the skywave audience, and some (now fewer, thank God) run HD radio at night.
HD radio hybrid mode at night on channels with 10kHz spacing is patently incompatible with skywave service. Even if listeners were okay with white noise about 5 dB below the content they wish to listen to (and they're not), the HD signal completely obliterating the desired signal in the selective fade ruins it altogether. The only reason to keep their class I status is to stop anyone else from making use the spectrum elsewhere.
If they really believe skywave service is useful, make it workable. Ban AM HD radio at night, and limit AM station audio to 5 kHz at night, except for those rare AM stations that actually broadcast music. If not, change the Class I stations to Class II+, with nighttime protection only of their 1 mV/m groundwave contour.
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The FCC already changed the way it computes skywave for domestic purposes. Only in the South do the I-A 50 U1 night 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave signals go out 750 miles. In the Northern tier of states, they only get out 400-450 miles already. Perhaps each could specify states where they would get full protection. WABC would get NY, NJ, CT, RI, PA, MA, DE, VT, NH, and ME, for example, states tied to their sphere of influence. Under treaty, the old skywave curves are still used.
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I think the iHeart engineer is suggesting that there is a widespread "usefulness" for continuing to protect the out of market skywave signals.
On the other hand, nobody is suggesting granting so much power to more restricted classes that they would interfere with the groundwave coverage at any time, day or night.
What makes sense now is reducing or eliminating skywave protection but not the groundwave. This would allow many stations to better cover their local markets without interfering with the groundwave of more dominant co-channel stations.
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