amtrak crash

[Oscar Madison]

I'm glad you're satisfied, Bob. Others are not, including me. Amtrak is a failure, just as Conrail was in freight. It's time to shut it down, just as Conrail was shut down.

A satisfactory and profitable service could be operated between Boston and DC, if not for the meddling of congress. They won't provide money for infrastructure (which Interstates and airports get routinely) and they saddle Amtrak with routes that will never be profitable. Result: The US has a 19th Century rail system that doesn't work as well as it did in the 19th Century - the worst passenger rail of any developed country.

 

[Bob Eubanks]

By that logic, the ideal option is not to shut down Amtrak but to fund it adequately (this applies to other passenger railway services as well). Not all services will be revenue positive directly, but contribute to the larger public good. Maybe build up this country's critical systems vs. fixing those we break elsewhere in the world.

If we actually provided adequate funding instead of forcing services like Amtrak to proberibally rob Peter to pay Paul, perhaps we'd have fewer problems across the board.

 

[TheBigA]

There was a story about this last night on 60 Minutes. "Adequate funding" translates to "tax increases," and that's a hard thing to do. Apparently the highway trust fund is in danger of default, which is why a lot of bridges are in such bad shape. To fix that, it would take an increase in the gas tax. Who wants to pay more for gas? People want a better life, but they don't want to pay for it. Lots of things are in this exact same situation. Including radio and music.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Not all services will be revenue positive directly, but contribute to the larger public good.

Can I get on my soap-box this morning? I want to flesh out that phrase "larger public good".

I grew up in the era when practically every farmhouse around had an outhouse. When I visited my cousins who lived in a small town near Waco, TX, every in-town residence in their neighborhood had an outhouse. (For you younger city-bred folks, that means everyone had a small garden potting-shed type building in the back yard where you retreated when you need to "take a dump".)

When the current political trends in what we finance and don't finance with public funds finally comes to full fruit, I expect to see one political party insist that since public sewer systems as we know them do not fit the 21st century business model, I expect to see a new trend where everyone goes down to Walmart or Target or Home Depot or Harbour Freight and buys some kind of overside plastic container that fits the trunk of their Lexus, their Chevy, Their Jeep 4x4 or whatever, and once or twice a week you transfer the "droppings" produced by the residents in your house into the container and you drive to the nearest business that for a (sizeable, hefty) fee, will accept your "droppings". Then we will be able to say: "We have finally purified the American economic system."

Maybe just like freeways and airports and sewage disposal plants, is it possible that MASS TRANSIT is a legitimate target for reasonable amounts of "public funding"? Our European friends seem to think so. I gather our Chinese friends are putting some money into rail technology that is "foreign" to us.

I am contemplating a move several states away that would put me in a small to medium northern metro area. My daughter who lives there has pointed out to me all the places in that town that I might want to go at time where cars are not allowed.... where no parking in available! "Dad, you need to acquire a house "that is in a walkable neighborhood". I have been watching the real estate market. I called her about a particular house and neighborhood the other day and I said "I assume this is one of those ragged neighborhoods where the real estate may not hold it's value?" and she replied: "No, that property would probably be 'golden' because it is less than two blocks from the old rail line which they will someday convert to commuter rail. Maybe not in your lifetime, but future buyers will know that they will in their lifetime see rail transit within a couple of blocks of that locations, and there will probably be a rail-station in walkable distance."

That conversation is today a reality, but we would not have had that conversation 20 years ago.

Maybe 20 years from now the American political warfare games played and orchestrated by the Talking Heads will sooner or later come face to face with reality.

 

[Bob Eubanks]

There was a story about this last night on 60 Minutes. "Adequate funding" translates to "tax increases," and that's a hard thing to do. Apparently the highway trust fund is in danger of default, which is why a lot of bridges are in such bad shape. To fix that, it would take an increase in the gas tax. Who wants to pay more for gas? People want a better life, but they don't want to pay for it. Lots of things are in this exact same situation. Including radio and music.

Very true--many things are. Schools, too--don't cut "my" favorite program (whatever that may be for each parent), but don't raise "my" taxes. (For the childless and seniors, it may be just cut the whole darned thing to the bone, in some cases.)

For bridges, roads, transit et al, I for one would pay more in taxes. It hurts the wallet. I get it. But then so, too, does getting the car re-aligned after hitting one of the seventeen million potholes.

That doesn't mean there aren't accountability concerns--there certainly are. And large funds of money attract corruption like moths to a flame. I get that. We can all point to the "$1200 toilet seats" in defense spending, too. Not entirely dissimilar problems when it comes to a curious blend of over-management on one hand and stunning lack of oversight on the other.

But we have shorted investments and passed off other bills for too long, and now the ramifications are starting to become clear. It's not one individual train mishap, which is still under investigation. It's the larger pattern across the board.

 

[TheBigA]

So why should a Congressman in Arizona want to appropriate funding so the people of Philadelphia can commute to work? What's in it for his state?

 

[Oscar Madison]

Here's a Republican solution (from the Eisenhower administration). Build a federal Interstate Railroad System. The government reclaims the trunk line rights of way, updates them to high-speed standards, removes all grade level crossings and then lets the rail lines use them. Like trucking companies and bus companies use the Interstate highways. Like railroads operate in the rest of the "first world." The railroads got free federal land when the railroads were built; they have been adequately compensated.

 

[TheBigA]

Everyone uses highways. Not so with railroads. Passenger service is only practical in a few areas.

 

[Bob Eubanks]

Here's a Republican solution (from the Eisenhower administration). Build a federal Interstate Railroad System. The government reclaims the trunk line rights of way, updates them to high-speed standards, removes all grade level crossings and then lets the rail lines use them. Like trucking companies and bus companies use the Interstate highways. Like railroads operate in the rest of the "first world." The railroads got free federal land when the railroads were built; they have been adequately compensated.

An interesting idea. A question not intended to be a smarta**: Do you also implement a system akin to airports and air traffic control to manage a common entry/exit point for passengers and ensure the trains run---and not into each other, on the finite track space?

 

[Fakeem]

Maybe i'm not up to speed, but I actually saw a commercial, on sunday, from a law firm, asking passengers on the Amtrak that crashed to contact them about suing. Do law firms normally run commercials trying to find victims so they can file lawsuits. Seems tacky to me...

 

[frankberry]

Unfortunately .... They do.

 

[TheBigA]

Do law firms normally run commercials trying to find victims so they can file lawsuits. Seems tacky to me...

They do, and it is.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Everyone uses highways. Not so with railroads. Passenger service is only practical in a few areas.

Come on. Your "world view" is a bit bigger than that. (Maybe the senators from some states don't have the ability to see the big view.)

Some PhD riding the commuter train to get to the research university laboratory in Philadelphia or Madison, WI**** or Denver, CO or at the Research Triangle in NC is going to develop the drug that may save the life of the Senator's mother, or save the farm crop of his brother by controlling the beetles or something. The
Arizona senator may have a daughter who is a computer programmer riding the commuter train to work in NYC or Philadelphia or San Francisco. She may not be able to get a job in her home state of Arizona because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to spend tax money on making cities liveable.

The Atlanta newspaper has been running highly researched stories about other metro areas and what they are doing about moving people and putting housing and jobs next to each other. They ran one a week or so ago about Montreal. Because they have the lake to the south of downtown, and essential forests with important watershed abilities north of downtown, their city by policy and regulation is building UP, not OUT. And I don't care how "out there" you live in Canada, it is in your best interest to see Toronto and other metro markets in the country thrive and prosper so they can help pay for infrastructure needed "out there".

My "family expert" on rail commutes says they are building a Montreal that is more suited to subways and rail transit than is even NYC. (Transit nightmare is having all the jobs over HERE and all the residential OVER THERE. When you "homegenize" a metro area with business and residential mingled together rather evenly, you get manageable loading and unloading.)

****(Madison doesn't have one yet!!!)

 

[TheBigA]

Come on. Your "world view" is a bit bigger than that. (Maybe the senators from some states don't have the ability to see the big view.)

Your parenthetical is to the point. I don't vote on appropriations bills. None of us do.

 

[Silkie]

Maybe i'm not up to speed, but I actually saw a commercial, on sunday, from a law firm, asking passengers on the Amtrak that crashed to contact them about suing. Do law firms normally run commercials trying to find victims so they can file lawsuits. Seems tacky to me...

Wouldn't it be nice if they donated some time and talent to work with prosecutors and investigators to find out who attacked the train, as evidenced by the windshield damage? It's not like the engineer was a novice to that route - he has been running the same route for more than five years.

That said, it's a shame Old Pennsy was put out of business. Now that was a sweet ride.

 

[Bob Eubanks]

Firtst you have to establish that there was an "attack" (or whatever you call it). The windshield is an important angle to examine, but not conclusive simply by the image. Is it possible the damage was part of what happened during the crash? Do we know even if something did strike the windshield that it caused the crash? By reports, two other trains were struck that night alone, and it is far from isolated, yet this one train crashed. That two things happened isn't proof of causation.

The engineer was experienced, but he wouldn't be, hypothetically, the first experienced professional to make an error or take an inadvisable risk.

 

[Ravens]

The majority of rail traffic outside the Northeast is freight. And the freight rail companies are doing just fine, and spend their own money on infrastructure.

Close all the Amtrak lines that no one takes, force them them to go private and stop overpaying the employees, and the Northeast Corridor could support a profitable railroad. The gravy train has to end at some point.

 

[TheBigA]

Close all the Amtrak lines that no one takes, force them them to go private

Who would want to take them without some federal guarantees? Sure on the surface, it looks profitable, but you have all those huge pensions to pay.

I'm sure this has been investigated before.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Close all the Amtrak lines that no one takes, force them them to go private and stop overpaying the employees, and the Northeast Corridor could support a profitable railroad. The gravy train has to end at some point.

At this point I have not found a game plan to revive intercity passenger rail or totally kill passenger rail that makes sense to me. Most of the suggestions, like your own, are based on personal political views with little or no foundational information to support the various views.

There is a whole new "breeze" blowing through the business sections of newspapers. The observations about 'millennia'. Now the business writers are focusing on the well educated, capable, energetic millenials. Even here in Ultra-Conservative Georgia, about 9 months ago I began noticing story after story about heavy-duty real estate players in our market beginning to acquire desirable office complexes now that we think the recession is over. And in story after story they explained: We acquired THIS property because it is adjacent to a MARTA station... or between two MARTA stations. (MARTA = rail in Atlanta.) They go on to explain that the Millennials that corporate America is hiring by the rail-car load like walkable neighborhoods where restaurants are plentiful and entertainment is near by, and their place of work or the rail connection is near by. Many of the stories roll out the mantra that the millennials are so burdened with college debt they can't afford a car.... and they really aren't fond of cars in the first place. If these were politicians talking.... I would discount the reports considerably. But these are successful, top-drawer business people... many of whom are known to hob-nob with the Republicans when it is time to talk politics.

(On the other hand, I notice that the folks that build the big production/performance center type mega-churches with 60 acres of suburban parking think they are converting all the Millennials with their loud bands and 'dancing gospel babes'. I guess the pastors did not get the memo that these young people don't like cars. )

Twenty years from now we may be able to sort all this out. I'm betting that the business investors have better research departments than do the churches, and if indeed there is a groundswell of people who prefer not to own cars and are doing quite well with their jobs working the business centers located across the street from research university campuses, inter-city passenger rail service could be up to their car-couplers in affluent rail-riding customers.

But..... for passenger rail service to get from it's current somewhat dysfunctional condition into what may be the land of milk-and-honey in the future.... may or may not work.

Convincing folks we are not going to see more and more of these train wrecks will be part of the formula.

 

[Ravens]

Who would want to take them without some federal guarantees? Sure on the surface, it looks profitable, but you have all those huge pensions to pay.

I'm sure this has been investigated before.

And therein lies the problem. Like everything else touched by the federal government, Amtrak is a jobs program first and a railroad second.

And all of this is moot since none of it has anything to do with the accident, which is likely just that. A terrible tragic accident. No amount of spending would have prevented it.

At this point I have not found a game plan to revive intercity passenger rail or totally kill passenger rail that makes sense to me. Most of the suggestions, like your own, are based on personal political views with little or no foundational information to support the various views.

There is a whole new "breeze" blowing through the business sections of newspapers. The observations about 'millennia'. Now the business writers are focusing on the well educated, capable, energetic millenials. Even here in Ultra-Conservative Georgia, about 9 months ago I began noticing story after story about heavy-duty real estate players in our market beginning to acquire desirable office complexes now that we think the recession is over. And in story after story they explained: We acquired THIS property because it is adjacent to a MARTA station... or between two MARTA stations. (MARTA = rail in Atlanta.) They go on to explain that the Millennials that corporate America is hiring by the rail-car load like walkable neighborhoods where restaurants are plentiful and entertainment is near by, and their place of work or the rail connection is near by. Many of the stories roll out the mantra that the millennials are so burdened with college debt they can't afford a car.... and they really aren't fond of cars in the first place. If these were politicians talking.... I would discount the reports considerably. But these are successful, top-drawer business people... many of whom are known to hob-nob with the Republicans when it is time to talk politics.

(On the other hand, I notice that the folks that build the big production/performance center type mega-churches with 60 acres of suburban parking think they are converting all the Millennials with their loud bands and 'dancing gospel babes'. I guess the pastors did not get the memo that these young people don't like cars. )

Twenty years from now we may be able to sort all this out. I'm betting that the business investors have better research departments than do the churches, and if indeed there is a groundswell of people who prefer not to own cars and are doing quite well with their jobs working the business centers located across the street from research university campuses, inter-city passenger rail service could be up to their car-couplers in affluent rail-riding customers.

But..... for passenger rail service to get from it's current somewhat dysfunctional condition into what may be the land of milk-and-honey in the future.... may or may not work.

Convincing folks we are not going to see more and more of these train wrecks will be part of the formula.

Of course anyone who disagrees with you is doing so for political reasons with no facts to support them. Meanwhile, you keep comparing commuter rail service with long distance rail, which are two different animals. Amtrak isn't SEPTA or NJ Transit, which are services that are essential to their cities and a subsidy isn't out of hand.

A trip from Philadelphia 30th Street to Penn Station in New York on New Jersey Transit is $15. On Amtrak it's anywhere between $54 and $100. Not any faster. Same tracks. No reserved seat. Train isn't a whole lot nicer. On average Amtrak STILL loses $5 on that trip.

Amtrak has a serious problem. It's not political to point that out.