Longwave Population in Severe Decline

[rbrucecarter5]

We already have "superpower" broad coverage radio stations: they are on the Internet.

As to purging the "small, unprofitable" operations... that is impossible because there is no such generalized thing. Many small market AMs are doing very nicely, and providing services such as local sports and information. And there are many small market AMs that are not doing well... their revenue base has been compromised by the big box stores and the consequent loss of local ad revenue.

The same applies in larger markets. There are many "similar" situations with stations in larger markets where apparent "no ratings" stations have major revenue bases coming from serving niches. KIRN, the Farsi station in Los Angeles, is an example of such a challenged-signal facility being a significant service for several hundred thousand people... a market that is much larger than that served by many medium and high power AMs in more sparsely populated areas.

There have been only two major reallocations of radio stations. First was the FRC action of the late 20's. That was intended to reduce the number of erratically operated hobby stations as well as to eliminate channel sharing and duplication in many cases. We were talking about only a few hundred stations in any case. Then there was the early-40's NARBA reallocation, which meant no change for stations below 750 AM and only minor changes of a few channels up or down for all others; most stations kept identical or near-identical facilities. Today, with nearly 5000 AMs, how would we decide who is doing "well" or not?

Add in the fact that in the two prior reallocations, there were relatively few directional stations. Directionals are very frequency-related, and moving them elsewhere on the dial or changing their characteristics can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per station... assuming no new real estate or transmitter site moves were required.

The bigger issue is that there is no need for a new class of service irrespective of coverage. There is very limited advertiser need for regional coverage, and nearly no money for such efforts. Any possibility of payoff is way to far in the future for anyone to invest in paying off less profitable stations, getting many others to move around the dial.

I just don't see much future for AM - and definitely none for Longwave. Our politically motivated, engineering challenged FCC has allowed extreme levels of interference from a myriad of devices - with no attempt at regulation. They might as well just rubber stamp any application that comes in, because interference from station glut could not possibly be any worse than the CFL bulbs, home networking, badly designed switching power supplies, etc. I was throwing out drastic ideas, none of which will happen because nobody cares what happens to stations they don't listen to on a band they don't listen to. Even the big, highly rated, powerful stations in cities are clamoring to get on FM because they can see the handwriting on the wall. I have a feeling their translators and HD channels will end up full power local stations as soon as they can arrange deals for shuffles. I expect CC or some other corporate radio to lobby heavily for an end to third channel protection, then second adjacent protection so more full power stations can cram the band - AM's fleeing the interference ridden band. And KellyA made an interesting point - in new software defined radios, 10.6 and 10.8 MHz protection is no longer needed. Even for the SRF-59. New radios mix IF down to DC t0 150 kHz, using quadrature methods to solve issues caused by that. They only need sharp low pass filters, which can be implemented easily in silicon - so there is no more 10.7 MHz IF and the associated LO 10.7 above the station. I don't know how many frequencies that will open up, but it may be a lot when all the situations are analyzed.

Pretty sad situation when all of the sudden a crammed FM band has to accommodate 5000 new stations - at the same time everybody wants a LPFM or nationwide translator network. Of course things that make sense like re-allocating TV channels 5 and 6 to FM won't even be considered. But - our FCC has made sure that minority ownership is going up. That is so much more important than technical issues.

 

[gar hi]

I just don't understand why talk and sports talk stations now have to be on FM.

Though I miss the days of AM top 40 music radio, it was easy to understand why they migrated to FM.

But how crystal clear does one have to hear a talk station?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I just don't understand why talk and sports talk stations now have to be on FM.

Though I miss the days of AM top 40 music radio, it was easy to understand why they migrated to FM.

But how crystal clear does one have to hear a talk station?

And you don't even need stereo for a talk station. One station in Orlando shut it off for the range increase. I remember a conversation I had with Ron Chapman - a long time radio personality in Dallas. We were talking about his studio segments with guests, whether he should do stereo and put them in one channel with him in another. The conclusion after some on-air experiments was that it is extremely irritating to listen to. Even a 60/40 mix, which is about as minimal as stereo gets is annoying. So the breaks between songs were all mono.

HD on talk and sports radio is even more ridiculous. 400 kHz of bandwidth for programming that requires only 3 kHz. Wasteful under any set of circumstances. Of course with HD radio, you could put several talk / sports stations on one frequency - which might be a good idea. If only HD actually WORKED the way it is supposed to. As it is - HD 2 through whatever - isn't it 9 - would be screwed over by limited range and dropouts. Nobody would want their talk show or game relegated to HD subchannels that aren't very reliable or robust.

 

[Mediafrog+]

The Russian longwave shutdown in April, 2014 took 23 LW stations off the air (Russia also whacked around two-thirds of its medium wave stations about the same time.) Also at the beginning of 2015 Germany's Deutschlandfunk and Deutschlandradio Kultur transmitters on 153, 177, and 207 kHz were shut down. Bulgaria's Horizont outlet on 261 kHz was also shut down at the beginning of the year. That leaves 24 longwave stations in the world still on the air (I am counting the BBC syncros on 198 kHz as one station.)

Longwave has tremendous groundwave coverage, but the broadcast transmitters are extreme high power, and very expensive to operate. With multiple FM transmitters providing excellent coverage in most cases (and better sound) there is an increasingly tiny audience for longwave. There are some cases where it still works, such as in Iceland, Algeria and Mongolia, which have large rural areas not covered by FM. Norway has a station on 153 kHz in the far north which is the only LW/MW left in that country. The Polish 225 kHz transmitter apparently still has a significant audience. And a few others are hanging in there as well.

But the clock is ticking for the remaining LWs. Strong speculation out of France is that the 162 kHz transmitter will be gone by the end of 2018. Ireland's RTE is planning to close 252 kHz sometime on 2017. The Czech station on 270 which had its power greatly reduced may be gone soon as well.

The last time I heard any proposals for longwave broadcasting in the U.S. was in the early 1980's, with talk of a series of high power transmitters that would act much as the old clear channel AMs had in previous decades. Nothing ever came of this. There have been some proposed LWs in Europe that never got off the ground.

Longwave is a fascinating aspect of broadcasting and DX, but also a relic of a mostly bygone era in technology. The only way I could see it being revived would be from adopting the DRM digital format (or some other digital variant.) Probably too late in the game for that.

 

[davideduardo]

As it is - HD 2 through whatever - isn't it 9 - would be screwed over by limited range and dropouts. Nobody would want their talk show or game relegated to HD subchannels that aren't very reliable or robust.

There is no difference between the strength of HD-1 and additional slices of the HD signal such as HD-2 or HD-3, etc.

In fact, the main difference between HD-1 and HD-2 is that in the event of a dropout, the HD-1 channel folds back to the analog signal.

Depending on the operator of a station with HD, more or less bandwidth may be allocated to each HD stream... it could be 90% in the HD-1 and just 10% in HD-2 for a data service or something decidedly low-fi. Or it might be 50% / 50% to HD-1 and HD-2. Or 50-30-20 for three HD channels.

 

[davideduardo]

Our politically motivated, engineering challenged FCC has allowed extreme levels of interference from a myriad of devices - with no attempt at regulation.

Name me one country in the world that has effectively attempted to control interference on the AM (Medium Wave) band.

To the contrary, our two neighbors, Canada and Mexico, have promoted the transition of AM stations to FM in most situations. But, unlike the US, neither nation had licensed so many AMs in proportion to the population. Mexico, with nearly 110 million population, peaked at just over 800 stations. The US, by contrast, had 5,000 so the ratio of stations here was three times higher than in Mexico and even greater than in Canada.

I was throwing out drastic ideas, none of which will happen because nobody cares what happens to stations they don't listen to on a band they don't listen to.

FM became the band of majority 38 years ago. It's a bit late to consider how to rescue a band that sounds bad, has static, and which two generations o Americans did not grow up using.

Even the big, highly rated, powerful stations in cities are clamoring to get on FM because they can see the handwriting on the wall.

I don't see WJR or KFI or KNX or or WGN or KMOX or WCBS or the vast majority of the "biggest" AMs pushing to go to FM. In fact, most are owned by companies that have FMs in each market but which they have chosen not to give over to the AM format. The big issue is not being AM, it is having formats that have aged out of interest no matter what band they are on.

And those "highly rated" stations have very little audience left under age 55, so they are not of much value for the future. Many of those that tried to go to FM or FM simulcasts have found they still have predominantly senior demos and face declining revenues.

 

[boombox4]

I don't see WJR or KFI or KNX or or WGN or KMOX or WCBS or the vast majority of the "biggest" AMs pushing to go to FM. In fact, most are owned by companies that have FMs in each market but which they have chosen not to give over to the AM format. The big issue is not being AM, it is having formats that have aged out of interest no matter what band they are on.

And those "highly rated" stations have very little audience left under age 55, so they are not of much value for the future. Many of those that tried to go to FM or FM simulcasts have found they still have predominantly senior demos and face declining revenues.

At least a couple of the stations you named are all news stations. So is all news a dying format, like news-talk, oldies, classic hits, etc.?

 

[Ai4i]

There is no difference between the strength of HD-1 and additional slices of the HD signal such as HD-2 or HD-3, etc.

Kind of!
I asked a CBS engineer why the HD2 on his station kept dropping out, but the main program never reverted to analogue on my receiver. He told me that he knew about this and that there are two ways to multicast and that with their method, the HD2 is actually closer to and more effected by the analogue sidebands than the HD1. If I remember correctly, and if I can paraphrase comedian Chevy Chase, one method is called extended hybrid and the other is not

 

[davideduardo]

Kind of!
I asked a CBS engineer why the HD2 on his station kept dropping out, but the main program never reverted to analogue on my receiver. He told me that he knew about this and that there are two ways to multicast and that with their method, the HD2 is actually closer to and more effected by the analogue sidebands than the HD1. If I remember correctly, and if I can paraphrase comedian Chevy Chase, one method is called extended hybrid and the other is not

I think that anecdotal remark warrants scrutiny.

The HD signal is a monolith, but it can be divided into multiple streams just as your cable can bring in different channels to different rooms and also carry telephone and Internet stream.

I've never heard that HD2 (or HD3 or beyond) is more subject to the effects of "analog sidebands" particularly since FM really does not have "sidebands" but "bandwidth" to accommodate frequency modulation.

 

[BMR]

A view from the land of 198.

Longwave is a dead duck, long term, but I and thousands of others use 198 droitwich as the main means of tuning in to cricket coverage in the car. Longwave also carries religious programming and some coverage of parliament. More than half of new cars in the UK come with digital radios. but there are literally millions if not tens of millions of legacy sets out there. Digital Radio is the future, but the future isn't here yet.

The Irish expat community in the UK is also complaining about the loss of RTE 252 as it is the only means of hearing news from home for many of them. Of course the younger generation is net savvy, but there are a significant number of 70 and 80 somethings who came to Britain in the 1950s who don't know anything else. There are various noises about putting RTE on digital radio, or failing that Freeview but nothing concrete yet.

 

[CTListener]

A view from the land of 198.

Longwave is a dead duck, long term, but I and thousands of others use 198 droitwich as the main means of tuning in to cricket coverage in the car. Longwave also carries religious programming and some coverage of parliament. More than half of new cars in the UK come with digital radios. but there are literally millions if not tens of millions of legacy sets out there. Digital Radio is the future, but the future isn't here yet.

Is longwave standard on car radios there or is it an option?

 

[Mediafrog+]

The Irish expat community in the UK is also complaining about the loss of RTE 252 as it is the only means of hearing news from home for many of them. Of course the younger generation is net savvy, but there are a significant number of 70 and 80 somethings who came to Britain in the 1950s who don't know anything else. There are various noises about putting RTE on digital radio, or failing that Freeview but nothing concrete yet.

RTE had planned to shut down 252 at the end of 2014, but complaints from the expats caused a delay. I think the current plan is to wean those listeners off longwave by cutting transmission hours, promoting alternative platforms, then closing 252 completely in 2017.

The big question is whether RTE has any mandate or obligation to serve the Irish expat community, most of whom left Ireland decades ago and thus have paid no taxes to support the public broadcaster.

It should also be pointed out that RTE has operated 252 only since 2004 (following the failure of two commercial efforts on the frequency) so it is hardly a legacy station. I suspect the actual audience is microscopic, mainly those listening out of habit while having more modern alternatives.

 

[cyberdad]

I just don't understand why talk and sports talk stations now have to be on FM.

Though I miss the days of AM top 40 music radio, it was easy to understand why they migrated to FM.

But how crystal clear does one have to hear a talk station?

It has to do with the fact that the bulk of audience is already tuned in exclusively to FM. Increasingly, the Gen-X and millenial demos have little, if any, awareness of the existance of AM radio.

 

[BMR]

Is longwave standard on car radios there or is it an option?

Generally you find it as standard. On some radios including mine you select LW directly, on others you just have an AM/FM switch so select AM, tune down below 530 AM, and the read out jumps to 279

Many of the latest digital radios just have DAB and FM,no longwave or medium wave, but most analogue car radios have longwave still.

 

[CTListener]

It has to do with the fact that the bulk of audience is already tuned in exclusively to FM. Increasingly, the Gen-X and millenial demos have little, if any, awareness of the existance of AM radio.

Are there studies that actually show this, or is this "conventional wisdom" just anecdotal? Do people born in the '70s-'00s really respond "AM radio? What's that?" when asked or do they just say something like "AM? I never listen to it. The sound sucks and I don't care about news or politics."? There's a big difference between not using something and being unaware that something even exists. That same demographic doesn't read newspapers much anymore, but I doubt many of them would say they have no idea what a newspaper is.

 

[Ai4i]

I've never heard that HD2 (or HD3 or beyond) is more subject to the effects of "analog sidebands" particularly since FM really does not have "sidebands" but "bandwidth" to accommodate frequency modulation.

I thought that digital information is sprayed evenly across the RF area over which or across which it is placed, but he (the CBS guy) could have been right, at least I can verify that the HD2 was dropping out while the HD1 was rock solid.

The term "sidebands" is used with regard to FM, but probably more importantly, the term "significant sidebands" refers to Carson's bandwidth rule, a mathmatical ratio of and combination of the highest modulating frequency and the total carrier deviation known as the "modulation index".
Then, Friedrich Bessel gets involved and everything gets even more confused.

 

[mimo]

People born in the 70's and 80's in the U.K. would have listened to AM while they were growing up, as that's where Radio 1 was. Even with some decent choices on FM, a lot of people still went over to the AM band to hear music, and outside of the major cities, AM was your only choice.

 

[BMR]

People born in the 70's and 80's in the U.K. would have listened to AM while they were growing up, as that's where Radio 1 was. .

Yes, Radio 1 didn't get an FM slot until 1988, and some remoter areas not until 1992ish. However it was never on longwave. In fact there are only two longwave allocations in Britain and Ireland.

198 longwave, which has been there since the 1930s. This carried the Light Programme until 1967 and then Radio 2 until 1978. Since then it has carried Radio 4. The longwave service opts out for cricket and some church services.

252 longwave, in Ireland since 1989. Until 2002 this was a pop service aimed at the UK- a 'border blaster' if you will. It was very popular, but FM listening did for it in the end. It now carries RTE as discussed above.

 

[mimo]

Yes, Radio 1 didn't get an FM slot until 1988, and some remoter areas not until 1992ish. However it was never on longwave. In fact there are only two longwave allocations in Britain and Ireland.

198 longwave, which has been there since the 1930s. This carried the Light Programme until 1967 and then Radio 2 until 1978. Since then it has carried Radio 4. The longwave service opts out for cricket and some church services.

252 longwave, in Ireland since 1989. Until 2002 this was a pop service aimed at the UK- a 'border blaster' if you will. It was very popular, but FM listening did for it in the end. It now carries RTE as discussed above.

I can't believe I had forgotten about 252, they were incredibly popular and even had a tv advert or two.

 

[Mediafrog+]

I can't believe I had forgotten about 252, they were incredibly popular and even had a tv advert or two.

252 made a pretty big splash when it launched. But the explosive growth of FM in Britain killed it after a dozen or so years. The later SportsTalk effort on 252 died very quickly.

There have been proposals to launch commercial LW stations in Norway and The Netherlands in the past 20 years, until financial and technological reality finally set in.