AM HD TURNOFF PACE ACCELERATES

[davideduardo]

So do you think if the FCC allowed for all-HD on the AM band it would be feasible. I.e., as you seem to have connections in the radio real world -- you think it would extend the life of the AM band? -- or would it just drive more listeners to other platforms instead?

Nobody buys stand-alone radios to replace the hundreds of millions of ones that are in homes and elsewhere, either as stand-alones or parts of multi-use devices.

And getting all those device manufacturers to put a costly iBiquity chip in commodity electronics items is unlikely.

To most listeners today, their phone or their car is their radio. It is better to look at how to improve usability of streams.

To think otherwise is to proceed directly from beating the dead horse to cooking the equine cadaver for a meal.

 

[Kelly A]

So do you think if the FCC allowed for all-HD on the AM band it would be feasible. I.e., as you seem to have connections in the radio real world -- you think it would extend the life of the AM band? -- or would it just drive more listeners to other platforms instead?

I think given the option, some owners with more than one AM station could be bold enough to make one full digital. But David is correct, the reality is people only buy smartphones now, not radios. About the only hope would be a slow migration may be possible as some vehicle manufacturers keep putting HD Radio capable radios in cars. My wife just traded in her Audi on a new Jaguar XF that came with HD radio, so they are still coming out. Now whether anyone will bother tuning in AM stations from their new car would be a question. My wife isn't a 50+ year old white male, so I doubt she would qualify as a current AM listener. If nothing at all is attempted, we will all be witnessing the slow death of the original electronic media.

 

[TheBigA]

And getting all those device manufacturers to put a costly iBiquity chip in commodity electronics items is unlikely.

We know that's true since hardly anyone is making or selling HD radios. At this year's Consumer Electronic Show, the organization president made it sound as though his members fully support HD radio. But the support it in word only.

 

[davideduardo]

I think given the option, some owners with more than one AM station could be bold enough to make one full digital. But David is correct, the reality is people only buy smartphones now, not radios. About the only hope would be a slow migration may be possible as some vehicle manufacturers keep putting HD Radio capable radios in cars. My wife just traded in her Audi on a new Jaguar XF that came with HD radio, so they are still coming out. Now whether anyone will bother tuning in AM stations from their new car would be a question. My wife isn't a 50+ year old white male, so I doubt she would qualify as a current AM listener. If nothing at all is attempted, we will all be witnessing the slow death of the original electronic media.

I just got our 5th BMW with HD in it. So nothing new there... except that the "trainer" who teaches you how to use all the features showed me how to turn off the HD in case it "bothered" us. I did not ask why it might be a bother, but suspect that since there are only a couple of HD equipped stations in the whole market, that it might just be an annoyance.

I already had turned it off. The excessive fallback to analog of HD stations and the slight delay differences are really annoying when driving back and forth from "the desert" to LA. Ain't worth the annoyance.

 

[Kelly A]

My wife actually has commented she prefers the audio quality of the HD signal, depending on the station, and hasn't asked me to disable it yet. Some stations here in the DC area WAY over-process their HD audio, so it sounds shrill and clipped (WWDC is a prime example, but their analog portion sounds like it is processed through a gym sock anyway). The thing she doesn't like, and was the case with her Audi too, is since we live 60 miles away in fringe, once closer to home the audio switches between the two modes and high frequencies and stereo separation differences pop in and out.

 

[KB1OKL]

Last week I was driving to Raleigh, NC and was disappointed to hear that WRVA in Richmond, VA wasn't transmitting HD anymore. I suspect their original HD Exciter or exporter bit the dust.

From what I hear in speaking with CE's who were doing AM-IBOC, the problem has been keeping the original almost-prototype exciters with spinning hard drives from failing. The manufacturers have pretty well discontinued support of these devices and repairs can take months. Contrary to what some on this forum believe, that public (DX'ers) pressure is the reason, in reality once stations have gone through their main and backup exciters, they just don't bother anymore.

We DX'ers realize that HD radio stations could not care less about DX'ers, and the reason stations just don't bother anymore is because of the complete apathy on listener's and broadcasters part. Why fix something .0001% of your total amount of listeners listen to?

 

[KB1OKL]

But that occurs mainly to listeners outside the market in what could be considered "fringe" coverage from or to adjacent channels. These days, stations aren't concerned with coverage outside their markets because there is no revenue attached. Again, it seems like only those interested in distance listening are actually affected.

Absolutely untrue. WBZ 1030 Boston hashes up Bob Savage's station on 1040 IN HIS OWN MARKET in Syracuse NY which is about 400 miles from WBZ.

 

[MarioMania]

Wow, Really??

It's just like WBZ trashed KDKA in some parts of Pittsburg

 

[KB1OKL]

Wow, Really??

It's just like WBZ trashed KDKA in some parts of Pittsburg

Oh yeah, google it. This from Wikipedia:

Savage has been a vocal opponent of the new HD Radio technology being used on the AM band, saying that the technology causes undue interference and unnecessary broadcast delay for minimal gain in quality.[1][2] He has since filed a formal complaint with the Federal Communications Commission over interference caused by WBZ's nighttime HD signal on the adjacent 1030 kHz frequency,[3] from which Savage had moved many years earlier to avoid that interference when his station went to a 24-hour broadcast schedule.

 

[davideduardo]

Absolutely untrue. WBZ 1030 Boston hashes up Bob Savage's station on 1040 IN HIS OWN MARKET in Syracuse NY which is about 400 miles from WBZ.

What does that have to do with Kelly's statement that stations did not care about coverage outside their metro because listening outside the market can not be monetized?

You are talking about a station with a very limited night signal getting skywave interference in its fringe coverage area. WBZ is not interested in covering suburban Rochester.

 

[landtuna]

I already had turned it off. The excessive fallback to analog of HD stations and the slight delay differences are really annoying when driving back and forth from "the desert" to LA. Ain't worth the annoyance.

Are you talking about AM HD specifically or both radio bands? I have had my Genesis HD radio for almost three years and never experienced the problems with drop outs or the back and forth HD-to-analog FM you speak about. And I've used my radio on a trip from Phoenix to El A on two occasions where, when I reach the end of coverage the radio just drops the signal and its gone. No switching. Analog FM tends to drop in and out at the fringe but not HD. The unit in my car is a Lexicon.

 

[TheBigA]

He has since filed a formal complaint with the Federal Communications Commission over interference

He filed his complaint a long time ago, and they ignored it, just as they ignored his repeated letters and phone calls. This is an FCC problem.

 

[davideduardo]

Are you talking about AM HD specifically or both radio bands? I have had my Genesis HD radio for almost three years and never experienced the problems with drop outs or the back and forth HD-to-analog FM you speak about. And I've used my radio on a trip from Phoenix to El A on two occasions where, when I reach the end of coverage the radio just drops the signal and its gone. No switching. Analog FM tends to drop in and out at the fringe but not HD. The unit in my car is a Lexicon.

I don't use AM much, so my experience is mostly with FM.

In many of the areas where the FM signal of the Mt Wilson Los Angeles FMs starts to be acceptable, as in around Banning in some cases, the HD will incessantly pop in and out. Nearer LA, it will sometimes fall back to analog in areas where there is no clean path, such as freeway interchanges and under bridges or where the road runs below ground level. Stations seem to have incessant problems with the delay timing, so the fallbacks are annoying.

On AM, stations like KFI and KNX will have decent signals from the eastern side of the Inland Empire, but the HD signals are cranky and come and go, with very radical changes in quality and dynamic range. And in the LA area, there are many places where they will drop out and fall back to analog... particularly with KNX which does not really have that great a signal in some parts of the market due to dial position and the transmitter location that is far from the San Gabriel and San Fernando valleys.

For the most part, PHX is a lot flatter where the bulk of the population lives than the overall LA metro. It is also a heck of a lot smaller, and the big PHX FMs are full C's 1500 feet above the market.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

David, what are KNX and KFI's signals like where you are in the desert, and what part of the desert is it?

For me, speaking of AM HD, near 32.761, -116.947 (near my house), on my semi-new-to-me Pioneer car stereo, KNX comes in HD intermittently, if I'm parked away from electrical interference and have the engine shut off. With the engine on, though, KNX was in and out of HD near Vista, about a couple miles or so southwest of the 1000 KCEO transmitter site. Going up I-15 in Riverside county, I have trouble with KNX HD there.
As for analog signals, I went to Quartzsite, AZ a few weeks ago or so, and was able to get KNX weakly and KFI with a moderately good signal at around local noon. Also from other areas, KALL was readable, as was KGO although less so.



Also I don't remember if Barry McLarnon, who runs the IBOC list, reads this often, but in case he does pop in here now and then...

I've noticed that 640 KFI hasn't been using HD for a few weeks now.

I've also observed that 1110 KDIS hasn't used HD at all (for a while they were daytime only) for at least several months, possibly a year or more.

About a month or so ago I observed that 950 XEKAM's HD was turned back on. (In April, I think, it was still off.)

 

[davideduardo]

David, what are KNX and KFI's signals like where you are in the desert, and what part of the desert is it?

I am in the "mountain side" of La Quinta, ground conductivity < 0.5. KFI can be heard, noisily, on the 10 in most of the Coachella Valley. Once you get off the freeway, there is generally too much noise to listen. I can detect it outside my home in the car, but indoors with the dimmers, CPUs in everything from the refrigerator to the TiVos, now way.

I can't get KNX above the noise level anywhere from N. Palm Springs to Thermal.

Amazingly, KFI was the network affiliate for Palm Springs in the 30's. Apparently then there was little noise and the signal came in nicely at night when the "good" shows were on.

 

[TheBigA]

Amazingly, KFI was the network affiliate for Palm Springs in the 30's. Apparently then there was little noise and the signal came in nicely at night when the "good" shows were on

We have taped proof that AM audio quality was better over 40 years ago, before the FCC started to make changes to the band. The amazing thing to me is that the same government that COULD do things to improve AM audio quality is actually doing things to make it worse. Meanwhile we get this endless parade of press releases from the same two commissioners who think they know how to "revive" the AM band.

 

[semoochie]

There's a great story about how Earle C. Anthony would bring prospective advertisers out into the desert listening to KNX until it faded away, then had them get out of the car and walk until KFI did the same! Can you imagine?

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I am in the "mountain side" of La Quinta, ground conductivity < 0.5. KFI can be heard, noisily, on the 10 in most of the Coachella Valley. Once you get off the freeway, there is generally too much noise to listen. I can detect it outside my home in the car, but indoors with the dimmers, CPUs in everything from the refrigerator to the TiVos, now way.

I can't get KNX above the noise level anywhere from N. Palm Springs to Thermal.

Amazingly, KFI was the network affiliate for Palm Springs in the 30's. Apparently then there was little noise and the signal came in nicely at night when the "good" shows were on.

That's interesting, David. When I was in Quartzsite, I was able to hear KNX with a weak but copyable signal...

https://youtu.be/1uMF7_awQYs?t=6m35s

It's definitely noisier than what I guess most non-DXers would listen to, but I'm sure you'd still recognize it as KNX. Last I checked, Quartzsite was considerably farther from KNX's transmitter than north Palm Springs.



Also, KFI had a medium strength signal in Quartzsite...

https://youtu.be/1uMF7_awQYs?t=1m25s (note: same video, links to a different time in the video)

I think reception on the car radio in Quartzsite is approximately comparable to reception on a moderately cheap pocket radio (a bit lower quality than the SRF-59) in El Cajon, CA, where I live. Also, someone who's blog posts I follow (radio-timetraveller.blogspot.com), who lives in Quartzsite in winter and near Rochester, NY in summer, has said he's faintly heard KFI just entering into New Mexico on I-40 with a 2006 Ford Ranger radio.



Speaking of KNX, they are in & out of HD at my house 111 miles away from their transmitter, as long as I'm not running the engine...

https://youtu.be/BwL47Y_WjMI?t=18m7s

But start my '02 Civic's engine, and I have to get a lot closer to get HD. (On analog signals I've even heard engine spark noise on signals around 120-130 mV/m!)

 

[Kelly A]

Why fix something .0001% of your total amount of listeners listen to?

Domestically I think that percentage needs about three more zeros to the right of the decimal point.

 

[KB1OKL]

What does that have to do with Kelly's statement that stations did not care about coverage outside their metro because listening outside the market can not be monetized?


You are talking about a station with a very limited night signal getting skywave interference in its fringe coverage area. WBZ is not interested in covering suburban Rochester.

Because the first part of his statement which is what I was referring to was untrue and Savages' experience proves it..

Posted by Kelly:
"But that occurs mainly to listeners outside the market in what could be considered "fringe" coverage from or to adjacent channels. These days, stations aren't concerned with coverage outside their markets because there is no revenue attached. Again, it seems like only those interested in distance listening are actually affected."