KFI drops the buzz!

[KB1OKL]

OK another CBS station has dropped the hash maker: The author a known IBOC radio booster wonders if this means the demise of AM radio is coming. This is comparing apples and oranges, HD radio was never good for AM radio, it doesn't come in good and causes more noise not less on the band it purports to rescue.

Most of the article was written from a pro IBOC standpoint with the premise that because a major player is dropping the buzz AM radio must be dead which makes no sense at all (although what other tack could a person who is invested in IBOC radio say; if HD is going away so must AM radio???). Whether or not AM radio is dying is another thing altogether, it has nothing to do with a very bad technology finally being phased out. I have reprinted some of the points he made:


"What makes KFI’s move significant is that the station has essentially given up on the AM HD signal. The significance? KFI was among the first to broadcast using HD, and it is — or was — considered one of the best success stories for HD digital broadcasts on the AM band. More on that later.

That KFI would drop its HD signal on AM may be a signal of sorts that owner IHeartMedia believes HD on AM is dead. Ultimately that would mean AM itself is dead since HD was originally conceived to help bring AM on par with FM in sound quality. If HD doesn’t work on KFI — among the most powerful stations in the United States and one in which it should work flawlessly — small stations are doomed. Or so some say.

The loss of HD wouldn’t be a bad thing if AM stations would open up their audio as they did during the AM stereo days; audio bandwidth was cut drastically on the analog signal to make room for the HD stream. Without HD, perhaps wideband AM can return. Wideband analog AM sounds wonderful on a good radio, though still noisier than HD."

More at:

http://www.dailynews.com/arts-and-e.../is-kfi-switch-a-sign-am-radio-is-really-dead

 

[davideduardo]

OK another CBS station has dropped the hash maker:

Why do you post multiple times that KFI is a CBS station? Even the article says it is an iHeart property.

The article is very confusing, basically talking about KFI being carried on an HD-2 channel of another iHeart FM station.

The good thing about it all is that KFI, on AM, sounds a lot better now because they have full 10 kHz audio bandwidth, not the 5 to 6 kHz that HD required them to have on the analog audio.

 

[K.M. Richards]

What I find ironic is the Daily News' usual bad choice of headline verbiage:
Is KFI switch a sign AM radio is really dead?

Given that KFI is likely going to be one of the last surviving stations on AM as all of the lesser signals eventually call it quits over the next few decades, nothing could be farther from the truth the DN implies.

OTOH, the author (Richard Wagoner, who has been writing a weekly radio column for the newspaper group that owns the DN for a couple of decades now) has been known to read more than the reality into occurrences many times in the past. Among other things, he once thought KRTH and KCBS-FM should swap frequencies, with 93.1 taking the KHJ-FM call letters and calling itself "93/KHJ". I can't even begin to list the reasons why that can't happen.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Why do you post multiple times that KFI is a CBS station? Even the article says it is an iHeart property.

The article is very confusing, basically talking about KFI being carried on an HD-2 channel of another iHeart FM station.

The good thing about it all is that KFI, on AM, sounds a lot better now because they have full 10 kHz audio bandwidth, not the 5 to 6 kHz that HD required them to have on the analog audio.

My friend in the LA area that listens to KFI from out in Cherry Valley just told me it is a lot stronger now. I had to talk him through a repair to the ground on his car radio antenna reception was so weak a couple of years ago.

 

[davideduardo]

My friend in the LA area that listens to KFI from out in Cherry Valley just told me it is a lot stronger now. I had to talk him through a repair to the ground on his car radio antenna reception was so weak a couple of years ago.

Any increase in strength now compared to "a couple of years ago" has nothing to do with HD.

"A couple of years ago" KFI was broadcasting from the Montecito Heights location formerly used by KRKD (AM 1150) in an area with poorer ground conductivity and using an electrically shorter tower.

This was because a plane hit the "big" stick in Buena Park and it took several years to get the permits and approvals to rebuild the tower. In the intervening time, the signal was dramatically worse than at the beautiful main site which Earle C. Anthony built about 8 decades ago.

You just can't always blame the weatherman for the weather, Bruce.

 

[davideduardo]

OTOH, the author (Richard Wagoner, who has been writing a weekly radio column for the newspaper group that owns the DN for a couple of decades now) has been known to read more than the reality into occurrences many times in the past.

That's my impression, too.

KFI is hardly "moving to FM" as the penetration of HD capable radios is miniscule. But, given that AM is barely used by the under-55 crowd (except, somewhat, for sports) iHeart may have considered the possibility that a few listeners might hit on KFI while scanning the FM dial and stick around. There is no significant cost involved, and it's a safe hedge.

The unanswered question is whether KFI has truly eliminated HD altogether, or perhaps they have been using an auxiliary transmitter that is not HD equipped or are having trouble with the HD exciter.

 

[davideduardo]

The unanswered question is whether KFI has truly eliminated HD altogether, or perhaps they have been using an auxiliary transmitter that is not HD equipped or are having trouble with the HD exciter.

The grapevine is in high data rate operation today. I got confirmation that KFI's AM HD is permanently disconnected. The belief is that they are best served by a fuller fidelity analog signal that goes right up to the NRSC cut.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I noticed KFI's HD was off about 2 months ago.

 

[KB1OKL]

Why do you post multiple times that KFI is a CBS station? Even the article says it is an iHeart property.

The article is very confusing, basically talking about KFI being carried on an HD-2 channel of another iHeart FM station.

The good thing about it all is that KFI, on AM, sounds a lot better now because they have full 10 kHz audio bandwidth, not the 5 to 6 kHz that HD required them to have on the analog audio.

My mistake, I googled KFI with CBS tacked on and every hit had CBS in addition to KFI, it is a clear channel station (I heart radio)

 

[tomservo]

I'm glad they finally saw the light on the AM HD, but it doesn't have anything to do with the health (or lack thereof) of the AM band in general.

With the exception of powerful, economically strong stations in a few markets, it appears AM is not about to die, it probably died 5-10 years ago and no one has noticed yet. HD appears to have neither helped nor hindered AM's rank as a desirable listening place in people's minds at all.

 

[crainbebo]

Great! Glad that another big one turned off the buzzsaw. Now send the memo to KSL...please?

-crainbebo

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Any increase in strength now compared to "a couple of years ago" has nothing to do with HD.

"A couple of years ago" KFI was broadcasting from the Montecito Heights location formerly used by KRKD (AM 1150) in an area with poorer ground conductivity and using an electrically shorter tower.

This was because a plane hit the "big" stick in Buena Park and it took several years to get the permits and approvals to rebuild the tower. In the intervening time, the signal was dramatically worse than at the beautiful main site which Earle C. Anthony built about 8 decades ago.

You just can't always blame the weatherman for the weather, Bruce.

Clarification - I looked up the email - it was more like 5 to 6 years ago - before the accident with the tower. Time flies! But I talked with him the other day, he noticed a recent increase in signal strength - a big one. He thought maybe his ground connection in the car had been intermittent. He is now aware of the comments on this board regarding KFI HD. His radio was not HD equipped, not that KFI's HD would have reached that far anyway. He says it sounds better, holds in under bridges better, etc.

 

[Kelly A]

I'm glad they finally saw the light on the AM HD, but it doesn't have anything to do with the health (or lack thereof) of the AM band in general.

With the exception of powerful, economically strong stations in a few markets, it appears AM is not about to die, it probably died 5-10 years ago and no one has noticed yet. HD appears to have neither helped nor hindered AM's rank as a desirable listening place in people's minds at all.

Wait...huh? I have no idea what you just said.. "AM is not about to die, it probably died 5-10 years ago?"

 

[davideduardo]

Clarification - I looked up the email - it was more like 5 to 6 years ago - before the accident with the tower. Time flies! But I talked with him the other day, he noticed a recent increase in signal strength - a big one. He thought maybe his ground connection in the car had been intermittent. He is now aware of the comments on this board regarding KFI HD. His radio was not HD equipped, not that KFI's HD would have reached that far anyway. He says it sounds better, holds in under bridges better, etc.

I am ultra-fringe to KFI, but can get a readable signal in my car (not indoors) as there are no above ground power lines for about a half-mile. There is no change at all in the daytime signal between earlier this year and today. What has changed is the "crispness" or "presence" of the audio, which sounds better despite the limitations of the NRSC mask.

 

[davideduardo]

Clarification - I looked up the email - it was more like 5 to 6 years ago - before the accident with the tower. Time flies! But I talked with him the other day, he noticed a recent increase in signal strength - a big one. He thought maybe his ground connection in the car had been intermittent. He is now aware of the comments on this board regarding KFI HD. His radio was not HD equipped, not that KFI's HD would have reached that far anyway. He says it sounds better, holds in under bridges better, etc.

The tower incident was in 2004 and KFI was on an "emergency site" for nearly 5 years until they got permission to rebuild, although about 10% shorter than the original tower.

Any improvement in sound is due to using the full 10 kHz audio bandwidth. HD does not "consume" analog power. KFI was and is a 50 kw analog station.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I see, based on before and after signal strength readings on my Tecsun radios, that HD doesn't affect the analog signal's received field intensity. (I need to double check though, for example by comparing videos I've recorded when KFI's HD was on, vs now.)

I'm wondering if the perceived difference in strength is possibly because, for one thing like I think Bruce said in another thread, the HD sidebands confuses the radio's AGC and it turns down the gain. Or, for example, on my Sony SRF-42 (a wideband AM Stereo radio), you hear the noise mixing with the audio. (I should also check the GE Superradio 3, which also has wideband but no AM Stereo.)

On the other hand, on my DSP-based Tecsuns, I generally haven't noticed a difference in perceived audible strength, with HD on vs off.

 

[KR4BD]

The tower incident was in 2004 and KFI was on an "emergency site" for nearly 5 years until they got permission to rebuild, although about 10% shorter than the original tower.

Any improvement in sound is due to using the full 10 kHz audio bandwidth. HD does not "consume" analog power. KFI was and is a 50 kw analog station.

In theory you MAY be right about HD not consuming analog power, BUT when WLW dumped the hash many months ago, their signal at my location (80-90 miles south of their site) ABSOLUTELY became stronger and steadier. I've noticed the same thing on other AM HD stations after they wised-up and dumped the noise filled sidebands.

 

[Kelly A]

I see, based on before and after signal strength readings on my Tecsun radios, that HD doesn't affect the analog signal's received field intensity. (I need to double check though, for example by comparing videos I've recorded when KFI's HD was on, vs now.)

I'm wondering if the perceived difference in strength is possibly because, for one thing like I think Bruce said in another thread, the HD sidebands confuses the radio's AGC and it turns down the gain. Or, for example, on my Sony SRF-42 (a wideband AM Stereo radio), you hear the noise mixing with the audio. (I should also check the GE Superradio 3, which also has wideband but no AM Stereo.)

On the other hand, on my DSP-based Tecsuns, I generally haven't noticed a difference in perceived audible strength, with HD on vs off.

Unlike what Bruce keeps insisting, technically HD doesn't reduce the field strength or carrier power, but the distribution of modulation.

I suspect your observations are based on two factors: 1. (As David said), the NRSC mask and preemphasis change to 10kHz increases high frequency energy that cuts through noise better than being limited to 5-6kHz, 2. Increased available sideband analog modulated sidebands.. Remember that the HD modulation occupies both sidebands, which depending on propagation characteristics at the time and location, allows for audio to be received via the sidebands, rather than what was digital modulation. Analog modulation is occupying the entire carrier, not just the center-ish.

The same goes if a station was all-digital modulation. Fringe reception for digital would be improved because the entire carrier would be digitally modulated rather than just a portion.

We discovered a similar reaction after turning off AM stereo years ago. Fringe area listeners were sure we had increased power, when actually all we did was disconnect the stereo exciter and jack up the audio processing.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Unlike what Bruce keeps insisting, technically HD doesn't reduce the field strength or carrier power, but the distribution of modulation.

I suspect your observations are based on two factors: 1. (As David said), the NRSC mask and preemphasis change to 10kHz increases high frequency energy that cuts through noise better than being limited to 5-6kHz, 2. Increased available sideband analog modulated sidebands.. Remember that the HD modulation occupies both sidebands, which depending on propagation characteristics at the time and location, allows for audio to be received via the sidebands, rather than what was digital modulation. Analog modulation is occupying the entire carrier, not just the center-ish.

The same goes if a station was all-digital modulation. Fringe reception for digital would be improved because the entire carrier would be digitally modulated rather than just a portion.

We discovered a similar reaction after turning off AM stereo years ago. Fringe area listeners were sure we had increased power, when actually all we did was disconnect the stereo exciter and jack up the audio processing.

Something is definitely different when stations shut down HD. WBAP went from a weak signal - to penetrating the office where I work - on the Katy Freeway in HOUSTON. My car radio has a 5 bar signal strength meter. From two bars to FOUR. Only difference was HD off. WOAI went from a pitiful weak signal to sounding almost local - almost as strong as local 1180 at my location. I notice this on multiple radios - car and portable. HD seems to stand for "Highly Destructive" - to signal strength and building penetration.

I suspect WBAP really does care about rural listeners surrounding DFW, I've heard multiple advertisements from local businesses in small towns up to 100 miles away. Towns without local radio stations. I've suspected WOAI is after the rapidly expanding Austin market. Both stations also play a lot of advertisements for national good and services, so commercials would be just as relevant no matter where you are listening. Of course this could also be in response to streaming - but why would anybody stream when the same show is available multiple places on the dial?

 

[davideduardo]

Something is definitely different when stations shut down HD. WBAP went from a weak signal - to penetrating the office where I work - on the Katy Freeway in HOUSTON. My car radio has a 5 bar signal strength meter. From two bars to FOUR. Only difference was HD off. WOAI went from a pitiful weak signal to sounding almost local - almost as strong as local 1180 at my location. I notice this on multiple radios - car and portable. HD seems to stand for "Highly Destructive" - to signal strength and building penetration.

I suspect the differences are caused in your radio, not at the station. There may be bandwidth issues as well as AGC concerns that affect what you have described as a modified high-end radio. 99.99% of consumers don't have such gear. We program for them.

I suspect WBAP really does care about rural listeners surrounding DFW, I've heard multiple advertisements from local businesses in small towns up to 100 miles away.

That's likely the national advertisers who are "rewarding" dealers via co-op tagging. No small local business 100 miles from Dallas could afford Dallas radio rates.

've suspected WOAI is after the rapidly expanding Austin market.

No again. Austin is a separate radio market, bought separately. And at different rates.

Both stations also play a lot of advertisements for national good and services, so commercials would be just as relevant no matter where you are listening.

That's not the way radio is bought at the national level. WOAI does not have big enough Austin numbers to be on a buy list for the market, anyway.

Of course this could also be in response to streaming - but why would anybody stream when the same show is available multiple places on the dial?

Stations stream because to many people today, their smartphone or tablet is their radio.