Addition By Translation?

[flybynight]

Sure, since you can predict hot social trends, maybe you can also tell me which stock I should buy.

Being out of your area of expertise certainly never stopped you from having a strong opinion.

Between 10 & 20 years ago, many of the large/major market talk programmers I'd spoken with voiced concern that the direction the format was taking was dangerous demographically. While the format was often more conservative friendly, it was thought that steering the programming too far in one direction, especially politically, was going to be problematic.

Unfortunately the decision-makers with the most control didn't care as much about the future as they did about aping the current successful act. It was lazy and short-sighted, and now the piper needs to be paid.

 

[TheBigA]

It was lazy and short-sighted, and now the piper needs to be paid.

The time period you give includes the Hot Talk era, which was hardly a political talk format. A lot of very big stations put a lot of effort into local and syndicated hot talk, trying to grab some of the Howard Stern excitement. And as I've pointed out to you many times, there are tons of local talk hosts who've made careers by ignoring politics. Even those stations are finding it tough going right now. You can only see a handful of syndicated conservative hosts. So I don't see things exactly as you do. Lots of things were tried. Some succeeded for a while. Few have been as consistent as the current format. It's dying for several reasons, including the concurrent death of the AM band.

 

[flybynight]

The time period you give includes the Hot Talk era, which was hardly a political talk format. A lot of very big stations put a lot of effort into local and syndicated hot talk, trying to grab some of the Howard Stern excitement. And as I've pointed out to you many times, there are tons of local talk hosts who've made careers by ignoring politics. Even those stations are finding it tough going right now. You can only see a handful of syndicated conservative hosts. So I don't see things exactly as you do. Lots of things were tried. Some succeeded for a while. Few have been as consistent as the current format. It's dying for several reasons, including the concurrent death of the AM band.

I am NOT talking about the misguided T&A talk format that you call "hot talk". I'm talking about a much more relatable and better rounded format---one where the KFI version of Tom Leykis would've been the prototype. Think: talkradio that's more active, less stuffy, more energetic and personality-driven, but still hits all the hot-button current events without some rigid ideological bent.

 

[TheBigA]

I am NOT talking about the misguided T&A talk format that you call "hot talk".

I don't care what you're talking about. You made an accusation that the radio industry as a whole focused 100% on conservative talk, and the facts show that's not true.

Radio stations and program suppliers did many other things, and continue to offer many other approaches to talk.

 

[flybynight]

I don't care what you're talking about. You made an accusation that the radio industry as a whole focused 100% on conservative talk, and the facts show that's not true.

Where and when did I say THAT exactly? The whole industry? lol

Radio stations and program suppliers did many other things, and continue to offer many other approaches to talk.

Not in any meaningful way. All the heritage sticks were dedicated to Limbaugh clones. Were you even paying attention to talk in the past 20 years? Doesn't seem like it.

 

[TheBigA]

Where and when did I say THAT exactly?

Do you READ what you write? Who did you say was "lazy and short-sighted?"

Not in any meaningful way.

That's not the point. The options have been made available, and the audience chose conservative talk. That's not the industry's fault. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You act like nothing else has been done just because one has been the most popular. That ignores all the other attempts.

Not ALL heritage sticks were Limbaugh clones. I'd consider WGN to be heritage. Lots of similar stations around the country. Plus once again, the hot-talk format was very popular on FM, even if YOU didn't like it. I'm not programming to just one person.

 

[flybynight]

Do you READ what you write? Who did you say was "lazy and short-sighted?"

I was referring to many of those above the local talk PD's who didn't understand or care about the looming problems ahead. That is hardly the "whole industry".

The options have been made available, and the audience chose conservative talk. That's not the industry's fault.

They didn't have to engage in a veritable ethinc cleansing of the format!

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You act like nothing else has been done just because one has been the most popular. That ignores all the other attempts.

I don't consider half-assed attempts on inferior signals to be legit. Don't be so naive.

Not ALL heritage sticks were Limbaugh clones. I'd consider WGN to be heritage. Lots of similar stations around the country.

The overwhelming majority were.

Plus once again, the hot-talk format was very popular on FM

No, it really wasn't. You'll now throw out the 2 examples of where it worked in that incarnation, but the majority FAILED, because it was done horribly.

 

[TheBigA]

I was referring to many of those above the local talk PD's who didn't understand or care about the looming problems ahead. That is hardly the "whole industry"

But you make it sound like every talk station in the country did only one thing, and factually that's not true. However, if something is popular, it's not my job to tell fans of that format that they're idiots who are ruining radio, so therefore I will take what they love away and give them something else. It's not lazy or short-sighted to give the people what they want. It's my job. It's kept me employed for a very long time.

Right now, there are a lot of very popular talk stations not doing conservative national politics. Most of them are on FM. The problem right now is a combination of a dying format and a dying AM band. Not much anyone can do about the latter.

I don't consider half-assed attempts on inferior signals to be legit. Don't be so naive.

I don't know what you're talking about. I've presented very popular talk formats that were heard on major FM signals. Some still are. You just don't like them, but I don't care. Don't ignore something just because you don't like it. Hot talk was a big success for a time, and was a very good alternative to conservative talk.

 

[flybynight]

I've presented very popular talk formats that were heard on major FM signals. Some still are.

Care to name them? It shouldn't take very long because I guarantee it's a very short list.

Hot talk was a big success for a time, and was a very good alternative to conservative talk.

Outside of a very few markets, it wasn't. Name those successes you speak of.

 

[TheBigA]

Care to name them? It shouldn't take very long because I guarantee it's a very short list.

Outside of a very few markets, it wasn't. Name those successes you speak of.

I already have, but you can't see what you don't like.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter. AM radio is dying. It's no longer a function of programming.

 

[flybynight]

I already have, but you can't see what you don't like.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter. AM radio is dying. It's no longer a function of programming.

Translation: "I don't really have many (or any) examples. I just think it worked for a time."

 

[TheBigA]

Translation: "I don't really have many (or any) examples. I just think it worked for a time."

You just make crap up, don't you? I gave examples in this thread. You dismissed them. But I gave examples. And they worked. In some cases, they're still working. As in WGN.

 

[flybynight]

You just make crap up, don't you? I gave examples in this thread. You dismissed them. But I gave examples. And they worked. In some cases, they're still working. As in WGN.

Yes, you said WGN. Great. That is a rather new incarnation of that station, hardly an example of how big sticks were plenty willing to do something other than Limbaugh clones 24/7.

The overwhelming majority of talk stations ran the Limbaugh act and then the tea party parade, right down the rabbit hole---or into the ditch on the side of the road---whichever you prefer.

There was no concerted effort to avoid the content dilemma the format has clearly painted itself into a corner with.

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, you said WGN. Great. That is a rather new incarnation of that station, hardly an example of how big sticks were plenty willing to do something other than Limbaugh clones 24/7.

How many would you like? How do you feel about KOMO in Seattle? That's a pretty big stick. What do you think about NJ101.5 in Trenton. It covers the whole state. As I said, quite a few very successful talk stations who are not in the Rush hole. iHeart, the syndicator of Rush's show, made the gutsy decision to segregate Rush's show on it's own station in several markets, such as LA and San Francisco, to minimize the negativity their own host was causing. You won't find Rush or any of his clones on WLW or KFI for example. "No concerted effort?" Whatever you say big boy.

 

[flybynight]

How many would you like? How do you feel about KOMO in Seattle? That's a pretty big stick. What do you think about NJ101.5 in Trenton. It covers the whole state. As I said, quite a few very successful talk stations who are not in the Rush hole. iHeart, the syndicator of Rush's show, made the gutsy decision to segregate Rush's show on it's own station in several markets, such as LA and San Francisco, to minimize the negativity their own host was causing. You won't find Rush or any of his clones on WLW or KFI for example. "No concerted effort?" Whatever you say big boy.

Yup, there's NJ101.5. That's the one I was waiting for. It's uniquely Jersey, which is mostly ignored by Philly radio to the south and NYC radio to the north. They've done well for years. But what else ya got?

Oh, KFI isn't conservative? Firstly, they jettisoned Rush less than 2 years ago after a 20+ year run, and secondly, they have been almost all conservative since the early 90's!
Otherwise, great example!

Let's see...WLW? Not conservative? LOL!
You are such a card.

KOMO is all-news and in 18th place.

Want an example of a great talkradio station? WABC when John Mainelli programmed it. He had liberals, conservatives and moderates on the schedule. The common thread of the hosts was an interesting personality, not political ideology. When he left the station they were #2 in the #1 market. The next PD decided to play all-conservative all-the-time and the station never saw that level of success again.

 

[TheBigA]

They've done well for years. But what else ya got?

I gave you examples of powerful stations that don't carry Rush or his clones, and you don't like them. They're successful stations in the talk format. As I said, lots of stations have made a concerted effort to succeed. That's what you wanted, isn't it? They've come up with alternative approaches that are working, attracting audiences, and not going down the Rush hole. So contrary to your claim, lots of people are doing something. Lots of stations have made, to use your own words, "a concerted effort to avoid the content dilemma." They did it!

Want an example of a great talkradio station? WABC when John Mainelli programmed it.

And when was that? From 1984 to 1995. Fully 20 years ago! So what you really want is for the world to go back to the way it was 20 years ago. Typical boomer thinking. If we could just turn back time, everything would be wonderful. Thanks for that. I needed a chuckle.

 

[flybynight]

I gave you examples of powerful stations that don't carry Rush or his clones, and you don't like them. They're successful stations in the talk format. As I said, lots of stations have made a concerted effort to succeed. That's what you wanted, isn't it? They've come up with alternative approaches that are working, attracting audiences, and not going down the Rush hole. So contrary to your claim, lots of people are doing something. Lots of stations have made, to use your own words, "a concerted effort to avoid the content dilemma." They did it!

Nonsense.

Contrary to what you keep regurgitating, the VAST MAJORITY of talk stations, especially the biggest, did NOT do anything to avoid the current situation. They happily went down the Rush rabbit hole and are paying the price for it now. For every ONE station that did "something" (according to you) that was different, I can name FIFTY that didn't.

And when was that? From 1984 to 1995. Fully 20 years ago! So what you really want is for the world to go back to the way it was 20 years ago. Typical boomer thinking. If we could just turn back time, everything would be wonderful. Thanks for that. I needed a chuckle.

Ahhh, the old copout. The further away we get from a time when something was needlessly departed from, the more people like you love to say "well, that was "X" amount of years ago...that was then...you're stuck in the past...blah blah blah". The point IS, that should not have been abandoned. It was changed due to an ideological concept---not a reaction to failure.

You do NOT know the history of the format in that regard and it's obvious.

 

[davideduardo]

Contrary to what you keep regurgitating, the VAST MAJORITY of talk stations, especially the biggest, did NOT do anything to avoid the current situation. They happily went down the Rush rabbit hole and are paying the price for it now. For every ONE station that did "something" (according to you) that was different, I can name FIFTY that didn't.

That's an oversimplification. While hundreds of talk based stations added Rush, they did it due to the success of the early adopters. KFI in LA overcame the more "balanced" and varied KABC by putting him on, and then saw the station go to #1. KABC declined into oblivion.

And Rush is one program. Stations that carried him did everything from lots of other local talent to a smorgasbord of syndicated talk in markets that could not find or afford local talent.

Ahhh, the old copout. The further away we get from a time when something was needlessly departed from, the more people like you love to say "well, that was "X" amount of years ago...that was then...you're stuck in the past...blah blah blah". The point IS, that should not have been abandoned. It was changed due to an ideological concept---not a reaction to failure.

Not a cop-out. Just reality. By the mid-80's, AM was nearly dead save for some heritage stations of the WCCO-WSB-WJR variety. Rush formed a base where many AMs could convert from MOR formats to successful talk at that time. While saying that Rush saved AM is perhaps another oversimplification, the fact is that going all-talk in many markets was based on having Rush and, in most cases, Dr. Laura. It worked for the better part of two decades.

You do NOT know the history of the format in that regard and it's obvious.

There are several eras in talk. The first in Post-TV times was based on the WGN / WOR / WABC transitioning from block programming that included music or a wide range of hots and subjects that varied from women's shows to sports. Then we had the Post-FM era, described above. Now we have the Post-Rush era where we find that Gen-Xers who mature are not into talk radio, particularly (but not limited to) on AM. And forget the Millennials.

The problem is that everyone from CBS and iHeart to Premiere, Air America and Westwood One have not found the next formula. And they have tried with experiments like KLSX in LA, which collapsed with the loss of Stern proving that there is no such thing as Hot Talk.

 

[TheBigA]

Contrary to what you keep regurgitating, the VAST MAJORITY of talk stations, especially the biggest, did NOT do anything to avoid the current situation.

First of all, your original post wasn't about the "vast majority," but the entire format. So now you've backpeddled a bit in the light of conflicting information.

The other thing is that up until about two years ago, that "vast majority" you talk about also had pretty good ratings with conservative talk. To move away from it would have been stupid. The "Rush rabbit hole" you talk about served them well for an entire generation. That's not bad for something you abhor.

But still, as I've continued to point out, and you refuse to accept, there were many who didn't sit back and do what you call the lazy thing. So you're wrong about that. They didn't stick with conservative talk because they were lazy, but because it was successful, and what their audience wanted. Then when it wasn't, they threw out the syndicated screamers, and found success with local talk. It's working well in lots of places, as I've already pointed out.

It was changed due to an ideological concept---not a reaction to failure.

Ahhh the old copout. There's a right wing conspiracy in radio ownership that forced conservative talk on its listeners. Next you'll lecture me about Mitt's role in Bain and how he masterminded the whole thing. Go back to your basement bomb shelter. In 1995, the old talk format you loved was dying. Not in the ratings, but from old age. Larry King, once the King of the Night, was the canary. He realized it and left for TV right about the time Mainelli got fired. Michael Jackson retired. The old guard was leaving. The same thing is happening now, 25 years later. And not because Obama is out to get Rush, but because everything has its time, and after 25 years, it's time is usually up. Not because of ideology, but because the fad is finally over. The only problem is that AM radio is also done, and there's nothing anyone can do to save it.

 

[davideduardo]

Oh, KFI isn't conservative? Firstly, they jettisoned Rush less than 2 years ago after a 20+ year run, and secondly, they have been almost all conservative since the early 90's!
Otherwise, great example!

KFI is not conservative. It had one conservative show, but the rest... from John & Ken to Handel are on the progressive side of the center.

KOMO is all-news and in 18th place.

I think that he meant KIRO.

Want an example of a great talkradio station? WABC when John Mainelli programmed it. He had liberals, conservatives and moderates on the schedule. The common thread of the hosts was an interesting personality, not political ideology. When he left the station they were #2 in the #1 market. The next PD decided to play all-conservative all-the-time and the station never saw that level of success again.

In 1994 and 1995, WABC was on average about 8th 12+ and out of the top 10 in 25-54. Earlier, in 1992 the 4-book average was a 2.8 in 12+, good for 11th, and way out of the money in 25-54