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Changes at KGO

Back in the late 60's KGO was on both AM and FM (103.7). I know that frequency has gone through a few formats and owners since but if KGO needed an FM outlet why didn't they stay with the old FM?

There was a belief that San Francisco was not an "FM town" due to terrain, the long north to south layout of the metro, and the existence of several very good AM signals. The belief was so strong that most big operators did not focus on FM and it took independent or small owners like Kaiser and Jim Gabbert to show the market things were changing. In the meantime, a number of FMs were sacrificed on the alter of the "AM Market" belief.

I believe KGO ended the simulcast with 103.7 on Jan 1, 1967 when the FCC decreed that fulltime AMs that owned an FM could not simulcast in all but the smallest markets (or for certain rare exceptions). For decades FM could not simulcast AM. And it was not until perhaps around the year 2000 that the core AM talk audience aged so much that FM was considered as a way of getting older Millennial audiences... when simulcasts were again allowed.

 
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KGO ended the simulcast with 103.7 on Jan 1, 1967 when the FCC decreed that fulltime AMs that owned an FM could not simulcast in all but the smallest markets (or for certain rare exceptions). For decades FM could not simulcast AM. And it was not until perhaps around the year 2000 that the core AM talk audience aged so much that FM was considered as a way of getting older Millennial audiences... when simulcasts were again allowed.


I was unaware that KGO-FM simulcast its AM counterpart. I began listening to the FM side when they were a rock n roll outlet with minimum commercials (probably some time in '67). I still have a recording from that era (and think I have already forwarded it to ReelRadio). I lived in Marin and we could get the S.F. AM's just fine in daytime but at night they were sketchy. After KEWB went talk/news in '66 that left only KYA during the day. For some reason most of the FM's got into Marin just fine overnight.
 


There was a belief that San Francisco was not an "FM town" due to terrain, the long north to south layout of the metro, and the existence of several very good AM signals. The belief was so strong that most big operators did not focus on FM and it took independent or small owners like Kaiser and Jim Gabbert to show the market things were changing. In the meantime, a number of FMs were sacrificed on the alter of the "AM Market" belief.

I believe KGO ended the simulcast with 103.7 on Jan 1, 1967 when the FCC decreed that fulltime AMs that owned an FM could not simulcast in all but the smallest markets (or for certain rare exceptions). For decades FM could not simulcast AM. And it was not until perhaps around the year 2000 that the core AM talk audience aged so much that FM was considered as a way of getting older Millennial audiences... when simulcasts were again allowed.


The biggest faux-pas was probably RKO General's decision to jettison the then low rated KFRC-FM 106.1 FM in the late 70s. It was a short time later that KMEL's "All Hit" format became one of the nails in 610/KFRC's coffin, along with Gabbert's K-101, KYUU and a couple of others.

By the way - I found that the supposed disadvantage of FM due the Bay Area terrain to be mostly a fallacy. A good FM tuner would generally get me any decent power station I wanted to listen to, with only occasional static - even in my car. Certainly, it was no worse than in the Los Angeles Area, which has much higher mountains than the Bay Area.
 
There was a second KGO AM-FM simulcast...this one more recent. On May 3, 1982, ABC pulled the plug on the alternative format at KSFX (the old KGO-FM at 103.7) and launched a simulcast of KGO in morning drive followed by the short-lived ABC TalkRadio network. Michael Jackson, Owen Spann, Dr. Toni Grant, Ira Fistell and Ray Briem were the network hosts.

It might have made sense to slowly widen the live and local window as far as the FCC would allow (12 hours per day) and then, down the road, simply move KGO's talk programming to the FM, but instead, ABC sold KGO-FM to Weaver, Davis Fowler on January 1, 1984 and it became KLOK-FM. The reason why (beyond poor ratings---a 1.0 average for 1982, a 1.2 for 1983) appears lost to the mists of time. They sold it for a mere $5.5 million.
 
The biggest faux-pas was probably RKO General's decision to jettison the then low rated KFRC-FM 106.1 FM in the late 70s. It was a short time later that KMEL's "All Hit" format became one of the nails in 610/KFRC's coffin, along with Gabbert's K-101, KYUU and a couple of others.

By the way - I found that the supposed disadvantage of FM due the Bay Area terrain to be mostly a fallacy. A good FM tuner would generally get me any decent power station I wanted to listen to, with only occasional static - even in my car. Certainly, it was no worse than in the Los Angeles Area, which has much higher mountains than the Bay Area.

Llew: It was seven years between RKO's sale and Century's move to CHR with 106.1. Could RKO have done something with that frequency? Maybe. But like KHJ and KRTH, the question would have been whether you'd kill the golden goose in transitioning the AM Top 40 to the FM. KHJ couldn't bring itself to make the move, but still ended up seeing its shares eaten by KRTH as the audience for contemporary music on FM grew.

Always worth remembering that while KFRC went to The Game Zone shortly after KMEL flipped from AOR to CHR, it wasn't cause-and-effect. KFRC had gone from a 7.7 in 1978 to a 3.1 before KMEL flipped in 1984, with most of the damage being done by stations that were ostensibly AC, not CHR----K-101 and KYUU.
 


I was unaware that KGO-FM simulcast its AM counterpart. I began listening to the FM side when they were a rock n roll outlet with minimum commercials (probably some time in '67). I still have a recording from that era (and think I have already forwarded it to ReelRadio). I lived in Marin and we could get the S.F. AM's just fine in daytime but at night they were sketchy. After KEWB went talk/news in '66 that left only KYA during the day. For some reason most of the FM's got into Marin just fine overnight.

'Tuna - The Bay Area Radio Museum has an air check of KGO-FM "104" from October 1967, when the format was automated pop. So I'm guessing that their rock format came at least a few months later, possibly in 1968. Their much more successful ABC sister station in LA was KABC-FM, which had a networked rock format with DJs centrally located in New York and LA, including 'Brother' John Rydgren, and Tony Pigg, better known much later as the announcer on Live with Regis, Kathy Lee, Kelly, etc. I'm guessing KGO-FM ran that same format. By 1970, KABC-FM switched call letters to KLOS, with local live DJs and the positioner "Rock N' Stereo." At least in LA, it was very successful.

http://bayarearadio.org/site/audio/kgo/1967-2/kgo-fm-104-san-francisco/
 
Michael - as usual, your history is better than my memory. I had somehow (temporarily) forgotten the "Camel 106" years in which KMEL was more a competitor for KSAN than KFRC. But I'd argue that any rock music on FM was competition for any Top 40 AM rock station. Even in my first years in college - '69 and '70, most 18 year old students had outgrown AM, and were already listening to the FM stations almost exclusively, be it KMET, KLOS, K-100, or KKDJ (I was in LA at that time). So as you point out, by the time of KFRC's "Game Zone" desperation ploy, the drip-drip-drip of competition from FM had taken its toll on KFRC...and KYA.
 


In fact, there are really no cases where even the best management was able to hold off the loss of 25-54's in that particular format. And that may mean that like other faded formats of the past, talk simply reached its expiration date.


And we know that 25-54's do listen to talk radio today. It's just on stations like KNBR instead of KGO.
 
And we know that 25-54's do listen to talk radio today. It's just on stations like KNBR instead of KGO.

OK, except that we categorize stations by format, and "sports" is not the same as "news / talk".

There is no similarity except both are radio formats.
 
And we know that 25-54's do listen to talk radio today. It's just on stations like KNBR instead of KGO.

Possibly because there are sports fans in every age demographic. So while Sports Talk is "talk," I'd argue that what we think of as "Talk Radio" (mostly news and politics) is not a format with a bright future, outside of the NPR model. It would be good to know if the 25-54 types spend time listening to sports talk, or tune in KNBR primarily for the play-by-play action.
 
NPR has its own issues with an aging audience. Lots of gray hair at NPR stations, and they keep killing the shows that might get a younger crowd and extending the ones that need to ride off into the sunset. Yes, they have put younger hosts on the flagship morning and afternoon shows, but too many stations anchor their weekends on Car Talk reruns and Prairie Home Companion. This American Life was new when I was in college, and that's been a long time.

Sports talk has become where 25-54 year old men go for talk shows, and is where the money is. No, they don't talk politics there. It's entertaining, and that's why it is working.

That same core is what used to power news/talk. In the 1990's, 25-54 males punched over to news/talk when they wanted to get away from music. Today they punch over to sports talk and think of the news/talk station as their dad's radio station.

The trick is to get that listener to sample both without killing the other. Good luck with that.
 
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A few statements I'd like to correct.

First, there was a KGO-FM in the 80s or 90s. It was not a simulcast, except maybe some newscasts. They tried to do younger Talk on the FM. I remember they had a nightly show aimed at the gay community, something controversial then, even in SF. But even though I thought KGO-FM gave youthful talk a good effort, the AM KGO was so good, I didn't listen much to KGO-FM when I was visiting SF. I believe it was gone in about a year.

Second, NPR may care about its aging audience but as long as they're able to pledge money, their age isn't that important. NPR isn't selling burgers or beer to an 18-34 demo. Yes, underwriters may want to see more youthful listeners. But they're only a small part of public radio funding. If Car Talk still gets donors, it will stay on. NPR doesn't have to appeal to media buyers concerned about aging demos.

Third, Talk as a format isn't going away. Humans need to hear conversation and get casual information (as opposed to All-News). They want to know what their neighbors are thinking. What it will sound like in a few years, I can't say. Not every guy and certainly few women will substitute Sports Talk for General Talk.

Certainly the current model of Conservative Talk is getting older. But when CBS tried putting Hot Talk (Free FM) on several of its FM stations, that didn't work either. There are only a few Hot Talk stations left.

By the way, what ever happened to what 710 WOR NYC did for many years... focus on women? Every empty nest woman I knew had WOR on all day. Now all three Talk formats, Conservative Political Talk, Hot Talk and Sports Talk are aimed squarely at men. You'd think that Talk would be a more female format, since people say women like to talk more than men do. Yes, the Top 40 and Hot AC morning shows do a lot of talking about gossip. But is that enough talk for women? No more shows about cooking or health or psychology or child rearing? I guess NPR covers some of those things sometimes. But not on commercial radio.

I don't know who the next Limbaugh or Stern is. But I think we'll always have Talk Radio for as long as we have radio.
 
Second, NPR may care about its aging audience but as long as they're able to pledge money, their age isn't that important. NPR isn't selling burgers or beer to an 18-34 demo. Yes, underwriters may want to see more youthful listeners. But they're only a small part of public radio funding.

Underwriters are a bigger chunk of funding than pledges, and underwriters are looking for 25-54 more than they are looking for 55+.

Third, Talk as a format isn't going away. Humans need to hear conversation and get casual information (as opposed to All-News). They want to know what their neighbors are thinking. What it will sound like in a few years, I can't say. Not every guy and certainly few women will substitute Sports Talk for General Talk.

Sure, N/T isn't dead, but it's dying. Sports has been growing for the past 15 years or more. That's not going to last forever, and the lower-tier sports talk stations don't bill near what a station like KNBR does, but for now that's where the money is. Warning to sports stations: if you ignore the signs of your format's growth starting to fade, what's happening to news/talk will happen to you. Evolve with the times or die.

Certainly the current model of Conservative Talk is getting older. But when CBS tried putting Hot Talk (Free FM) on several of its FM stations, that didn't work either. There are only a few Hot Talk stations left.

And most of those stations deserved their fate. But if you listen to what KFI sounds like today, you'll recognize parts of it from what KLSX used to do. If you want a blueprint for N/T, KFI is a fine place to start. But you have to look at it as a framework, not a cookie cutter to punch out and plug in. Because LA sounds out of place anywhere else.
 
WLW is all local to this day. It'll probably be one of the last talk signals to go away much like KFI, It is not something that could be duplicated anywhere else and be successful.
 
WLW is all local to this day. It'll probably be one of the last talk signals to go away much like KFI, It is not something that could be duplicated anywhere else and be successful.

There's the real "take-away" from this discussion. There is no such thing as a "standard model" for conventional talk radio. It has to be put together individually for each market, which is why (in general) stations programmed with mostly nationwide syndicated talk programming will be rated significantly lower than a local, live competitor.

Not that this stops the syndicators from increasing the glut of such programs ...
 
As I mentioned above, Randy Michaels tried to duplicate WLW on WGN, and failed miserably. Chicago couldn't stand Mike McConnell, and they'd have probably been picketing if Randy Michaels had succeeded in luring Willie there.



WLW is all local to this day. It'll probably be one of the last talk signals to go away much like KFI, It is not something that could be duplicated anywhere else and be successful.
 
It was nothing but a stunt!!! Yes they said he was going to KSFO replacing Mark Levin. But nothing was said as to whom was taking the 10-noon slot at KGO.
 
It was nothing but a stunt!!! Yes they said he was going to KSFO replacing Mark Levin. But nothing was said as to whom was taking the 10-noon slot at KGO.

Nothing was said about any of the dayparts. Mark Levin went public with his outrage (and his contract) when KGO made the Ronn-to-KSFO announcment on Thursday. And Rich Lieberman had a leaked lineup by the end of the day Thursday (with Ethan Bearman 10-1; Brian Copeland 1-4, Chip Franklin 4-7 and Drex 7-10) which made more sense than the three back-to-back two-hour airshifts created by Ronn staying put.

My opinion: "Stunt" is the least likely of three possible options. Second least likely is the official story from Cumulus SF that listener reaction forced KGO to reconsider. Most likely (and reported by several strong sources) is that Ronn's agent knew the language in Ronn's contract that prevents them from moving him and held KGO to it, forcing them to reverse direction over the weekend. Simultaneously, Mark Levin (and/or his agent) were discussing his contract specifying afternoon drive on KSFO with Cumulus corporate. Mike McVay had to issue a statement Saturday morning that Mark was staying put, which Mark posted on his Facebook page.

All this says "comedy of errors" (which in no way is meant to imply that the simultaneous firings of the news staff are in any way funny) much more strongly than it says "stunt".
 
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I was listening to Ronn yesterday. The first hour was a "welcome back" hour for Ronn. It's almost like he was gone for months. Actually,his last show was this past Thursday. As the above poster stated, two things were in place: The clause in his contract that stated he couldn't be moved and the clause in Mark Levin's contract stating HE couldn't be moved. Wonder why these two crucial items didn't surface until after the announcement? Of course there was a public outcry on Social media and on KGO's website and the station used that as a reason Ronn was staying put. You didn't see that coming? Great PR and a nice positive spin stating the listeners are the reason Ronn is staying. Positive spin for KGO. You have to wonder if this was all staged?

The dismissal of the news staff was the only element that didn't involve speculation. With their poor ratings against KCBS and KQED with a news focus,Cumulus decided it wasn't worth it and shifted the station to all talk, saving a lot of money for Cumulus.

For a station that always prided itself on being local for all these years, the addition pf Armstrong and Getty to AM drive was interesting. Their syndication used to be just in California,but now it's on many Western stations. and is the biggest departure from what KGO was. Of course with three two hour shifts back to back, that's one more salary.

With two weekend hosts now getting weekday shifts, I would imagine that opens up slots for even more paid programming on the weekend.
 
A few statements I'd like to correct.

First, there was a KGO-FM in the 80s or 90s. It was not a simulcast, except maybe some newscasts. They tried to do younger Talk on the FM. I remember they had a nightly show aimed at the gay community, something controversial then, even in SF. But even though I thought KGO-FM gave youthful talk a good effort, the AM KGO was so good, I didn't listen much to KGO-FM when I was visiting SF. I believe it was gone in about a year.

Second, NPR may care about its aging audience but as long as they're able to pledge money, their age isn't that important. NPR isn't selling burgers or beer to an 18-34 demo. Yes, underwriters may want to see more youthful listeners. But they're only a small part of public radio funding. If Car Talk still gets donors, it will stay on. NPR doesn't have to appeal to media buyers concerned about aging demos.

Third, Talk as a format isn't going away. Humans need to hear conversation and get casual information (as opposed to All-News). They want to know what their neighbors are thinking. What it will sound like in a few years, I can't say. Not every guy and certainly few women will substitute Sports Talk for General Talk.

Certainly the current model of Conservative Talk is getting older. But when CBS tried putting Hot Talk (Free FM) on several of its FM stations, that didn't work either. There are only a few Hot Talk stations left.

The Talk version of KGO-FM was in the early 80s. According to info on the internet, KLOK-FM signed on to 103.7 in 1984, so the talk version lasted only a couple of years. You are right that it was NOT a simulcast. Even the short news breaks were separate from the AM, though they may have used news readers from the AM side - I don't recall. There was very little actual news content though - just brief headlines and weather.

The programming came from ABC's fledgling talk network. I believe it provided the programming for WABC-AM in NYC, which had finally dropped it's long-time Top 40 format. No doubt, it was syndicated to other ABC stations on both AM and FM, and possibly to other stations in markets where there was no interest from ABC affiliates.

The morning host was Owen Spann of KGO-AM, who moved to New York. I believe this was Ronn Owen's opportunity to move to mornings on KGO-AM to replace Spann. Prior to that, Ronn had been doing evenings. Mid-days on KGO-FM was psychologist Dr. Toni Grant, who was a kindler-gentler version of the later Dr. Laura Schelessinger, though not by much. I don't remember afternoons, but evenings were Ira Fistell, a longtime talk radio veteran.

It was a good effort, I thought - but never really caught on. I listened quite a bit, but ultimately preferred the local hosts on KGO-AM, and I think that was what most listeners felt. They later tried some local programming, including Don Chamberlain's Sex Talk. It was a apt title because the show was very explicit in its content. I remember being amazed at the time that they could get away with it without intervention from the FCC. I guess it was because the content had socially redeeming value and was presumably helping people. Chamberlain had done a more censored version of his show a few years earlier on KNEW called California Girls, but it had been cancelled when KNEW flipped from Oldies to Country music.

About a year in, they stopped calling the station KGO-FM and rebranded as "Talk Radio FM 104," almost as if they were afraid the failure would sully the legend that was KGO-AM. It limped along for a few more months until the frequency was sold.
 
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