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What is the new name for the 1st Phone?

N

Night Hawk

I once had a 3rd Pone once upon a time. Now retired, I'm curious if there is such a thing for 1st and 2nd Phone?
What is now called and does it require knowledge of sending and receiving Morse Code at a certain rate, etc.?
Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Night Hawk said:
I once had a 3rd Pone once upon a time. Now retired, I'm curious if there is such a thing for 1st and 2nd Phone?
What is now called and does it require knowledge of sending and receiving Morse Code at a certain rate, etc.?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

The 3rd Phone and 1st and 2nd class licenses did not require code. There is no licensing required now. The 1st and 2nd were combined into a General Class license in about 1982. IIRC, they were still required to be a chief operator of a station for some years until I believe 1985.

These are not amateur or "ham" licenses.

I got my First in 1968, and no code was required. It did allow me to be chief operator and to do maintenance or transmitters and directional systems. The 3rd allowed you to do basic studio and logging requirements (except for directional stations until sometime in the mid 70's when stable DAs could be logged or remote controlled by a 3rd).

The General Class is not a requirement for AM and FM.
 
There was the First Class Radio Telephone License which did not require knowledge of code. The First Class Radio Telegraph, I believe it was called, did require knowledge of code.

I got my 1st Phone in 1968.

Jim Shannon
 
I got my 3rd phone in 1964, 2nd phone in 1965, first phone 1966, 2nd telegraph 1975 with Radar endorsement, and extra class ham license which required 20 wpm code test too, now 1st & 2nd phone have been water down into the General class license, not near as hard a test as the 2nd and 1st phone, and the 2nd telegraph was the hardest of them all, theory and passing a Morse code sending and receiving test at 20 wpm 16 wpm in groups, now all the licenses are life time and do not haft to be renewed, The broadcast industry lobbied to do away with a licensed engineer on duty to save money, now no body at the FCC seems to cares for the most part what happens at a radio station ?, unless the radio station interferes with public safety communications." The good ole days "
 
Night Hawk said:
I once had a 3rd Pone once upon a time. Now retired, I'm curious if there is such a thing for 1st and 2nd Phone?
What is now called and does it require knowledge of sending and receiving Morse Code at a certain rate, etc.?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

I just thought of something else: At some point, the Third Phone was replaced with a Restricted Permit(I believe that was the name.)that didn't require any test. You just had to apply.
 
semoochie said:
I just thought of something else: At some point, the Third Phone was replaced with a Restricted Permit(I believe that was the name.)that didn't require any test. You just had to apply.
Click to expand...

The Commission has restructured commercial licensing (again). They do this every so often, for various reasons. The official reason is to stay current with modern industry needs and technology. The unofficial reason is job protection.

Several years ago, the First and Second-Class Radiotelephone tickets were combined and replaced by the General Radiotelephone Operators License (GROL), which requires the memorizing of a public question pool to pass. The First and Second-Class Radiotelegraph Licenses were also most recently combined as well. The Third Class Radiotelegraph Permit was replaced by the Marine Ooerators License, with credit retained for the telegraphy element previously passed.

None of these licenses are currently required for employment as a broadcast engineer. They were at one point in the past, which is the primary reason Cleveland Institute of Electronics, Devry, and Elkins flourished.
 
Another quirk in the radiotelephone license world is the requirement to hold a Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit for international flight operations.

On the broadcast side, when the four steps of radiotelephone licenses and permits were in place, a third phone could do everything the RP holder could do, the second phone holder could do everything a third phone holder could do and a first phone holder could do everything a second hone holder could do.

Apparently the FCC has never adopted that approach for aviation purposes and even the General Radiotelephone Operator License doesn't seem to be usable for these flight operations.


At least one person on each aircraft flying or communicating internationally must have a Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit. This requirement is in addition to the requirement to have an aircraft radio station license for the aircraft. No Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit is required to operate VHF radio equipment on board an aircraft when that aircraft is flown domestically. You may obtain a Restricted Permit using FCC Form 605. No test is required to obtain this permit. The FCC will mail the permit to you and it will be valid for your lifetime. The fee for a Restricted Permit is in addition to any fee paid for an aircraft license.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations&id=aircraft_stations
 
RadioFan2J3 said:
You may obtain a Restricted Permit using FCC Form 605. No test is required to obtain this permit. The FCC will mail the permit to you and it will be valid for your lifetime. The fee for a Restricted Permit is in addition to any fee paid for an aircraft license.
Click to expand...

Forgot all about that one. The Civil Air Patrol requires, or required, Cadet and Senior members who desired to operate radio equipment on CAP frequencies to have a valid Restricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit. This was in addition to passing their own internal radio operator certification.

My belief in this, as well as other services that require something that proves absolutely no competence in radio operations or theory is about control. If they require you have this card, then they have something that can be suspended or revoked. Compare this to a pirate or unlicensed operator who has no license whatsoever. The Commission can't necessarily take punitive action against you if you have nothing to take punitive action against.

Food for thought.
 
JoeFM said:
Don't forget Control Data Institute, which is where I got my training. Which one of these engineering schools did you graduate?
Click to expand...

When I was a kid, the one I always heard about was Columbia School of Broadcasting. I went to Ron Bailie for my First and Second Class Licenses. The idea was to memorize all the questions and answers that would be given in the FCC tests. There were 571 questions for the Second Phone and 351 for the First. I have no doubt that I got 100% on both tests.
 
JoeFM said:
Don't forget Control Data Institute, which is where I got my training. Which one of these engineering schools did you graduate?
Click to expand...

There were two different routes to follow to get a First.

One was to go to REI or one of the the other "quickie tickie" factories where in about a month you could learn a little of electronics and a lot of memorized questions and go and take the test. This was what many jocks who wanted to work at stations that required a First Phone did.

The other option was either home study (NRI, Capitol, CREI, etc.) or an engineering school. The correspondence courses prepared you to take the test, but also taught basic engineering. In an engineering school, you learned electronics, and bought a book for the rules part of the three sections of the test.

In my case, I got a third in '59 and then the 2nd and 1st in 1969 after being my own chief engineer and building my own gear for a number of years; I learned the basics from several NRI and a CREI courses. The rest was learned to keep from electrocuting myself.
 
I went to the Don Martin School of Television & Radio Arts and Sciences in Hollywood, CA. 1st Phone course was 4 months long. They also had television and radio production classes.

Jim Shannon
 
High voltage, those were the days with bang ? sticks in the high voltage areas of the transmitters to make sure the power was off and the Caps discharged, a charged filter cap could put your lights out no problem with the power disconnected.
 
There was a aircraft endorsement, that You could add to the 1st or 2nd ? phone, like the ship radar, but the Aircraft endorsement was a very difficult test dealing mostly with antique equipment of the 30s and 40s and 50s.seems like code was also a requirement since many international flights used Morse code, and during WWII almost all military flights had a CW operator on Board and the pilot was supposed to know code but some had the requirement waved since they needed pilots worse than radio operators who were also on the crew.
 
I still have my lifetime General license in a frame. It was issued in 1983. I had taken electronics in HS, which helped when I got to Don Martin. Later I took a course in college, Fullerton Jr. College, to prepare for taking the 1st Phone test. Most of the students and the instructor were ex-military. Learned a lot or electronics, but they knew nothing of FCC rules and regs. I ended up teaching that part of the class including the different treaties a 1st Class operator was supposed to follow, Canada, Mexico and Cuba. Only Cuba didn't honor the treaty, but we still did.

Jim Shannon
 
Shannon said:
I went to the Don Martin School of Television & Radio Arts and Sciences in Hollywood, CA. 1st Phone course was 4 months long. They also had television and radio production classes.

Jim Shannon
Click to expand...

The announcing / production course for radio was about a year long. I know several people who took it in the 70's.

The Don Martin School was one of the better places to learn radio other than an internship. They employed a lot of active LA announcers and production pros to either teach or give guest lectures and the courses were thorough.

Here is a piece of the Don Martin School announcing course study material.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Bookshelf/Business/Don-Martin-School-Course-1974.pdf
 
You are right about the quality of the instructors. They were the best. My 1st Phone instructor was Ivan Perry. He's someone you never forget.

While attending Don Martin, I worked over nights at KTBT-FM in Garden Grove. Got off at 6am, then drove to Hollywood to classes. Often I sat in on the production courses.

Wish I still had that kind of energy!

Jim Shannon
 
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