Which Old School 50Kw clear blowtorch do you think has the best overall signal?

[GRS86]

Which one of the 50kw clears do you think has the best combination of a daytime ground wave signal, and a great nighttime sky wave signal? IMHO, I have to say it's WLW

Flip side of the coin. Which 50kw clear do you think has the worst combination of daytime ground wave, and a so so nighttime signal?

 

[KeithE4]

Which one of the 50kw clears do you think has the best combination of a daytime ground wave signal, and a great nighttime sky wave signal? IMHO, I have to say it's WLW

By definition, it has to be KFI 640 Los Angeles, the lowest-on-the-dial 50 kW clear. But because much of its signal goes over the Pacific Ocean, I have to give it to WSCR 670 Chicago by an edge over WLW, just because it's lower on the dial.

Flip side of the coin. Which 50kw clear do you think has the worst combination of daytime ground wave, and a so so nighttime signal?

Again by definition, it would have to be the station highest on the dial with 50 kW and a non-directional antenna. I think that station is WPHT 1210 Philadelphia.

 

[radioman148]

If you're talking about today I would have to say WLW because WSCR's night signal gets blown away by Cuban intererference. However, many years ago Chicago's 670, which was then WMAQ would've been my choice.

 

[charlestondxman]

WHO is an underrated strong clear. In the middle of the country, non directional, 50kw, and can be heard in South Carolina nearly every night. Also can be heard in New Jersey, through most of the Midwest and nearly out to the west coast.

I can't even hear WSCR but a few times a year in Charleston because of Cuba and Miami signals on 670.

 

[KeithE4]

WHO is an underrated strong clear. In the middle of the country, non directional, 50kw, and can be heard in South Carolina nearly every night. Also can be heard in New Jersey, through most of the Midwest and nearly out to the west coast.

That good Iowa dirt helps WHO, WOI, KXEL, and the other stations there that are either low on the dial or run 50 kW. Normally, a station on 1040 would have roughly half the range of one on 640, given the same ground system.

 

[davideduardo]

That good Iowa dirt helps WHO, WOI, KXEL, and the other stations there that are either low on the dial or run 50 kW. Normally, a station on 1040 would have roughly half the range of one on 640, given the same ground system.

But you are neglecting the differences in ground conductivity. Look at the conductivity in the areas where 640, 650 and 660 are located. Even the immediate Chicago area is in a mixed area with zones of 15, 8 and even 2. 700 is in an 8 zone,

The best performance is likely 820 in Dallas. In an area of 30, the lowest it gets anywhere nearby is 15.

 

[joebtsflk1]

WHO would definitely be an honorable mention in the best overall day/night signal among 50 kW clears. And while WOI on 640 with only 5kW has slightly better day coverage than WHO, having a 50 kW signal allows WHO to have a significantly larger 2.5 mV/m than WOI.

Add KFAB 1110 Omaha to honorable mention. Ground conductivity in western Iowa and Nebraska is even better than central Iowa. And 50 kW DA nights lights up the western US quite well.

KXEL has a great night-time signal in the northern US, but 50000 watts on 1540 daytime only gets them about 150 miles out, and tthat's a stretch.

 

[KeithE4]

But you are neglecting the differences in ground conductivity. Look at the conductivity in the areas where 640, 650 and 660 are located. Even the immediate Chicago area is in a mixed area with zones of 15, 8 and even 2. 700 is in an 8 zone,

The best performance is likely 820 in Dallas. In an area of 30, the lowest it gets anywhere nearby is 15.

That was what I was saying about the Iowa soil. We're not disagreeing in the basics here. If WHO was 50 kW ND on 640 instead of WOI's 5 kW ND days (which covers the entire state of Iowa and then some) and 1 kW directional at night , it would probably cover the entire country. You have a point about WBAP, though.

 

[davideduardo]

That was what I was saying about the Iowa soil. We're not disagreeing in the basics here. If WHO was 50 kW ND on 640 instead of WOI's 5 kW ND days (which covers the entire state of Iowa and then some) and 1 kW directional at night , it would probably cover the entire country. You have a point about WBAP, though.

Remember that WLW at 500 kw did not come close to covering the whole country (even at night). The usable signal covered parts of 5 or 6 states even in the station's own rather exaggerated coverage maps.

WHO on 640 would cover much more of Iowa and bits of the surrounding 6 states, but it would not even have a good signal in most of those nearby states except for the areas around the Iowa border.

 

[joebtsflk1]

If we're including Canadian clears, then it's no question: CBK 540 Watrous (Regina) SK. Massive ground conductivity, lowest spot on the MW band (except that single newbie on 530, CIAO Brampton ON) You could drive from Edmonton AB to Winnipeg and not run out of the daytime signal. For comparison, that's the same as driving from Denver to Chicago.

And 540 CBK had a stomping signal in Iowa in the wintertime before we started giving night time auths to KWMT et al

 

[KeithE4]

Remember that WLW at 500 kw did not come close to covering the whole country (even at night). The usable signal covered parts of 5 or 6 states even in the station's own rather exaggerated coverage maps.

Remember? In the 1930s, my parents were kids and I was two decades from being born. I certainly do not remember.

From what I've read about it, it caused more problems in the Cincinnati area, as well as adjacent areas of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky, than it was worth. Unless one had a refrigerator or tooth fillings with a highly selective AM tuner built in.

WHO on 640 would cover much more of Iowa and bits of the surrounding 6 states, but it would not even have a good signal in most of those nearby states except for the areas around the Iowa border.

Checking the coverage maps on RadioLocator (yeah, they're as perfect as Wikipedia, but it's a start), WOI and WHO have roughly the same daytime coverage area.

 

[davideduardo]

Remember? In the 1930s, my parents were kids and I was two decades from being born. I certainly do not remember.

But you can read about it. It is well documented not just in "Broadcasting" but in the technical magazines of the time.

From what I've read about it, it caused more problems in the Cincinnati area, as well as adjacent areas of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky, than it was worth. Unless one had a refrigerator or tooth fillings with a highly selective AM tuner built in.

Not really. In the immediate area of Mason, barbed wire fences sometimes detected and some wiring would resonate, but otherwise the only evidence of WLW was that big Blaw-Knox tower in the air. I've been around a couple of higher power stations, including Trans World Radio in Bonaire, and the "annoyance zone" is only in a tiny area a mile or two around the site. In the case of WLW, that meant farmland in the 30's.

In fact, the major lobes of many 50 kw highly directional AMs are the non-directional equivalent of 500 kw or more and they cause very little problem even when in urban areas (KTNQ-1020 and KBLA-1580 are really good examples of this).

Checking the coverage maps on RadioLocator (yeah, they're as perfect as Wikipedia, but it's a start), WOI and WHO have roughly the same daytime coverage area.

Every doubling of coverage requires a quadrupling of power. So 50 kw on 640 would extend the current WOI contour by about 160%, which would put the 5 mV/m just outside Iowa to the north and south, and just around, but inside, the border to the east and west.

 

[Ai4i]

Ronald Raegan's training station in Des Moines is an interesting case.
I don't know how many db of gain their Franklin has over a quarter wave or what their equivalent ERP is as compared to 50KW into a quarterwave,
but either their center of radiation is a few hundred feet high, or they have two points of radiation several hundred feet apart.
Interestingly, WHO had a Blau-Knox that was partly disassembled and is currently being used as a support structure, Here.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

But you are neglecting the differences in ground conductivity. Look at the conductivity in the areas where 640, 650 and 660 are located. Even the immediate Chicago area is in a mixed area with zones of 15, 8 and even 2. 700 is in an 8 zone,

The best performance is likely 820 in Dallas. In an area of 30, the lowest it gets anywhere nearby is 15.

It is a monster - and its central location in the United States, although it is far South, allows it to cover a lot of states at night. I have it playing in my office all day at work - along I-10 in Houston! I remember being in my parent's car when I was a lot younger, it would finally fade out to the West when you went off the caprock outside of Roswell. That was on an old Delco, with a 60 inch whip antenna. I got similar ranges to the North and the East.

 

[GRS86]

If you're talking about today I would have to say WLW because WSCR's night signal gets blown away by Cuban intererference. However, many years ago Chicago's 670, which was then WMAQ would've been my choice.

I have to agree with you. As Charlestondxman stated, WSCR gets blow away Cuba too often. I find the same to be the case here in the Atlanta area. In fact, I'd say that WGN is probably the most dependable Chicago clear here.

I don't know if it's just my experience, but it seems as if WLW is least affected by interference from Cuba and or other Latin American signals of any of the big clears. Being here in the South, it's not uncommon for everyone to get blow away at some point, but WLW is the only clear that's consistently in night in, night out here in Atlanta. Even WSM and WLAC aren't as consistent at a closer distance.

Interesting observation: In traveling on this past Sunday. WSB was slightly more audible than WLW just south of the TN/KY border along I-75, despite being closer to WLW by a few miles. Both were pretty much on their last leg. WSM was noisier at that same location than I thought it would be. Also observed that WLW had a decidedly better daytime signal on the Southside of Chicago, than it did at the TN/KY border, despite being roughly 90-100 further from Cincinnati. Shows you what bad ground conductivity can do even to a good signal.

 

[schmave]

Personal choice for best 50K daytime signal is WBAP. I haven't been to all areas of the country, but the expanse of that signal on that great ground conductivity clinches it for me. They have as good a nighttime signal for a 50K as I've ever heard. Only blowtorch I have heard both in Ohio and Las Vegas, and quite well in each (unfortunately for me, not near my home since Columbus also has a station on AM 820).
WSCR is solid, but it'd be better without IBOC. Definitely doesn't sound as good in western Ohio as it used to.
WLW is a semi-local for me, but I remember hearing it on a nightly basis when I lived in Houston, sometimes quite well given the distance and a co-channel within about 40 miles.
Worst? Probably WSB, although KDKA has to be right in the conversation. I haven't been to Atlanta in many years, but I am close enough to Pittsburgh to know just how horrid a signal that station puts out even with the bad conductivity. Even the skywave is terrible here in central Ohio 90 percent of the time.

 

[GRS86]

Personal choice for best 50K daytime signal is WBAP. I haven't been to all areas of the country, but the expanse of that signal on that great ground conductivity clinches it for me. They have as good a nighttime signal for a 50K as I've ever heard. Only blowtorch I have heard both in Ohio and Las Vegas, and quite well in each (unfortunately for me, not near my home since Columbus also has a station on AM 820).
WSCR is solid, but it'd be better without IBOC. Definitely doesn't sound as good in western Ohio as it used to.
WLW is a semi-local for me, but I remember hearing it on a nightly basis when I lived in Houston, sometimes quite well given the distance and a co-channel within about 40 miles.
Worst? Probably WSB, although KDKA has to be right in the conversation. I haven't been to Atlanta in many years, but I am close enough to Pittsburgh to know just how horrid a signal that station puts out even with the bad conductivity. Even the skywave is terrible here in central Ohio 90 percent of the time.

The last time I was in Columbus for a couple of days, KDKA was totally non-existent on my radio during the day, at a distance of 185 miles. Of course, as you mentioned, WLW was almost like a local. WJR's daytime signal was decent. Being that Detroit is slightly further from Columbus than Pittsburgh made KDKA's total absence baffling to me.

Considering the poor, to below average ground conductivity of much of the SE, WSB's daytime signal still covers roughly a 200, up to 250 mile radius of Atlanta. During the day, it's listenable in much of GA, save the coast. It's also listenable in Birmingham, Montgomery, Chattanooga, Augusta, and Greenville-Spartanburg. It's last leg signal goes as far as Charlotte, Nashville, north of Knoxville at the TN/KY border, and the GA/FL border. The downside to the poor ground conductivity is that WSB's cancellation zone generally starts about 50-60 miles from Atlanta, and goes to about 175 miles out. I've found WSB's skywave signal to be as good as anyone elses once you get out of the cancellation zone, especially going northward.

 

[charlestondxman]

WBAP also comes in well in South Carolina at night, even though it is nearly 1,000 miles. When I was in Manasquan, NJ (45 miles S of NYC) a couple weeks ago, I heard them. I heard a clear on every frequency except for 870. Just couldn't null out WCBS's IBOC to get WWL.

The best NY clear in my area is WCBS. Not as much interference as WFAN because of the higher frequency. WOR is like a 50-foot putt. Almost unlistenable here.

KOA on 850 is one of the best once you get away from the east coast states. You can hear it starting in the upstate of SC, then anywhere west it comes in. Once you get west of Nashville, it comes in strong.

WSB comes in during the daytime in Charleston during the winter at about 260-265 miles out. That is the farthest over land signal I can hear regularly. The signals from FL I get are mostly over water.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The last time I was in Columbus for a couple of days, KDKA was totally non-existent on my radio during the day, at a distance of 185 miles. Of course, as you mentioned, WLW was almost like a local. WJR's daytime signal was decent. Being that Detroit is slightly further from Columbus than Pittsburgh made KDKA's total absence baffling to me.

Considering the poor, to below average ground conductivity of much of the SE, WSB's daytime signal still covers roughly a 200, up to 250 mile radius of Atlanta. During the day, it's listenable in much of GA, save the coast. It's also listenable in Birmingham, Montgomery, Chattanooga, Augusta, and Greenville-Spartanburg. It's last leg signal goes as far as Charlotte, Nashville, north of Knoxville at the TN/KY border, and the GA/FL border. The downside to the poor ground conductivity is that WSB's cancellation zone generally starts about 50-60 miles from Atlanta, and goes to about 175 miles out. I've found WSB's skywave signal to be as good as anyone elses once you get out of the cancellation zone, especially going northward.

When I lived in Port Orange, FL, WSB was very weak, but receivable during the day - on an unmodified GE SR2. I suspect that the ground conductivity at the receivers in and around Atlanta is the coverage problem, not WSB itself.

WSB was also one of the deep DX stations I got daytime in Lubbock, TX, with a large 5 foot loop (along with the Chicago clears, WCCO, and WSM). Although it took a long time to verify WSB, and there was some interference from KSEO. There are enough new 700's in Texas to wreck WLW reception, but I do have a daytime reception report from my grandfather in a letter he wrote in the 30's during WLW's 500 kW days. Reception was with a five stage tuned RF radio, that had a 28 by 20 inch loop antenna. Ground conductivity in Lubbock is very high, which would account for these extreme DX distances.

Before the new 700 came on the air in Dallas, WLW occasionally came in during the day in the winter. I suspect there were some residual atmospherics involved. I also got KOA in Dallas during the day on a fairly regular basis in the winter, but 850 was eventually covered in Dallas.

One of the things on my bucket list is to go up stone mountain in Atlanta with a good radio and a large loop, and see what sort of reception I get with virtually ZERO ground conductivity. I moved to Texas, so it may be an unrealized item on the list, but I have a collapsible 5 foot loop I can deploy quickly, that isn't insanely heavy, so next time I go that way I might do it. This 61 year old is still able to climb a bit!

 

[cyberdad]

That good Iowa dirt helps WHO, WOI, KXEL, and the other stations there that are either low on the dial or run 50 kW. Normally, a station on 1040 would have roughly half the range of one on 640, given the same ground system.

I'd include KWMT and WMT on the "good Iowa dirt" list and maybe KSPZ (ex-KIOA)....at least to the west. I can hear KWMT at my location northwest of Chicago daytime under WAUK on my SR2 as well as on a really good car radio. Regarding WMT, it has a day signal that covers just about the entire state of Iowa....although it gets blown out in the far west by the Omaha 590. It's also the only day signal audible for the entire length of I-94 from Chicago to Minneapolis (a distance of over 350 miles).

As for best signal for the old school 50kw ND "clears", I'd go with CBK. I've personally heard them daytime from far western Ontario (barely) to far eastern British Columbia (barely). At night, CBK is audible from the upper Midwest all the way to the Pacific Coast.