Which Old School 50Kw clear blowtorch do you think has the best overall signal?

[GRS86]

When I lived in Port Orange, FL, WSB was very weak, but receivable during the day - on an unmodified GE SR2. I suspect that the ground conductivity at the receivers in and around Atlanta is the coverage problem, not WSB itself.

WSB was also one of the deep DX stations I got daytime in Lubbock, TX, with a large 5 foot loop (along with the Chicago clears, WCCO, and WSM). Although it took a long time to verify WSB, and there was some interference from KSEO. There are enough new 700's in Texas to wreck WLW reception, but I do have a daytime reception report from my grandfather in a letter he wrote in the 30's during WLW's 500 kW days. Reception was with a five stage tuned RF radio, that had a 28 by 20 inch loop antenna. Ground conductivity in Lubbock is very high, which would account for these extreme DX distances.

Before the new 700 came on the air in Dallas, WLW occasionally came in during the day in the winter. I suspect there were some residual atmospherics involved. I also got KOA in Dallas during the day on a fairly regular basis in the winter, but 850 was eventually covered in Dallas.

One of the things on my bucket list is to go up stone mountain in Atlanta with a good radio and a large loop, and see what sort of reception I get with virtually ZERO ground conductivity. I moved to Texas, so it may be an unrealized item on the list, but I have a collapsible 5 foot loop I can deploy quickly, that isn't insanely heavy, so next time I go that way I might do it. This 61 year old is still able to climb a bit!

With our poor ground conductivity, many of the local 50 kw AM's are noisy around power lines, and under bridges from a relatively close distance. Believe it or not, there are numerous 50 kw, non- directional AM's in the Atlanta market. WSB is obviously the only one that's 50 kw 24/7. The rest of them tend to power down to between 5,000-10,000 kw after dark, and most of them are directional after dark.

Don't think that Stone Mountain would be too great for AM DXing, but, it's super for FM DXing. It would definitely be worth the trip for that. Back in the analog TV days, it was also great for TV DXing. Haven't tried it in the digital era, but don't think it would be the same anymore.

 

[radioman148]

KWMT and WOI used to be heard at my location in the near north Chicago burbs in the daytime, but now Milwaukee & Grand Rapids cover those stations at my location.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

With our poor ground conductivity, many of the local 50 kw AM's are noisy around power lines, and under bridges from a relatively close distance. Believe it or not, there are numerous 50 kw, non- directional AM's in the Atlanta market. WSB is obviously the only one that's 50 kw 24/7. The rest of them tend to power down to between 5,000-10,000 kw after dark, and most of them are directional after dark.

Don't think that Stone Mountain would be too great for AM DXing, but, it's super for FM DXing. It would definitely be worth the trip for that. Back in the analog TV days, it was also great for TV DXing. Haven't tried it in the digital era, but don't think it would be the same anymore.

Where I lived in Norcross, WCNN was so strong it caused overload in my radios. Never heard it from Florida. My point about Stone Mountain would be to do a direct contrast to the incredible ground conductivity in Lubbock. If I got up there with the same exact loop and radio I used in Lubbock, and managed to snag NYC or Chicago stations in the daytime, it would completely negate the ground conductivity theory. But if I couldn't get things like WSM, WBT, WOKV (Jacksonville FL), then that would confirm that low ground conductivity = poor reception. I tend towards the latter viewpoint. But I need to run the test. I have the loop and radio I used in Lubbock, so the only variable would be the ground conductivity.

So - my question to you - with your best radio, do YOU get WOKV, WSM, WBT and other stations in the 200 to 300 mile range in the daytime?

 

[joebtsflk1]

I'd include KWMT and WMT on the "good Iowa dirt" list and maybe KSPZ (ex-KIOA)....at least to the west. I can hear KWMT at my location northwest of Chicago daytime under WAUK on my SR2 as well as on a really good car radio. Regarding WMT, it has a day signal that covers just about the entire state of Iowa....although it gets blown out in the far west by the Omaha 590. It's also the only day signal audible for the entire length of I-94 from Chicago to Minneapolis (a distance of over 350 miles).

As for best signal for the old school 50kw ND "clears", I'd go with CBK. I've personally heard them daytime from far western Ontario (barely) to far eastern British Columbia (barely). At night, CBK is audible from the upper Midwest all the way to the Pacific Coast.

Indeed, CBK also gets my vote without question. Its day signal is beyond scary huge. And their night time signal in Iowa, at least during the winter, was one of the best in the 70s.

KFYR 550 Bismarck ND is only 5 kW, but their overall daytime signal IIRC is the best in the States. As far as the 50 kW clears...daytime a toss-up between 820 WBAP and 670 WSCR. 820 probably wins at night between those two.

What was left of the old WHO Blaw-Knox was dismantled several years ago. I can't find any ASR details for it anymore at its former site on 2nd Ave. north of Des Moines.
More here: http://www.desmoinesbroadcasting.com/who/westinghousestats.html

 

[GRS86]

Where I lived in Norcross, WCNN was so strong it caused overload in my radios. Never heard it from Florida. My point about Stone Mountain would be to do a direct contrast to the incredible ground conductivity in Lubbock. If I got up there with the same exact loop and radio I used in Lubbock, and managed to snag NYC or Chicago stations in the daytime, it would completely negate the ground conductivity theory. But if I couldn't get things like WSM, WBT, WOKV (Jacksonville FL), then that would confirm that low ground conductivity = poor reception. I tend towards the latter viewpoint. But I need to run the test. I have the loop and radio I used in Lubbock, so the only variable would be the ground conductivity.

So - my question to you - with your best radio, do YOU get WOKV, WSM, WBT and other stations in the 200 to 300 mile range in the daytime?

Have received WOKV as far as about 175 miles over land. Have never carried WSM or WBT over 200 miles in the daytime hours.

 

[Ai4i]

Have received WOKV as far as about 175 miles over land. Have never carried WSM or WBT over 200 miles in the daytime hours.

"The Ape" (now WOKV) used the slogan, "500 miles of music", meaning 300 miles up the coast plus 200 miles down into Florida.

 

[davideduardo]

Which one of the 50kw clears do you think has the best combination of a daytime ground wave signal, and a great nighttime sky wave signal? IMHO, I have to say it's WLW

Flip side of the coin. Which 50kw clear do you think has the worst combination of daytime ground wave, and a so so nighttime signal?

This is an interesting subject, and the posts are really fun to read, and it made me think back at why those 1-A clears were created to begin with.

Here's what I can add to the discussion, in a set of random thoughts (or brain farts as the case may be):

Back in the late 20's when the reserved channels were established most radio listening was done in the home and at night. That was when the emerging radio networks had their big shows and when the independent stations put the best entertainment on. Some stations did not even operate all of the daylight hours at the time.

The 50 kw stations were mainly intended to carry programming into rural America by skywave during the evening hours.

The high power was not as necessary in the daytime to cover the local market as it is today where power has to overcome man-made interference; in the 20's DXers on the East Coast of the US were hearing 200 watt AM stations from Australia because the band was emptier and there was little man made noise.

In the 1920's, American population was 50% rural. Today, it is 80% urban. Today, every crossroads has a radio station. In 1928 after hobbyists were removed from the band, there were about 700 radio station.

Daytime listening in all the dayparts is considerably higher than evening listening. AM listening is well below 20% of all listening, and at night AM has an even lower percentage of radio listeners.

AM stations do not show up in ratings at night in far-away markets. Even back in the 60's they did; stations like WABC showed in Pittsburgh, for example. When AMs do show up outside their home market, it is in adjacent groundwave coverage markets. Those same adjacent markets are often not good at night due to skywave / groundwave cancellation.

Back in the 30's and 40's stations sold all the coverage they had. Broadcasting Magazine is full of ads stressing multi-state mail pull and regional coverage. Because there were fewer local stations, buyers looked at this data. Today, buyers look at the local ratings and seldom, if ever, use an out-of-market station to cover a local market buy.

Most of today's growth metros did not get 1-A stations back in 1928 because the markets were too small. Looking at the top 25 markets of today, here are ones without a 1-A or 1-B: Houston, Miami, Phoenix, San Diego, Tampa. All were much smaller in rank then. Instead, those markets seem to have uniformly gotten stations that, today, can't even cover all the market with a decent groundwave signal.

 

[davideduardo]

"The Ape" (now WOKV) used the slogan, "500 miles of music", meaning 300 miles up the coast plus 200 miles down into Florida.

At night, it is "1000 miles of music" (from Jax to Hamilton, Bermuda).

 

[charlestondxman]

I have heard WOKV as far as I-95 on I-26 (about 232 miles), while the farthest S I've gotten WOKV in FL is Winter Haven (less than 150 miles from the transmitter). You can hear it anywhere south of Lake Marion on I-95 (about 100 miles into SC).

WOKV still blasts into the Charleston area with the water path. Them along with 600 AM (5KW) cause co channel interference here on adjacent frequencies.

WBT struggles in the Charleston area (165-180 miles) daytime. It's a weak signal daytime. You probably need a loop to get a decently-listenable signal. Even as close in as Columbia, 75-80 miles out, it's not a local-quality signal. There's a lot of interference.

They got the FM at 99.3 years back, but it only serves Gaston and Cleveland counties west of Charlotte well (where WBT's signal doesn't even come in at night). It struggles in the populated area of Charlotte, and WBT is down to 15th place in the ratings, partly because of the growth of the market and the signal struggling in the fast-growing northern part of the market.

The nighttime skywave signal though is strong in most of the East Coast from Florida to Maine.

WPTF on 680 is better daytime. It comes in weak here daytime at about 220 miles or so and would come in stronger if WOKV wasn't as strong.

 

[Ai4i]

As a young lad growing up in Miami, I always wondered why the closest 1-A, "Welcome South, Brother" was so very difficult to hear at night.
Another relatively close one with a lackluster signal was known to have "Shielded Millions" from Nashville.
My strongest English language skywaves were always PJB, Bonaire, and WBT, Charlotte, probably in that order.

 

[gr8oldies]

Very interesting histor, David!
Some observations: I probably would have "voted" WLW but I haven't lived everywhere in the country. They still can pack a skywave punch in places like Alabama. I've lived in the Dayton, Ohio area, Fort Wayne and Lafayette, Indiana and a short stint in Quincy IL. I will say that in WLW's case, 300 road miles north of Mason, you can still get the signal on a decent car radio, but 300 miles south, it is barely there. I took WLW's "last breath" to west of Madison, WI during the daytime at one point on vacation in 1989. In East TN, I can get a weak WSM, WSB is barely there and splatterred by a local 760...not even all that present at night. WBT is mostly never to be found. Chicago clears and WJR will kick in at night....WSCR has more Cuba.

 

[dlf1]

Here in Canyon Lake, TX, WBAP is there, but an 810 out of Somerset, TX steps on them pretty good. In the pre-810 days, WBAP was solid during the day (roughly 250 road miles to the Mansfield site).

At night, we are in the cancellation zone: which is both surprising and impressive given the distance.

I do have a ground wave/sky wave cancellation question. WOAI booms in here 24/7, but on my business trips to the Valley, I will hear fading on WOAI about 90 miles south of San Antonio (around George West). KTSA (550) with 5,000 watts is pretty solid to Alice (roughly 160 miles). Am I still receiving a ground wave from a 5KW KTSA at night, while 50KW WOAI's signal suffers from cancellation?

I'm guessing KTSA's directional signal goes south; does a directional signal also have cancellation issues both in where the signal strength is sent and nulled? Just curious.

Dlf

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

But you are neglecting the differences in ground conductivity. Look at the conductivity in the areas where 640, 650 and 660 are located. Even the immediate Chicago area is in a mixed area with zones of 15, 8 and even 2. 700 is in an 8 zone,

The best performance is likely 820 in Dallas. In an area of 30, the lowest it gets anywhere nearby is 15.

I don't think M-3 is very accurate. People act like this map had a lot of research going into it. It was mainly based on a cobbling together of Class I measured contours, no further than 1 mV/m in many cases, and the proofs of very early directional antennas. Because these were mainly in the larger cities at low elevation in coastal water and river areas, it has a lot of river delta type areas overrepresented that overestimates conductivity in the larger vicinity. When stations have moved further out from these areas, the sites are usually disappointing, as has been discussed in other threads on this site. M-3 is useful as a worst case groundwave interference estimate, or as a grossly accurate first approximation. A well known consulting engineer told me that Chicago is one of the few areas where M-3 is fairly accurate. Maybe because they measured WMAQ, WGN, WBBM, WLS, WCFL, WIND, and WGES. Many Class Is. Very early DAs. HGR1290, David, Frank, myself, and perhaps others here remember how poorly WHGR, WCCW, WATC, WBMB, WJEB, WGRY, WWAM, and others got out into that "8" area in Central, West Central, and the Northern Lower Peninsula of Michigan. Measured radials demonstrate over and over again that real conductivity is 0.1-3.

 

[schmave]

I do have a ground wave/sky wave cancellation question. WOAI booms in here 24/7, but on my business trips to the Valley, I will hear fading on WOAI about 90 miles south of San Antonio (around George West). KTSA (550) with 5,000 watts is pretty solid to Alice (roughly 160 miles). Am I still receiving a ground wave from a 5KW KTSA at night, while 50KW WOAI's signal suffers from cancellation?

I'm guessing KTSA's directional signal goes south; does a directional signal also have cancellation issues both in where the signal strength is sent and nulled? Just curious.

Dlf

I will say yes and yes on WOAI and KTSA. Even with that great ground conductivity, a fade at 90 miles on 1200 AM is quite reasonable, as is 160 miles down at 550. Driving between Columbus and Toledo, Ohio many times over the years, 610 WTVN from Columbus would start to cancel right about Perrysburg, about 140 miles north of its tower. Conductivity in that part of Ohio is not as good as Texas but pretty good anyhow.
I do believe directional signals have cancellation no matter whether you're in the main lobe or the null. All AM signals will encounter either cancellation or simply being swallowed up by skywave at night.

 

[crainbebo]

KOA, probably. Their 50KW can reach all throughout the west, including Seattle (when KHHO isn't in the way), and it's S-9 almost every night in Yakima.
However, WBBM is right up there. I can get them more than 50% of winter nights in Yakima, and it has been heard as early as September before. This is a 1650 mile path. Sometimes they are as strong as KKOH.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't think M-3 is very accurate. People act like this map had a lot of research going into it. It was mainly based on a cobbling together of Class I measured contours, no further than 1 mV/m in many cases, and the proofs of very early directional antennas. Because these were mainly in the larger cities at low elevation in coastal water and river areas, it has a lot of river delta type areas overrepresented that overestimates conductivity in the larger vicinity. When stations have moved further out from these areas, the sites are usually disappointing, as has been discussed in other threads on this site. M-3 is useful as a worst case groundwave interference estimate, or as a grossly accurate first approximation. A well known consulting engineer told me that Chicago is one of the few areas where M-3 is fairly accurate. Maybe because they measured WMAQ, WGN, WBBM, WLS, WCFL, WIND, and WGES. Many Class Is. Very early DAs. HGR1290, David, Frank, myself, and perhaps others here remember how poorly WHGR, WCCW, WATC, WBMB, WJEB, WGRY, WWAM, and others got out into that "8" area in Central, West Central, and the Northern Lower Peninsula of Michigan. Measured radials demonstrate over and over again that real conductivity is 0.1-3.

Good points which I should have mentioned, even if generalizing about broad differences.

You are, I believe, correct in the accuracy of the Chicago area mapping. Any number of stations did measurements as powers were increased or sites moved outwards to compensate for urban sprawl starting in the late 40's. That is how the 2 zone along the sandy coast up to Ludington was discovered, I believe... I was told about that years ago by Roy Plank of the station in Ludington, in fact.

The area of the central northern MI does not have the population or radio revenues to finance extensive conductivity studies, and that same situation may apply to much of the US.

It makes me wonder if there are pockets of higher conductivity, too.

It is also interesting to note that the conductivity of each of the Great Lakes is different.

 

[semoochie]

Where I lived in Norcross, WCNN was so strong it caused overload in my radios. Never heard it from Florida. My point about Stone Mountain would be to do a direct contrast to the incredible ground conductivity in Lubbock. If I got up there with the same exact loop and radio I used in Lubbock, and managed to snag NYC or Chicago stations in the daytime, it would completely negate the ground conductivity theory. But if I couldn't get things like WSM, WBT, WOKV (Jacksonville FL), then that would confirm that low ground conductivity = poor reception. I tend towards the latter viewpoint. But I need to run the test. I have the loop and radio I used in Lubbock, so the only variable would be the ground conductivity.

So - my question to you - with your best radio, do YOU get WOKV, WSM, WBT and other stations in the 200 to 300 mile range in the daytime?

I am intrigued that you refer to "ground conductivity" as a "theory". This strikes me as roughly equivalent to touching a hot stove to see if you burn yourself!

 

[Ai4i]

I am intrigued that you refer to "ground conductivity" as a "theory". This strikes me as roughly equivalent to touching a hot stove to see if you burn yourself!

Well, there is the theory of gravity, the electric theory, the heliocentric theory, and of course the one that religious fundamentalists are always condeming as "just a theory".

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The high power was not as necessary in the daytime to cover the local market as it is today where power has to overcome man-made interference; in the 20's DXers on the East Coast of the US were hearing 200 watt AM stations from Australia because the band was emptier and there was little man made noise.

Interesting post - but I have a different observation on the situation in the 20's and 30's. I had a grandfather who died in 1939. My grandmother changed things little - if any - after his death. So when I came into radio awareness in the early 60's, the house was effectively a time capsule from the 1930's. Right down to the appliances in the kitchen - fed from a single set of screws that were the "outlet" in the ceiling, with (what I now know) were very unsafe wires down to a very antiquated refrigerator, toaster, fan, etc. A couple of dozen crumbling cloth wrapped AC cords. It was the same all over the house - harkening to an era when electrical codes did not exist, people did what they wanted to get power somewhere. There was not even hot water in the house. Plus mattresses that hadn't been replaced in 30 to 40 years. Everything was neat, clean, just completely outdated. Radio interference in that house was horrible, because of the 20's era wiring, the appliances with NO power factor correction, etc. Which makes my grandfather's observations about WLW even more remarkable. Lubbock may well have had to wait until after 1900 for electricity, as it is far from any natural source of power. If somebody told me electricity was only installed in the 20's there, I would not be a bit surprised.

A lot of us like to think of the "good old days" before a lot of man-made RF pollution, but I think with power grids in their infancy, no electrical codes, no understanding of power factor or filtering, AC voltage levels that were probably all over the place - interference might well have been worse. Whenever I pass by some farms that were only electrified during the New Deal, I can still hear horrific levels of radio interference from farm equipment that is probably on its last leg, but still useful enough for the farmer. There are a lot of antique "farm radios" - that use batteries on eBay. There is a whole hobby group dedicated to them, and how to replace the three batteries with a modern power supply. They were hazardous - especially the B+ battery - which was in the realm of 90V. There is a big difference in shock potential between DC and AC - I would hate to get my fingers across a B+ battery. I kind of wonder - were those radios still used AFTER rural electrification, because the AC power was so ugly coming into the homes, and the farmer needed a clean source of power for their radio?

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Where "measured" coverage maps show signals far in excess of known conductivities, I suspect that daytime skywave was being measured. rfry and I discussed this about the inexplicably strong coverage shown on an old CKLW coverage map toward Western Michigan.

There is no doubt that groundwave depends on conductivity. Daytime skywave and areas with usually lesser conductivity explain higher and lower daytime signals than predicted. If you are in an area where the soil is sand, gravel, or rock, and M-3 shows "8", you can almost certainly say that M-3 is wrong in that area. If the soil is clay or loam and mucky, you should see at least "8" in your measurements, unless there is a lot of major development in the area.