The old KRTH

[oldies76]

There is nothing contributed by one person out of 100 who is totally different than the group as a whole, and they represent a true danger.

If you valued the honest inputs of that one person, which is really 10-20 by the way, you'd have dynamic playlists that appealed to everyone, not just the group that chooses only the songs such radio station's playlists already consists of. Because if that's really the case, which I'm truly leaning on, then you are discarding the inputs of others that would like to see that radio station change for the better and provide a presentation that would please everyone. Would a few change the dial, possibly. But then that loss is balanced or even outweighed by people who truly enjoy music......the "outliers" as you say. Everyone enjoys music to some degree and radio needs to find ways to balance them in.

Otherwise, the stagnation, the boredom, the over-repetition , the lack of great jocks that care about their listeners (Michael Moore and the Saturday Night Request Show...a GREAT example) and the lack of creativity, such as weekend specials that Vinnie referenced, will continue and eventually ratings will suffer. People have alternatives.

 

[oldies76]

Case in point: "Ring My Bell" by Anita Ward. Every other phone call for a while was "please play "Ring My Bell". It was so bad that I actually told people after about a month of it "That's it, I'm sick of this song, I'm busting this record into pieces" and proceeded to smash it into oblivion.

Yeah, that's one record I can do without. "Valley Girl" is another.

 

[TheBigA]

Everyone enjoys music to some degree and radio needs to find ways to balance them in.

Actually that's not true. Commercial radio stations are private businesses. They don't "have to find ways" to do anything, any more than McDonalds has to find ways to balance in people who don't like hamburgers. The kinds of stations you prefer are non-commercial hobby stations that are run for the personal enjoyment and pleasure of the operators. That's a very different kind of thing. You can see the number of people those stations attract by the numbers posted here. It's wrong to assume the majority would be happy with the inclusion of music aimed at a small minority. As I've said before, be happy with what you have. If those small stations need money, you need to find ways to give it to them, because you and people like you are their only source of income.

 

[oldies76]

They don't "have to find ways" to do anything, any more than McDonalds has to find ways to balance in people who don't like hamburgers.

People who dislike hamburgers don't go to hamburger joints to begin with. People who like oldies or classic hits listen to oldies radio or other sources to find them. If they don't, then they are unhappy and you risk losing listeners.

 

[TheBigA]

If they don't, then they are unhappy and you risk losing listeners.

That's a trade-off. You can't please everyone, so you aim for the biggest group. That's what these stations do. Losing you and the ten other people like you is a calculated risk.

 

[michael hagerty]

That's a trade-off. You can't please everyone, so you aim for the biggest group. That's what these stations do. Losing you and the ten other people like you is a calculated risk.

As near as I can tell, we've been having this discussion with Oldies76 for five years now (seriously---2011). Here's the takeaway from that half-decade:

He's stuck on the idea that everyone has higher tolerance levels of songs they don't strongly like or outright love than they actually do. He believes that if most people don't actively dislike or hate a song, they'll stay tuned.

He believes that hitting a given number on a Billboard chart 40 or more years ago means the song is a hit for all time and that should guarantee airplay today (though, apparently, he'll make an exception for "Ring My Bell").

He believes that if you'd only just expose music and programming concepts from before the time of today's target listener, they'd love it.

And he believes that KRTH is consistently top five in the ratings because listeners have no choice, and that if you put KFXM up on top of Mt. Wilson with a 100,000 watt signal, they'd crush KRTH.

What's interesting in all this is that we all have something in common: We're way more interested in music than the typical listener. I could name every song on that week's KHJ Boss Thirty when I was in 9th grade. I'm betting David could do the same for the local Top 40 where he grew up and so could Oldies76. And maybe-----MAYBE---two or three other people in the whole school could do the same.

The other 997 (in the case of my school)? Five. Seven? Maybe ten, tops. They liked some songs that were popular at the time (most likely the seven that really were selling). Music was not their life in high school. And after high school, most of the non-music freaks I knew got really serious and really grown up really fast. They didn't have time to spend three hours with Casey Kasem writing down the top 30 backwards every week.

In other words, they never cared about---and don't remember---two-thirds of the songs I do.

If the core of KRTH is 35-54, that makes the center 45. So:

Born in 1971.
Graduated high school 1989.
Graduated college 1993.

A high statistical probability that he or she is:

Married.
Has at least one child in late high school or early college and one or more younger than that.
Works full time.

And we know that this person listens to Classic Hits not as a steady diet, but as part of a group of stations (between six and nine) that they share their listening time with.

Now...the trick to getting a strong rating here is to get as many of those people as possible who share a core of songs that they all agree on---the least likely to make them push the button sooner than they would anyway----to listen.

If it works, the ratings are good. KRTH is #3 right now. Consistently Top 5 overall. Performing well enough in the demo to make the cut for most ad agency buys. Not making the cut makes a difference of millions of dollars in billing per year.

Again, we have a lot in common. I believed a lot of the things Oldies76 believed when I was starting out as a young programmer. I learned through trial and error how people actually use the medium. As I've said before...what we really need is a radio programming simulator, so people can crash a few radio stations without costing stockholders money and people their jobs.

 

[michael hagerty]

People who dislike hamburgers don't go to hamburger joints to begin with. People who like oldies or classic hits listen to oldies radio or other sources to find them. If they don't, then they are unhappy and you risk losing listeners.

A couple of fallacies there.

First of all, people who dislike hamburgers do go to hamburger joints. It's why they have Filet-O-Fish and Chicken McNuggets. Practically every burger chain offers salads, chicken, fish, breakfast items (the only exception I can think of is In-N-Out, but even they have----and sell a decent number of----their burger with everything but the meat).

But (and I've used this analogy before):

Restaurants are on-demand. Oldies76 can have a Big Mac, I can have a Filet-O-Fish, David can have Chicken McNuggets and BigA can have an Egg McMuffin, all at the same time and we don't have to taste each other's food.

Radio, on the other hand, is one big garden hose. Only one thing comes through it at a time. I have to eat a Big Mac, Chicken McNuggets and and Egg McMuffin to get to my Filet-O-Fish and you three have to do the same. Except....there are other restaurants and you guys aren't family (I have never actually met any of you in person, to my knowledge---BigA is a mystery, so I can't rule it out), so I'll probably go someplace else if you try to make me eat Chicken McNuggets anytime or a Big Mac most days. I'd stick around for the McMuffin though.

But---if all four of us like all four of those foods, then we're okay. That's what successful radio stations do---they identify the songs the majority of the audience has in common as favorites, and plays those. Play songs that a majority don't share as favorites, and there are other radio stations to tune to. Do that to the listener often enough and they stop coming because their perception is you used to play really good music (in other words, music they liked).

 

[DrAkbar]

Then who gets the McRib Sandwich (for a limited time only)? )

 

[ChannelFlipper]

A couple of fallacies there.

First of all, people who dislike hamburgers do go to hamburger joints. It's why they have Filet-O-Fish and Chicken McNuggets. Practically every burger chain offers salads, chicken, fish, breakfast items (the only exception I can think of is In-N-Out, but even they have----and sell a decent number of----their burger with everything but the meat).

But (and I've used this analogy before):

Restaurants are on-demand. Oldies76 can have a Big Mac, I can have a Filet-O-Fish, David can have Chicken McNuggets and BigA can have an Egg McMuffin, all at the same time and we don't have to taste each other's food.

Radio, on the other hand, is one big garden hose. Only one thing comes through it at a time. I have to eat a Big Mac, Chicken McNuggets and and Egg McMuffin to get to my Filet-O-Fish and you three have to do the same. Except....there are other restaurants and you guys aren't family (I have never actually met any of you in person, to my knowledge---BigA is a mystery, so I can't rule it out), so I'll probably go someplace else if you try to make me eat Chicken McNuggets anytime or a Big Mac most days. I'd stick around for the McMuffin though.

But---if all four of us like all four of those foods, then we're okay. That's what successful radio stations do---they identify the songs the majority of the audience has in common as favorites, and plays those. Play songs that a majority don't share as favorites, and there are other radio stations to tune to. Do that to the listener often enough and they stop coming because their perception is you used to play really good music (in other words, music they liked).

I agree with everything that Michael has said on these previous posts. However, what he is really defending is lowest common denominator programming. To this day, what is the most popular flavor of ice cream? Vanilla. But when I cruise on over to the local Baskin Robbins, the one flavor I can guarantee that I won't be having is vanilla. Why should I when there are so many other new and exotic flavors that are much more interesting?

Most of the stations that are programmed to the lowest common denominator (vanilla) get good ratings for all of the reasons Michael says, but they completely lose people like me because we are looking for something more interesting, and you can only get "good radio" by stepping out of the comfort zone and trying something new, or if you play oldies, by having a varied playlist. I often use KROQ when they went away from AOR rock to experiment with this new thing called new wave and literally became a taste-maker instead of a taste follower as a good example of what radio can really be when it thinks outside the box. It is true that later on they did start using traditional radio research methods to narrow down the playlist to Top-40 style formatics, which many will say is what kept the format viable for many years and the station itself viable for many decades. But like a lot of other stations, they have failed to innovate and traded on those same formatics to the point where their audience has fractured. KROQ is stale and has been for 20 years.

In any case, as the BigA is very good at pointing out, my (and others like Oldies') taste is such that a mass medium like radio will never satisfy it. I have SiriusXM and probably use about 20 of their music channels in addition to internet radio to satisfy my need for variety. I am just glad I live in a time when such a product can be made available to me and I don't have to suffer through vanilla-bland, focus-group tested and approved radio any more.

 

[oldies76]

I am just glad I live in a time when such a product can be made available to me and I don't have to suffer through vanilla-bland, focus-group tested and approved radio any more.

You're exactly right. No one should. The problem today is that today's radio is stale without advances in creativity that made radio great so long ago. Today's crowd.....they are totally missing out. If only they knew and the same thing can be done today....but classic hits radio won't let them have a chance.

 

[TheBigA]

However, what he is really defending is lowest common denominator programming.

Is there something wrong with that? I spent part of my career catering to the elite intellectuals too. I know the difference. I get paid better doing what I do now.

If there was a way to make money catering to small audiences, we'd all do it. My personal music taste runs the gamut from bluegrass to jazz. None of it is on the radio. It's not there because it doesn't make money. I understand that, and I get what I want from other places. If you ask other people in radio, they'll tell you the same thing. We don't program our stations for ourselves. There's no money doing that. If you program for yourself, you get an audience of one. That's not good.

Today's crowd.....they are totally missing out. If only they knew and the same thing can be done today....but classic hits radio won't let them have a chance.

Today's audiences have the same options you do, and they choose stations like KRTH. They know the little LPFM stations exist. They choose not to listen. They choose not to pay $15 a month for Sirius. These are smart people, who have similar experiences as you, but make different choices. That's how things are. As for the stations not giving them the chance, in every case, when they've tried to expand their music list, it's bitten them in the butt. If you try something and get bit, you don't do it.

 

[gr8oldies]

Brother John Rydgren (host of the Christian show "Silhouettes" and the voice of ABC's "Love" format, passed away in 1988.
He's not to be confused with Brother Jon Rivers, who hosts a re-booted "Powerline" on the Tom Kent network.

Thank you gentlemen for all the info.

I wonder if John Rydgren is still around?

The Smoking Oldies format may not of done to well in the ratings having not lasted too long but it was pretty much my first taste of west coast AM radio and compared to what I listened to at the time in London, UK it sounded great - the tight programming, the typical deeper American voice, loud modulation and I believe 50kw of power all helped. You also have 10Khz channel spacing compared to our 9Khz and numerous good engineers who know how to get the best out of the studio processing and transmission system.

The nearest we had were the 60 pirate ships, R, Caroline & London and not forgetting years later Wolfman on the networked AFN from Germany who we could listen to at night via skywave.

Thank you again for your memories and if anyone can think of any possible old recordings sources I'd be most greatful.

David
Sunshine Radio 90.8
Cyprus

 

[michael hagerty]

You're exactly right. No one should. The problem today is that today's radio is stale without advances in creativity that made radio great so long ago. Today's crowd.....they are totally missing out. If only they knew and the same thing can be done today....but classic hits radio won't let them have a chance.

And you completely missed ChannelFlipper's point:

(screen goes all wavy, harp music plays):

To this day, what is the most popular flavor of ice cream? Vanilla.

That is not only universal---it's the case at Baskin-Robbins (ChannelFlipper's example). The customers there have a choice of 30 other flavors. Vanilla's number one.

Again, it's on demand. The 30 other flavors, though less popular, don't hurt Baskin-Robbins. But if you made every one who wanted vanilla eat a scoop of the 30 other flavors first (let's ignore how full they'd get), Baskin-Robbins would be out of business in 90 days.

 

[oldies76]

And you completely missed ChannelFlipper's point:

From Channel Flipper: "Most of the stations that are programmed to the lowest common denominator (vanilla) get good ratings for all of the reasons Michael says, but they completely lose people like me because we are looking for something more interesting, and you can only get "good radio" by stepping out of the comfort zone and trying something new, or if you play oldies, by having a varied playlist. I often use KROQ when they went away from AOR rock to experiment with this new thing called new wave and literally became a taste-maker instead of a taste follower as a good example of what radio can really be when it thinks outside the box. It is true that later on they did start using traditional radio research methods to narrow down the playlist to Top-40 style formatics, which many will say is what kept the format viable for many years and the station itself viable for many decades. But like a lot of other stations, they have failed to innovate and traded on those same formatics to the point where their audience has fractured. KROQ is stale and has been for 20 years."

Channel Flipper is mentioning that stations need to try something new and get out of the safe zone. That's what Baskin Robbins has done besides selling their #1 flavor....vanilla and it works. Radio needs to do the same, classic hits radio needs to be more creative. We have said this all along. I've said it, Steve has said it, Channel Flipper has said it, now our new poster Vinnie has mentioned it. We're not the only ones. Radio can indeed program to the masses, but it has to include something for the rest. The rest who enjoy music too. Nothing wrong by playing the #1 songs to the millennials during a holiday weekend. Radio is weary to even try. Too much caution and not enough willpower.

I didn't miss any point.

 

[TheBigA]

Radio needs to do the same, classic hits radio needs to be more creative.

Classic hits radio, as it's being done now, is the most successful it has ever been. There is no need to make a change, because it's working.

Being creative would make it less successful. The people who listen like it the way it is.

The only change they NEED to make is to aim at more people in their 40s, and that means dropping older songs.

Once again, radio doesn't have to do anything for you. You already have a station to listen to. So listen to it and be happy.

 

[CTListener]

From Channel Flipper: "Most of the stations that are programmed to the lowest common denominator (vanilla) get good ratings for all of the reasons Michael says, but they completely lose people like me because we are looking for something more interesting, and you can only get "good radio" by stepping out of the comfort zone and trying something new, or if you play oldies, by having a varied playlist. I often use KROQ when they went away from AOR rock to experiment with this new thing called new wave and literally became a taste-maker instead of a taste follower as a good example of what radio can really be when it thinks outside the box. It is true that later on they did start using traditional radio research methods to narrow down the playlist to Top-40 style formatics, which many will say is what kept the format viable for many years and the station itself viable for many decades. But like a lot of other stations, they have failed to innovate and traded on those same formatics to the point where their audience has fractured. KROQ is stale and has been for 20 years."

Channel Flipper is mentioning that stations need to try something new and get out of the safe zone. That's what Baskin Robbins has done besides selling their #1 flavor....vanilla and it works. Radio needs to do the same, classic hits radio needs to be more creative. We have said this all along. I've said it, Steve has said it, Channel Flipper has said it, now our new poster Vinnie has mentioned it. We're not the only ones. Radio can indeed program to the masses, but it has to include something for the rest. The rest who enjoy music too. Nothing wrong by playing the #1 songs to the millennials during a holiday weekend. Radio is weary to even try. Too much caution and not enough willpower.

I didn't miss any point.

You DID: the point that the Baskin Robbins customer doesn't have to taste all the other flavors -- or even any flavor other than the one he or she likes. With radio, you hear every song played, whether you tuned in to hear it or not. Classic hits radio that plays everything that hit the top 20 (just to dumb it down a bit, lol) would STILL be asking the listener who knows and loves the couple of dozen songs that research has constantly shown are the favorites of the greatest number of listeners to put up with songs that he or she either doesn't like, has forgotten because they didn't make a strong impression, or just plain never heard because he/she was listening to five or six stations as a teen and wasn't obsessed with the powerhouse Top 40 station.

Also, and I know folks like you think this is sacrilege, the music of our generation doesn't have an intrinsic appeal to people of other generations. It has spawned a few songs that have lasted to some extent, and some of those may retain enough appeal 20-40 years hence to become known as "standards," just as a very few of the thousands of songs ground out by Tin Pan Alley tunesmiths in the '30s and '40s have. Most of "our music" has no more appeal to people now in their teens, 20s and 30s than today's pop has to us. And the pop of today will have little to say to 18-34s of 2046. It has nada, zilch, zip, nothing to do with "quality." It's all pop music, not high art, not created to be anything but a temporary pleasure.

 

[Vinnie Daniels]

KRTH is #3 right now. Consistently Top 5 overall. Performing well enough in the demo to make the cut for most ad agency buys. Not making the cut makes a difference of millions of dollars in billing per year.

I'm not getting political here ... just saying that if Donald Trump were a member of this discussion board, I'm sure that when the topic of ratings and PPM comes up, he'd be chiming-in to say "the system is rigged," and he'd be right. Well, "rigged" has been proven to be true in a couple cases that I've read about when Don Barrett was regularly active with the LARP website. But I would certainly say it's an extremely flawed system. There's no arguing that away.

Do you realize that the fact of KRTH being #3, carries no meaning? In fact, let me amend the first part of that question. It is NOT A FACT that K-Earth has ANY true numeric value that PPM gives to them, or any station. The truth is, they could be #21 for all any of us knows, or will ever know.

Try to convince me that PPM is capable of measuring anything with any modicum of accuracy, compared to the various Arbitron methods of old. (Oldies76, would you join me in a chorus of "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?").

Look, there is no way I'm gonna trust what comes out of someone's PPM meter when you consider that maybe that person works in an office, has one of those meters strapped to them, and walks past God knows how many cubicles, playing God knows how many, varied radio stations. How is anyone suppose to divine any meaningful numbers from that?

 

[TheBigA]

Try to convince me that PPM is capable of measuring anything with any modicum of accuracy, compared to the various Arbitron methods of old.

I don't have to convince YOU of anything. You are not the reason radio uses PPM. The ratings are for advertisers, and the advertisers accept their accuracy. They're the ones who pay the money so you can listen for free. If YOU want to pay for radio, then I'll be interested in your opinion about PPM. Otherwise, I don't care.

 

[frankberry]

Okay folks ... you're going into the same old circular arguments again.

 

[Vinnie Daniels]

I don't have to convince YOU of anything.

I isolated the beginning of your quote to point up that your premise has a major problem with it.

When you say YOU, you mean the listening public. When the ratings get published in our local newspapers, then it's for public consumption and any station that is rated #1 will use that as bragging rights or in their next T.V. ad. When a system is as fundamentally flawed as PPM is, said station claiming and bragging that they're number one, may in reality be #2 or #3 or #15 for all we know.