Atlanta Radio, Really

[TheBigA]

Making money? Tell that to Clueless, 106.7, 98.9 and 100.5 are disaster's that need major help.

You don't understand the difference between revenues and debt. The NPR station in Nashville brings in 6 times as much money as WHPY. Maybe WHPY should ask for donations.

I think Big A and David feel your pain. Reality is a cold footed bedfellow...

I don't "feel your pain." I also don't depend on others to pay for my entertainment.

 

[wavo]

You don't understand the difference between revenues and debt. The NPR station in Nashville brings in 6 times as much money as WHPY. Maybe WHPY should ask for donations.



I don't "feel your pain." I also don't depend on others to pay for my entertainment.

Others DO pay for your entertainment if you listen to the radio...that's called a "sponsor."

 

[TheBigA]

Others DO pay for your entertainment if you listen to the radio...that's called a "sponsor."

I work in radio. I get sponsors to pay for our listeners' entertainment. But that doesn't mean it's what I listen to in my spare time.

Sponsors pay to reach specific listeners. If they don't want people who like classic hits, then we play something else.

 

[max100]

I work in radio. I get sponsors to pay for our listeners' entertainment. But that doesn't mean it's what I listen to in my spare time.

Sponsors pay to reach specific listeners. If they don't want people who like classic hits, then we play something else.

If you work in radio, then you should know how utterly dreadful this market is, not eveyone is black, millienial, or female, that wants to hear lame morning shows. And how do you know people do not want "real" classic hits, have you gone door to door to ask everyone?. JESUS. THIS RADIO MARKET SUCKS, and I guess you attribute to it..

 

[wavo]

Do you believe in the concept of free markets?
If enough people felt the same way then there would be market forced change. Stations need listeners to attract advertisers and create profits...
The two sports stations in Atlanta cater to none of the demos you mention. The two NPR stations do NOT cater to these groups. WRFG/89.3 has great blues programming EVERY morning, M-F for four hours each day. WREK 91.1 has esoterica every day of the week.
Spotify is waiting for you. It's free if you....you're gonna hate this...it's free if you listen to their commercials. Same for Pandora. You have options...

 

[davideduardo]

If you work in radio, then you should know how utterly dreadful this market is, not eveyone is black, millienial, or female, that wants to hear lame morning shows. And how do you know people do not want "real" classic hits, have you gone door to door to ask everyone?. JESUS. THIS RADIO MARKET SUCKS, and I guess you attribute to it..

Sales & revenue: a station must deliver salable 25-43 or 18-49 numbers.

"Oldies": 60s base pop gold. Audience delivery nearly all over 55.

"Classic Hits": mid 70's to early 90's gold. Audience delivery is predominantly 35-54 with a lot of 55-64 spillage.

And yes, lots of people want real oldies. But they are almost totally over 55, and you can not monetize 55+ with a music station in a top 10 market.

 

[wavo]

I work in radio. I get sponsors to pay for our listeners' entertainment. But that doesn't mean it's what I listen to in my spare time.

Sponsors pay to reach specific listeners. If they don't want people who like classic hits, then we play something else.

Sorry BigA...ANY time you listen to ANY radio station someone is paying for it. Even if you subscribe to your NPR affiliate you're only one of many footing the bill...same for satellite or any other entertainment service.
But I DO agree with your main point and you, along with David, have been consistent about this over the years. Market forces decide what you hear on the radio.
Max100...Can you think of a better system for people to use?

 

[max100]

Sales & revenue: a station must deliver salable 25-43 or 18-49 numbers.

"Oldies": 60s base pop gold. Audience delivery nearly all over 55.

"Classic Hits": mid 70's to early 90's gold. Audience delivery is predominantly 35-54 with a lot of 55-64 spillage.

And yes, lots of people want real oldies. But they are almost totally over 55, and you can not monetize 55+ with a music station in a top 10 market.

I guarantee you that 18-25 and up to 49 year old do not listen to radio like they use too. I am 56 and have way more disposable revenue than every 18 year old in this metro combined. Sorry to brag, better yet, if their is an FM signal available to buy, let me know? I knew radio when it meant something and was FUN to listen to. Not the BS CUMULUS, COX, CLEAR CHANNEL THROW OUT...TO THIS GREIVING MARKET.

 

[TheBigA]

If you work in radio, then you should know how utterly dreadful this market is

It's only "dreadful" for people like you. You don't pay for radio. Advertisers do. They want younger audiences. If people want classic hits, they can buy a radio station, they can subscribe to Sirius, they can pay for Pandora, or they can stream hundreds of out of market stations. You're an adult. Babies sit in their chair and expect to be fed. Not adults. You say you have disposable income, then SPEND some of it on a radio channel.

If enough people felt the same way then there would be market forced change. Stations need listeners to attract advertisers and create profits...

And those advertisers have decided they don't want to reach boomers like you through radio. They'll reach you via Fox News or some TV channel.

Sorry BigA...ANY time you listen to ANY radio station someone is paying for it.

Go back to what I said. I never said what I listen to, did I?

 

[max100]

It's only "dreadful" for people like you. You don't pay for radio. Advertisers do. They want younger audiences. If people want classic hits, they can buy a radio station, they can subscribe to Sirius, they can pay for Pandora, or they can stream hundreds of out of market stations. You're an adult. Babies sit in their chair and expect to be fed. Not adults. You say you have disposable income, then SPEND some of it on a radio channel.



And those advertisers have decided they don't want to reach boomers like you through radio. They'll reach you via Fox News or some TV channel.



Go back to what I said. I never said what I listen to, did I?

Your an arss, I bet you listen to Pandora and Sirius as well. Hopefully you'll be fired soon, it happens in this market on a daily. basis......

 

[TheBigA]

Your an arss, I bet you listen to Pandora and Sirius as well. Hopefully you'll be fired soon, it happens in this market on a daily. basis......

Really mature. Grow up. Nobody fires me.

 

[davideduardo]

I guarantee you that 18-25 and up to 49 year old do not listen to radio like they use(sic) too. I am 56 and have way more disposable revenue than every 18 year old in this metro combined. Sorry to brag, better yet, if their is an FM signal available to buy, let me know? I knew radio when it meant something and was FUN to listen to.

Read the Nielsen 2016 report about the relative listening levels of the population:

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Arbitron-Radio-Today/HowAmericaListens-2016.pdf

Yes, Millennials listen a little less than older demos, but they still listen over 11 hours a week which is a considerable amount of time.

Advertisers are not looking at listener bank accounts. They are looking at the cost per sale. And the older the consumer, the more ad impressions are required to make a sale; at some point the cost of advertising is greater than the profit on the sales. That's why there is essentially no transactional ad money against 55+.

 

[davideduardo]

Your an arss, I bet you listen to Pandora and Sirius as well. Hopefully you'll be fired soon, it happens in this market on a daily. basis......

I also listen to Pandora and Sirius regularly, as well as sampling other radio outlets. That is among the reasons why my arss and I are still employed.

 

[jabba17]

Some questions/theories I have long wondered...

1) Do (music) formats geared to people who can afford to buy their own bespoke radio experience (such as oldies formats and highbrow formats on satellite, streaming, etc.) lose out these days to formats geared to people who can't (teenybopper CHR, ethnic formats including country)? The big exception being spoken-word formats.

2) Is Atlanta perceived to be more of a goldmine for urban formats than it actually is, with the result being that a lot of companies (CBS, Cox, Radio One) and signals are chasing that market, possibly too many? It took Cox over two decades of patient trial and error but they finally got a big piece of that pie. But I am not sure there is enough to go around for all of the signals in the market.

3) Similar to 2), is Atlanta perceived to be a younger market than it is, leading to more CHR/alt and less oldies?

 

[TheBigA]

1) Do (music) formats geared to people who can afford to buy their own bespoke radio experience (such as oldies formats and highbrow formats on satellite, streaming, etc.) lose out these days to formats geared to people who can't (teenybopper CHR, ethnic formats including country)?

Read this thread. These formats HAVE to sell. Advertisers HAVE to be willing to buy spots on those stations. The history of radio, going back to the beginning, is that the minute advertisers don't buy spots in a format, that format goes away. It's why radio drama went away. It's why radio game shows went away. It's why, in most places, Sinatra and big bands went away. It's why commercial classical went away. It's why commercial jazz went away. It's why beautiful music went away. It's why oldies went away. It's why smooth jazz went away. Blame advertisers. They're the reason. There's no money in any of that. Unless the listeners are willing to pay for it themselves, it's not on the radio. Unless some guy (usually guys) is willing to foot the bill, and run a station with his own money (and there are several of them around the country), it goes away. That's the reality. None of us are in the music business. It comes down to getting advertisers to pay for something. That's all that matters.

 

[davideduardo]

1) Do (music) formats geared to people who can afford to buy their own bespoke radio experience (such as oldies formats and highbrow formats on satellite, streaming, etc.) lose out these days to formats geared to people who can't (teenybopper CHR, ethnic formats including country)? The big exception being spoken-word formats.

There is no evidence that "highbrow" formats have migrated to paid distribution. Classical music stations, for example, were declining in number and revenue while aging in demographics long before streaming existed and well before satellite radio was launched.

There is no indication that country or CHR does not appeal equally to people across many income levels. There is no indication that more affluent Hispanics or African Americans don't like the formats others in their particular age group like.

2) Is Atlanta perceived to be more of a goldmine for urban formats than it actually is, with the result being that a lot of companies (CBS, Cox, Radio One) and signals are chasing that market, possibly too many?

Stations target ("chase" is a bad term to use on many levels) different groups because there is a belief that there is money to be made. In Atlanta, 34% of the population is African American. Four of the top 10 highest billing stations target that group. Three of those four also achieve high listenership among Hispanics, who are about 12% of the market.

If those stations declined in listenership and revenue, they would look for something else to do. For the moment, the market is not oversaturated (and I do not count or consider the very marginal facilities or the AMs in making that statement).

It took Cox over two decades of patient trial and error but they finally got a big piece of that pie. But I am not sure there is enough to go around for all of the signals in the market.

Cox has the #4 station out of the 4 mentioned. It bills about one-third of what the top Urban station bills. It is doing well, but hardly the biggest success. They have a signal issue as they cover less than half the metro with a 65 dbu signal... while others cover nearly all of it.

3) Similar to 2), is Atlanta perceived to be a younger market than it is, leading to more CHR/alt and less oldies?

Atlanta has a median age that is 4 years younger than the national average of just over 37 years. But much of that is due to the younger median age for Hispanics and African Americans.

There is no significant "oldies" programming in any of the top 100 markets because the format appeals to an average age of around 65 or 70. That has nothing to do with the "youthfulness" of the market; it is related to the lack of ad revenue for music formats that appeal mostly to seniors and geezers.

 

[jabba17]

Read this thread. These formats HAVE to sell. Advertisers HAVE to be willing to buy spots on those stations. The history of radio, going back to the beginning, is that the minute advertisers don't buy spots in a format, that format goes away. It's why radio drama went away. It's why radio game shows went away. It's why, in most places, Sinatra and big bands went away. It's why commercial classical went away. It's why commercial jazz went away. It's why beautiful music went away. It's why oldies went away. It's why smooth jazz went away. Blame advertisers. They're the reason. There's no money in any of that. Unless the listeners are willing to pay for it themselves, it's not on the radio. Unless some guy (usually guys) is willing to foot the bill, and run a station with his own money (and there are several of them around the country), it goes away. That's the reality. None of us are in the music business. It comes down to getting advertisers to pay for something. That's all that matters.

I know that if a format doesn't sell, it doesn't air. No need to pound the table with that.

My question was, WHY doesn't it sell anymore? Is it JUST because the target demo has aged out, is it because the format has gone out of style, or is it (as I am hypothesizing) there are now MANY more options for listening to those formats that appeal to marginally-profitable demos, perhaps pushing these marginally-profitable stations upside-down?

To put it another way, to use your comment "Unless the listeners are willing to pay for it themselves", well, now there are many ways to do just that and get a better experience to boot than terrestrial radio can offer. Has THAT killed what was left?

As an aside, smooth jazz went away because PPMs were not friendly to "environmental" formats, also including soft AC (and what was left of BM/EZ), which killed the ratings and thus the salability of that format. Doesn't change the end result but it's not a result of the demo aging out or any of the other usual suspects.

 

[wavo]

The good news for max100 and all others who crave their oldies and classic hits is that all of that can be found on the internet. There are some really good internet stations too! If you can afford the fees for Sound Exchange, and the infrastructure costs, you should consider streaming your own station too - especially if you find all the other choices lacking.

 

[TheBigA]

My question was, WHY doesn't it sell anymore? Is it JUST because the target demo has aged out, is it because the format has gone out of style,

That's a question to ask advertisers. It's not a radio decision. Ask the advertisers why they won't buy certain formats. I'll play whatever I can get sponsored. I have no bias. If you can find me lots of advertisers, I'll play the Five Satins or anyone you want. I don't want to be defending advertisers. They can defend themselves.

Doesn't change the end result but it's not a result of the demo aging out or any of the other usual suspects.

I didn't say smooth jazz or any of those formats were killed by the demo aging out. All I said was advertisers weren't buying them, for whatever reasons. At the end of the day, ratings don't matter and the age of the audience really doesn't matter. Because obviously SOMEONE is buying WSB, and we all can be sure that kids don't listen to WSB.

 

[b-turner]

Amazing. Let's see, those of us explain the reality we live with every day to keep our jobs but somehow for people like Max100 we are the arss. I get it. You and only you know radio. So, explain why you have not leased, purchased or convinced a station owner to do radio your way? In 6th grade we used to say, the one who smelled it, dealt it. Might a variation apply here? I wish I could do radio 'my way' but I need my paycheck. By the way, I feel my Dad's pain too. He hasn't listened to radio in a couple of decades. He'd love a beautiful music station in his city.