The simpler answer is that they don't do music testing in those formats, and it shows.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Radio Days
- Thread starter John FL
- Start date
The simpler answer is that they don't do music testing in those formats, and it shows.
I’m agreeing with the many points regarding SiriusXM. One of the main reasons for subscribing is I felt commercial radio was too limited in format choices. There’s also too much repetition and overlap of songs among different formats.
Music testing is talked about a lot. When a long-time Jacksonville radio station retired (former Rock 105/Rock 104.5), I read many testimonials from listeners who were recalling all the wonderful moments they had with the station. One listener wrote about taking part in music testing. His description indicated this was in a formal setting, such as an auditorium. Everyone had to be a rock music fan and there were age restrictions. It was very narrow (10 year spread) I can’t remember what the exact age requirement was.
He was frustrated because he saw positive reaction from other participants when they heard what he described as “burned out songs.” There were songs he loved but the reactions from most of the others conveyed a “deer in the headlights look.” I’m confident that music testing that is done in a more controlled environment will yield the most advantageous results for the station. Also, no one is totally happy with all the songs they hear no matter the platform.
I’ve also seen radio stations solicit listener feedback by providing a link where the listener can hear portions of many songs where they will rate them. If I’m remembering correctly, there were also choices for “Not familiar with the song” and the “song is overplayed.” Age, DOB, gender and email address is requested as well as what radio stations the participant listens to. This is what I saw most times.
I would hope these type solicitations/research don’t carry heavy weight. A couple years ago, I took part in a number of these. I may have participated in one for Jacksonville. The others were South Florida. I figured if I put my real age down, all my time and effort would go down the drain as my opinions wouldn’t count. So, for AC feedback, I was a 38 year old female. I figured they would give more consideration to my choices. But then, I’m not the target demo. Again, I would hope decisions are not based on this because the data would not be valid. A competitor could easily participate as well skewing the results.
I remember reading about a format where I lived called “Free Form.” This was in the early days of FM, maybe 1965. The format was designated as the “Anti Top 40.” Jocks could play whatever they wanted. Rock to reggae to jazz to R&B, you name it. There were quite a good number of well-known NYC personalities who were a part of this. Obviously, it didn’t last long because obscure, train wreck programming didn’t work then and it doesn’t work now.
In some ways, SiriusXM is regarded as the “Anti Commercial Radio” option. Don’t like a song, you can switch to another one of THEIR stations. With people paying subscriptions, they probably figure few would jump back to commercial radio. Although there is the risk that some will not renew. I’ve found a few stations that I enjoy the most. I figured I would love decades channels such as 60’s, 70’s and 80’s but there’s a lot of songs in the mix I simply don’t like so there’s lots of “button pushing.” But that exists in radio too, right?
Music testing is talked about a lot. When a long-time Jacksonville radio station retired (former Rock 105/Rock 104.5), I read many testimonials from listeners who were recalling all the wonderful moments they had with the station. One listener wrote about taking part in music testing. His description indicated this was in a formal setting, such as an auditorium. Everyone had to be a rock music fan and there were age restrictions. It was very narrow (10 year spread) I can’t remember what the exact age requirement was.
He was frustrated because he saw positive reaction from other participants when they heard what he described as “burned out songs.” There were songs he loved but the reactions from most of the others conveyed a “deer in the headlights look.” I’m confident that music testing that is done in a more controlled environment will yield the most advantageous results for the station. Also, no one is totally happy with all the songs they hear no matter the platform.
I’ve also seen radio stations solicit listener feedback by providing a link where the listener can hear portions of many songs where they will rate them. If I’m remembering correctly, there were also choices for “Not familiar with the song” and the “song is overplayed.” Age, DOB, gender and email address is requested as well as what radio stations the participant listens to. This is what I saw most times.
I would hope these type solicitations/research don’t carry heavy weight. A couple years ago, I took part in a number of these. I may have participated in one for Jacksonville. The others were South Florida. I figured if I put my real age down, all my time and effort would go down the drain as my opinions wouldn’t count. So, for AC feedback, I was a 38 year old female. I figured they would give more consideration to my choices. But then, I’m not the target demo. Again, I would hope decisions are not based on this because the data would not be valid. A competitor could easily participate as well skewing the results.
I remember reading about a format where I lived called “Free Form.” This was in the early days of FM, maybe 1965. The format was designated as the “Anti Top 40.” Jocks could play whatever they wanted. Rock to reggae to jazz to R&B, you name it. There were quite a good number of well-known NYC personalities who were a part of this. Obviously, it didn’t last long because obscure, train wreck programming didn’t work then and it doesn’t work now.
In some ways, SiriusXM is regarded as the “Anti Commercial Radio” option. Don’t like a song, you can switch to another one of THEIR stations. With people paying subscriptions, they probably figure few would jump back to commercial radio. Although there is the risk that some will not renew. I’ve found a few stations that I enjoy the most. I figured I would love decades channels such as 60’s, 70’s and 80’s but there’s a lot of songs in the mix I simply don’t like so there’s lots of “button pushing.” But that exists in radio too, right?
Mix was on 102.9 till 2000. It was WMXQ with a hot AC format from about '96-'97 on (when it flipped from WIVY), then it went to the Point as 80s music during that 80s music craze around the turn of the century.
WAPE had a huge listenership outside of the Jacksonville market when that meant something in the 60s and 70s. It was in the top 10 stations in Savannah and Charleston, and well-listened to as far as Wilmington, NC. That's probably why they wanted to keep the AM signal the way it was.
Jacksonville had two AM country stations at the time, WVOJ 1320, and 1090 AM (not on air anymore). They outrated WQIK-FM in the 1976 book. The FM rating surged, as David stated, later in the 70s.
Much of the information mentioned is accessible at www.americanradiohistory.com , particularly in the Duncan's American Radio compilations of Arbitron ratings.
While some of my comments are based on the time I was with Metroplex (WFYV was owned by them), I was a manager down at the WHYI/WHTT complex in Miami and learned most of what I heard about the revenue aspects from our manager in Jacksonville.
Music testing, while called an Auditorium Music Test, is done in some kind of meeting room, such as at a hotel. Or it is done online. In any case, the recruiting is done by outreach using very tight demographic and radio usage controls.
Here is a test being done: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/research_AMT.htm
While one could look around to see the reaction of others to each song, remember that the snippets of songs played are usually 8" long and there is not much time to score each one and to be looking around the room. Scoring may be done on a paper form or via an electronic dial.
That type of self-recruited research is fairly useless. It is open to your competitor distorting your results and to people lying to see if they win something. Recruiting by outreach (random calls or intercepts) is the preferred method.
You proved my point!
Generally, stations do this to give listeners the idea that they "count". I think the whole idea is dumb.
As I said, I think that satellite radio's big shortcoming is that they do not do their own research on music. They rely on things like BDS or Mediabase listings and the dumb idea that subscribers want a broader list than terrestrial radio.
Having spoken with the programmers there, my sense is that they want their subscribers to THINK it's a broader list, but in truth, the majority of the songs are the same 30 currents they hear on OTA. They make a big deal about breaking new songs and new artists. Its good for their image. It's good for label relations. But they don't have any commercials so they can squeeze in four more songs an hour, they don't play the AQH game, or program for cume, or anything that we consider conventional. And it wins them the 8% of the serious music lovers who will gladly pay $15 or more a month to feel like they're getting something extra. Still, their currents channels are chart reporters, so they have to play the hits just like a lot of the other reporters.
Thanks for the info. It was an amazing change that took place. The teens were among the first to make the switch. Besides FM being the new cool and trendy radio band, teens were too young to have remained loyal. There wasn't enough history. And of course, they didn't want to listen to their parents' station. Apparently, country formats have been a part of the Jacksonville radio format wheel for quite some time. No wonder, the format remains popular here. WQIK today is king of the world.
Much appreciated. I've bookmarked American Radio History. I know I will enjoy finding information from that source. Apparently, I'm not as good as I thought finding info via search engines. Your analysis on music scheduling was very informative as well. I'm sure the readers agree.
Wow guys thanks for all these great posts in this thread. I really enjoyed reading all this information and history. I've lived in Jacksonville all my life and am absolutely fascinated with the history of radio in general and especially Jacksonville radio. You've got me motivated to start posting and sharing information and asking questions. One of my hobbies is listening to old radio airchecks on airchexx.com and also YouTube along with other sites. There's some from Jacksonville radio stations on there but I wish there were a whole lot more though.
Welcome to the radio board, Chuck. It’s great getting different perspectives. I hope you do participate.
Back to Radio Days. The 1980’s were an interesting decade from a radio perspective. But, It still goes back to what I said earlier. Our tastes and preferences are formed during our wonder years. A lot of that is based on the geographic area where we grew up. That includes the diversity or the lack of it in that community.
So, it was no surprise that I found South Florida radio incredibly exciting. It was electric just like the community. Music was changing. “Freestyle” songs (dance) proved popular in diverse communities such as Miami. In Jacksonville, I’ve heard enough airchecks to conclude that outside of major rhythmic crossover hits, this type genre of music did not have a heavy presence. No surprise here.
It was in the early 80’s where I found myself at the “club” every weekend. It wasn’t to dance but rather to listen to the music and take in all the reactions to what was being played. I made friends with the DJ. We wound up working together. I arrived early to listen to new music. I put in my two cents. My batting average wasn’t bad at all. If the dance floor filled up, we knew we had a hit.
The radio station I listened to the most back then was CHR WHYI Y100. This was FM, of course. The genius behind this awesome radio station was a guy by the name of Bill Tanner. The playlist was truly the soundtrack of the community. The local Ft. Lauderdale newspaper published a weekly Top 10 from Y100 as well as the Billboard Top 10. There were huge differences.
Y100 was probably not typical of most CHR stations of the day. A number of songs that proved popular on the dance floor eventually wound up on the playlist. How Y100 determined what songs to play proved their methods were spot on. It was rare to not like everything. It seems mass appeal was still alive and well. From the personalities to the vibe of the station, they captured what FM had become. This was their hayday. All the right ingredients came together and it was amazing to behold.
There’s one particular song I’d like to highlight. There were many. When I first heard the song “A Night to Remember” by Shalamar, I was blown away. I just knew it would get great reaction at the club. I loved it so much, I believed it deserved radio airplay because it fit in perfectly with the upbeat, rhythmic elements of the station.
We played it twice one night and the folks really got into it. I called the station and spoke to one of the jocks who knew me pretty well. I got the usual, we’ll pass it along but it’s not my decision. A week or two later, Y100 did play the song. I don’t take credit for that. I’m sure whatever criteria they used to add songs was the determining factor. My satisfaction was simply identifying a hit.
What’s really cool was that song went on to be #1 for 4 weeks and it was, if my memory serves me correctly, the #1 song of the year in 1982. It was all about what worked best on a local level. This song never even cracked the Top 40 in the US. It was a big UK hit and reached a modest #15 spot on the dance charts. That song has such a special place with me that it’s long been in my Top 5 favorites from the 80’s.
In 1982, “Caught up In You” by Jacksonville’s “38 Special” played on Jacksonville airwaves. It reached #10 on the billboard charts but I never remember that song on Y100. If it was played, it was on a limited rotation. Along with Lynyrd Skynyrd, I never heard of 38 Special until I got to Jax.
In case you are not familiar with “A Night To remember here it is. For the times, this video was HOT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwvf2ilsogo
More 80's to come. Times were changing and so was I.
Back to Radio Days. The 1980’s were an interesting decade from a radio perspective. But, It still goes back to what I said earlier. Our tastes and preferences are formed during our wonder years. A lot of that is based on the geographic area where we grew up. That includes the diversity or the lack of it in that community.
So, it was no surprise that I found South Florida radio incredibly exciting. It was electric just like the community. Music was changing. “Freestyle” songs (dance) proved popular in diverse communities such as Miami. In Jacksonville, I’ve heard enough airchecks to conclude that outside of major rhythmic crossover hits, this type genre of music did not have a heavy presence. No surprise here.
It was in the early 80’s where I found myself at the “club” every weekend. It wasn’t to dance but rather to listen to the music and take in all the reactions to what was being played. I made friends with the DJ. We wound up working together. I arrived early to listen to new music. I put in my two cents. My batting average wasn’t bad at all. If the dance floor filled up, we knew we had a hit.
The radio station I listened to the most back then was CHR WHYI Y100. This was FM, of course. The genius behind this awesome radio station was a guy by the name of Bill Tanner. The playlist was truly the soundtrack of the community. The local Ft. Lauderdale newspaper published a weekly Top 10 from Y100 as well as the Billboard Top 10. There were huge differences.
Y100 was probably not typical of most CHR stations of the day. A number of songs that proved popular on the dance floor eventually wound up on the playlist. How Y100 determined what songs to play proved their methods were spot on. It was rare to not like everything. It seems mass appeal was still alive and well. From the personalities to the vibe of the station, they captured what FM had become. This was their hayday. All the right ingredients came together and it was amazing to behold.
There’s one particular song I’d like to highlight. There were many. When I first heard the song “A Night to Remember” by Shalamar, I was blown away. I just knew it would get great reaction at the club. I loved it so much, I believed it deserved radio airplay because it fit in perfectly with the upbeat, rhythmic elements of the station.
We played it twice one night and the folks really got into it. I called the station and spoke to one of the jocks who knew me pretty well. I got the usual, we’ll pass it along but it’s not my decision. A week or two later, Y100 did play the song. I don’t take credit for that. I’m sure whatever criteria they used to add songs was the determining factor. My satisfaction was simply identifying a hit.
What’s really cool was that song went on to be #1 for 4 weeks and it was, if my memory serves me correctly, the #1 song of the year in 1982. It was all about what worked best on a local level. This song never even cracked the Top 40 in the US. It was a big UK hit and reached a modest #15 spot on the dance charts. That song has such a special place with me that it’s long been in my Top 5 favorites from the 80’s.
In 1982, “Caught up In You” by Jacksonville’s “38 Special” played on Jacksonville airwaves. It reached #10 on the billboard charts but I never remember that song on Y100. If it was played, it was on a limited rotation. Along with Lynyrd Skynyrd, I never heard of 38 Special until I got to Jax.
In case you are not familiar with “A Night To remember here it is. For the times, this video was HOT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwvf2ilsogo
More 80's to come. Times were changing and so was I.
Last edited:
Bill Tanner is one of the finest programmers I know.
I first knew him when he was in Jackson, MS and I was in Birmingham, AL. We exchanged tips on jocks that were "across the street" from us that were very good who we wanted to go to another market.
I later worked with him at Metroplex in Miami and learned much from him. I worked again with him under Cecil Heftel in LA and later in Miami and Dallas.
Y-100 was one of the first stations to do call-out research. That was back around 1976. It was done by hand, and by 1980 it was computerized under the supervision of research consultant Jon Coleman. But the key to "The Amazing FM" was the airstaff. Kramer, The Madame, Cox on the Radio, Mark in the Dark and many others were just superb talent, backing "Tanner in the Morning" with a day full of fun.
JohnJax speaking of Sunny 102.3 do you know do they do any advertising at all? I haven't noticed any commercials or any advertising anywhere and it's really a great station and the only reason I know about it is because I'm a radio junkie and always scanning the dial. I know they were previously 1600 am the Beach and had a talk format. It reminds me a little bit of Sunny 105.9 in Orlando. You would think if they did a little advertising that could help them tremendously.
You may have been fortunate enough to catch Sunny 102.3 when they do "10 in a row." I've heard a good number of spots on the station. There not overrun by spots there are a number of PSAs too. Sunny's major problem is poor signal. They are after all being translated by WSOL-FM. A translator can only be at max 250 watts. Compare that to a 96.1 WEJZ, for example, at 100,000 watts and there's really no comparison in signal strength. So, there's a lot of distortion when driving around. It turns me off. Listening inside an office building I would think is impossible. A shame because the content is great and worthy of a much better signal..
Totally agree. From the PD to the entire airteam, there is no question talent proved to be an asset and not a liability. Y-100 was trully "The Amazing FM." Since we are engaged in radio days nostalgia, there was an event that occurred soon after.
By 1990, Cox Media initiated WFLC (97.3) (South Florida's Coast) The station's tagline went something like "More music, less talk.: "We never talk over the music, ever." The talent had a diminished role. South Florida was long known as a personality driven market. Just one case in point was our discussion of Y-100 under Bill Tanner's leadership.
I've often wondered. Was this direction at WFLC merely floating a trial balloon to see if it could work? Was a long-term lean and mean strategy at play? Or, was there clear evidence that indicated listeners were opting for less personality in radio?
As I mentioned earlier, I've seen specific station outreach to their listeners requesting information and preferences. Among these are the importance of the talent to you (the listener) as well as traffic reports. I tend to be skeptical about some research or even intent because in the end, owners and managers will do what they think is best for the profitability of the company and it's not necessarily about the listener.
In my own industry which was banking, we had directives to push customers toward what was known as "Alternative Delivery Methods." This was the ATM. Was this something the customers really wanted or did we try to influence behavior? In the end many lost their livelihood in banking and in so many working people have lost out to machines and automation.
A good deal of business does manipulate their clients/customers/listeners to serve their own agenda. Is there really anything new with all of that? Perhaps, it just seems more aggressive and widespread nowadays.
I just wonder if the talent at WFLC way back when did such a great job proving they weren't needed, that they were the forerunners of what would become normal operating procedure. Perhaps radio was reaching a point where talent was considered a liability, in some cases, and not always an asset. Lots to think about as we look at the past and how it affects us even today..
Last edited:
My view about that is it's all about format and competition. If Miami was such a strong personality market, and you say that it was, then the right approach for a new format is to counter-program what everyone else is doing. They certainly weren't going to outdo Y-100. That was the idea here, although I think a previous format on that frequency, WAIA, was also a less talk station.
But certain formats benefit from this approach. When the market zigs left, try to zig right. Offer something that's not available, and you might find your niche. They certainly did with this station. I don't know if they were "forerunners" of anything, because the same approach was taken in lots of other places long before 1990.
Of course, the un-Y-100 was Keith Eisley's I-95 at in the early 80's. It was tight, minimally personable but had some good talent such as Don Cox doing a less personality format but with superb mechanics.
I-95 capitalized on Tanner's exit to Washington, DC and did a pretty good job without actually winning. The big change was around 1985 when Tanner took WQHT to #1 only to be fired... upon which he went to WPOW and made it happen for more than two decades as PD and then consultant.
What you are sying makes sense to try to differentiate yourself from all the other stations. However, all I was trying to say is if a diminished talent role proved successful, then that strategy could be tried again, especially if the intent was to decrease expenses.
Per Mr. Eduardo's statements, I was never too fond of I-95. It's the way of radio as I mentioned above. Something proves successful and then there's more of it. Miami wound up with 3 CHR formats, the other station was 96X. I think I-95 became the third in the fray if I remember right.
Last edited:
The other way to decrease expenses is to pay people poorly. That was certainly a popular approach in radio. If you speak with a lot of legendary personalities outside of major markets, they will fill you with stories about how much money they made for their owners, and how little they got paid. That was the driving force behind a lot of great personalities moving to major markets. Others held down multiple jobs, or promoted concerts in their market to make extra money. Some got into artist management and record production, and combined that with on-air work, leading to payola laws. Some got into station ownership themselves. But the idea that owners killed personality as strictly a cost-savings device is mythology. Today, most of the highest paid people in radio are on air personalities. Today as then, personalities need to demonstrate their value to their employers. Those who can do that have no problem getting work.
WMJX lost its license and went off the air in February of 1981, and it was not relicensed and back on until mid-1985 as Power 96.
I-95 filled the period when there was no other CHR station.
I have vague recollection of this but I believe it offers a perfect segue into the next topic. Despite the passage of time, my memory is the sharpest on the things that were personally satisfying. Sometimes, I can hear an old song and recall the words of certain DJ’s who talked up the song. It’s as if it was yesterday but it’s now many decades later.
In my radio travels, I’ve read a great deal about ratings and how radio uses them. There’s the 18-34 demo. It seemed I was in that one an incredibly long time. Why does time move so quickly as one gets older? Interestingly for me, I found the distinction between 18-34 and 35+ to be very real.
There came a time, I found CHR was “not as good as it was.” Y-100 was now in different hands. Bill Tanner left South Florida, came back as David pointed out. I made all kinds of excuses for my change in taste. What I came to learn is probably the teens and 20 somethings were digging it but I wasn’t. I was changing. I was moving on in many levels including finally growing up and settling down.
In addition to the oldies format that I will discuss later, I also discovered the news/talk format. With the massive exodus of music lovers to FM, AM became the home of many news/talk formats. To me, I figured non-music formats such as sports as well would find a home and all would be well with AM. It looked like that would be the case for a while.
I wonder if Jacksonville had the same caliber of talk shows South Florida had in the 80’s and even 90’s. There was something about this guy named “Neil Rogers.” I started listening to him at night even through the Cuban interference. For the first time, I experienced poor nighttime reception. This was new to me. Obviously, a clear channel radio station such as WABC had no issue. In fact they were heard in dozens of states at night.
Eventually, Neil moved to middays on another station. I think that was 940 WINZ. Gone were the geriatric topics and callers. He became a smarter version of shock jock stuff. YouTube is loaded with his shows. If you care to listen, you’ll understand what I mean. He wound up doing so well, his show (daypart) wound up #2 in the market behind AC WLYF. To me, AM had found itself and things were looking up. If memory serves me correctly, there were 5 stations offering local, live talk. There were many quality shows and competition even on AM was heating up.
When I got to Jax in the late 90’s and heard “Lex and Terry,” I couldn’t help but compare them to Neil Rogers. Neil was far more interesting to me. But then again, I had a mentality of a different market. I doubt Jax would have taken a chance on an out of the closet gay liberal who was Jewish too. Much of radio, after all, is market driven.
Almost all my life, I’ve suffered from insomnia. Another favorite of mine was “Jerry Wichner” who hosted the overnight show on WNWS. Imagine that, there was someone on the air overnight. I always found the overnight daypart an especially interesting one given the kind of people who are up then. There's something about the stillness of those late or early hours.
Many of the callers were women who had cigarette raspy voices. Some sounded like they “had a few” too. It was a lot of fun listening to that. Jerry had a soft, relaxing voice that could literally put you to sleep. This is a complement. I’d often fall asleep with the radio on.
Each hour after the news, he played “Help Me Make It Through The Night” by Sammi Smith. That song’s lyrics and easy sound was just perfect for those early morning hours. I wound up buying the album which represented a departure from my personal tastes. Today, I listen to that song a few times a week. It’s a special memory.
There was a time radio broadcasters became associated with certain songs. There was also a time, some would end their show with a certain song. That song would gain a notoriety all its own based on that amount of airplay and all the listeners impressions made over the years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonH-w7mGlQ
- Status