Buffalo/Niagara Falls and Rochester - Your Slip is Showing!

[SirRoxalot]

Nielsen's Red Book - their RADIO MARKET SURVEY POPULATION, RANKINGS & INFORMATION - shows movement in market ranking for both markets. Buffalo's down to #58 and Rochester falls to Market #60. Southern markets continue to grow population. The best thing that can be said about Buffalo is that population has largely stabilized.

If you look at Total Service Area instead of Metro, Buffalo-Niagara Fall's population is 1,327,100 - . Rochester's TSA is 1,194,600.

If you look at Television Rankings, Buffalo is Market #52. Rochester is #80. None of the rankings take Canadian consumers into account.

 

[tbolt909]

The NFL is well aware of this data. The Buffalo Bills would be a likely candidate for relocation. The NFL wants a team in England at some point. The pool of international money is far greater than anything that can be generated in Buffalo. The franchise has been moribund for 20 years.

Even though the Canadian population doesn't count toward market size, local stations can still get some clients there. The invisible Northern Wall hasn't shut down travel...

 

[TheBigA]

Buffalo is one of the lucky ones. Across the state, Syracuse dropped from 94 to 98. Pretty likely they'll drop out of the Top 100 next time.

 

[Rob Piotrowski]

The NFL is well aware of this data. The Buffalo Bills would be a likely candidate for relocation. The NFL wants a team in England at some point. The pool of international money is far greater than anything that can be generated in Buffalo. The franchise has been moribund for 20 years.

Even though the Canadian population doesn't count toward market size, local stations can still get some clients there. The invisible Northern Wall hasn't shut down travel...

The Bills aren't going anywhere as long as the Pegulas own the team. Make bank on it.

 

[SirRoxalot]

The NFL is well aware of this data. The Buffalo Bills would be a likely candidate for relocation. The NFL wants a team in England at some point. The pool of international money is far greater than anything that can be generated in Buffalo. The franchise has been moribund for 20 years.

Even though the Canadian population doesn't count toward market size, local stations can still get some clients there. The invisible Northern Wall hasn't shut down travel...

I'm pretty sure that the NFL is aware of the Canadian population in the Buffalo Bills sports sphere. They encouraged the games in Toronto even if the results were less than stellar. The Pegulas own the franchise and don't seem likely to send it to England, or anywhere else for that matter. If the NFL wants to go international they'll likely need to do it in a separate league, which they tried before. The travel and logistics are simply too daunting for a steady diet of teams heading across the pond weekly. It's not as if they're not already making a healthy profit.

 

[davideduardo]

The NFL is well aware of this data. The Buffalo Bills would be a likely candidate for relocation. The NFL wants a team in England at some point. The pool of international money is far greater than anything that can be generated in Buffalo. The franchise has been moribund for 20 years.

Even though the Canadian population doesn't count toward market size, local stations can still get some clients there. The invisible Northern Wall hasn't shut down travel...

One of reasons that the Canadian population does not benefit Buffalo stations is the (unless it changed in the las few months) Canadian tax la was that do not permit Canadian businesses to expense money spent on US radio and TV advertising. That increases the cost by an amount equal to the incremental tax rate on the expenditure.

As to international expansion, note how quickly the NFL cancelled the Mexico Cith (CDMX) game. Those single games are fine for the excitement factor but there is no huge fan base. Most of the attendees at the CDMX games have been local residents who went to college in the US, not enough to sustain a team week after week with a sport that is not mass appeal elsewhere.

 

[davideduardo]

Nielsen's Red Book - their RADIO MARKET SURVEY POPULATION, RANKINGS & INFORMATION - shows movement in market ranking for both markets. Buffalo's down to #58 and Rochester falls to Market #60. Southern markets continue to grow population. The best thing that can be said about Buffalo is that population has largely stabilized.

If you look at Total Service Area instead of Metro, Buffalo-Niagara Fall's population is 1,327,100 - . Rochester's TSA is 1,194,600.

If you look at Television Rankings, Buffalo is Market #52. Rochester is #80. None of the rankings take Canadian consumers into account.

What makes Buffalo so differen is that it ranks in the top 50 on radio revenue... 44th last year.

Very few media buys are made on TSA numbers (Total SURVEY Area), particularly since the PPM m@rkets don’t have a TSA... just an MSA. So buyers tend to look at MSA data in all markets.

 

[tbolt909]

One of reasons that the Canadian population does not benefit Buffalo stations is the (unless it changed in the las few months) Canadian tax la was that do not permit Canadian businesses to expense money spent on US radio and TV advertising. That increases the cost by an amount equal to the incremental tax rate on the expenditure.

As to international expansion, note how quickly the NFL cancelled the Mexico Cith (CDMX) game. Those single games are fine for the excitement factor but there is no huge fan base. Most of the attendees at the CDMX games have been local residents who went to college in the US, not enough to sustain a team week after week with a sport that is not mass appeal elsewhere.

The Rams vs Chiefs game was moved to LA because the field conditions in Mexico City were unplayable. The venue screwed up big time and the NFL dropped the ball by not monitoring the situation. They had to scramble to move it.

The NFL plays 3 or 4 games per year in London. They have indicated they want more. Teams relocate all the time. The Rams and Chargers recently moved to LA and the Raiders are going to Vegas. Buffalo is far from safe. They have no plans to build a Football Palace which is a huge revenue source. The small TV market doesn't help either...

 

[SirRoxalot]

A "football palace" is a revenue source for the owner, not the league. If the owner has an acceptable facility that meets league standards it's up to them to consider moving the team. The Pegulas hold that power and haven't made a peep about moving. In fact, quite the contrary. No place is safe, but Buffalo is more stable at the moment than several other teams. As far as international expansion is concerned, you can't refute time zones and logistics. Interest in the European league started by the NFL a few years ago did not exactly set the world on fire.

 

[Element9]

The Rams vs Chiefs game was moved to LA because the field conditions in Mexico City were unplayable. The venue screwed up big time and the NFL dropped the ball by not monitoring the situation. They had to scramble to move it.

The NFL plays 3 or 4 games per year in London. They have indicated they want more. Teams relocate all the time. The Rams and Chargers recently moved to LA and the Raiders are going to Vegas. Buffalo is far from safe. They have no plans to build a Football Palace which is a huge revenue source. The small TV market doesn't help either...

As it relates to radio market size and revenue (so as not to move this thread closer to take it outside oblivion) ...

It helps to understand what's going on in Buffalo.... the Pegula family owns the Buffalo Sabres AND the Buffalo Bills. It's akin to owning a successful radio cluster, in a way that some radio companies prefer to invest in small markets. The Pegulas have invested in Buffalo with real estate development and political capital. The Buffalo Bills aren't likely to move because they're part of a professional sports synergy, which also includes the Buffalo Bandits professional lacrosse franchise. They "have no plans" to build a new stadium at the moment because they're astutely evaluating the location options and bond options ... and the lease on the present stadium runs through 2022.

The Bills franchise isn't like the "move on a whim" Rams or Chargers, admittedly two teams doing far better in the W-L standings, or the Raiders, whose ownership has for years played LA and Las Vegas against Oakland. The Bills, although privately owned, are more like the Green Bay Packers, a "community trust." This is one reason Terry Pegula bought the Bills for $1.3 billion in cash, and the Sabres... and to make truckloads of money.

IF a new stadium is built, the Pegula sports-oil-business corporation has enough cash to build, own and operate it. They MAY get the land in which the stadium is built on the cheap. They very likely will receive investment credits or incentives, but they're more than capable of building a stadium on their own. Most likely, they'll partner with Erie County and New York State, but again, they have the cash on hand to get it done.

You almost have to live here to understand the dynamic of the community and the way the Pegula empire is structured with regard o the community, and making money by investing in the assets of the community. The Bills ain't goin' to London, Las Vegas (on which the Oakland Raiders have dibs), Toronto or San Diego.

Now, as to whom the Bills choose to affiliate with regard to the radio rights... it seems Entercom, with its sports background, will long have the inside track. Townsquare doesn't do sports and Cumulus is still treading water despite shedding a billion dollars in debt, crawling out from under the bankruptcy reorganization rock.

 

[four4rock]

As it relates to radio market size and revenue (so as not to move this thread closer to take it outside oblivion) ...

It helps to understand what's going on in Buffalo.... the Pegula family owns the Buffalo Sabres AND the Buffalo Bills. It's akin to owning a successful radio cluster, in a way that some radio companies prefer to invest in small markets. The Pegulas have invested in Buffalo with real estate development and political capital. The Buffalo Bills aren't likely to move because they're part of a professional sports synergy, which also includes the Buffalo Bandits professional lacrosse franchise. They "have no plans" to build a new stadium at the moment because they're astutely evaluating the location options and bond options ... and the lease on the present stadium runs through 2022.

The Bills franchise isn't like the "move on a whim" Rams or Chargers, admittedly two teams doing far better in the W-L standings, or the Raiders, whose ownership has for years played LA and Las Vegas against Oakland. The Bills, although privately owned, are more like the Green Bay Packers, a "community trust." This is one reason Terry Pegula bought the Bills for $1.3 billion in cash, and the Sabres... and to make truckloads of money.

IF a new stadium is built, the Pegula sports-oil-business corporation has enough cash to build, own and operate it. They MAY get the land in which the stadium is built on the cheap. They very likely will receive investment credits or incentives, but they're more than capable of building a stadium on their own. Most likely, they'll partner with Erie County and New York State, but again, they have the cash on hand to get it done.

You almost have to live here to understand the dynamic of the community and the way the Pegula empire is structured with regard o the community, and making money by investing in the assets of the community. The Bills ain't goin' to London, Las Vegas (on which the Oakland Raiders have dibs), Toronto or San Diego.

Now, as to whom the Bills choose to affiliate with regard to the radio rights... it seems Entercom, with its sports background, will long have the inside track. Townsquare doesn't do sports and Cumulus is still treading water despite shedding a billion dollars in debt, crawling out from under the bankruptcy reorganization rock.

All this brings me to wonder, were the bills to leave Buffalo, would there be a material financial impact to Buffalo media (in particular, radio). Y'know, do the Bills directly buy much radio time?... Or is there a second ring of Bills-related money that flows into radio?

 

[Buddy Shula]

All this brings me to wonder, were the bills to leave Buffalo, would there be a material financial impact to Buffalo media (in particular, radio). Y'know, do the Bills directly buy much radio time?... Or is there a second ring of Bills-related money that flows into radio?

.

The only radio this would affect is GR. otherwise, the Bills do not spend radio money. Only with their partners. Buffalo is a sports town first. If the Bills left, which they won’t, Buffalo would just route for another team. Having the Bills helps the local economy, but also hurts. Retail stores on lifeless on sundays as are car dealers. The Bills kill their business on a very important shopping day. I am one who feels the Bills are a drain on everything. I hope they don’t expect taxpayers to fund a new stadium. If so, as a taxpayer, I want a portion of the team profits

 

[Radio-Bored-Op]

While retail stores, such as Tops or Target are slower... they also accommodate shoppers who can walk, be on their phone, and review different prices in a calm atmosphere. In addition, if it is an away game, the dip in visitors may only be 2-3 hours.
As far as car dealerships, I am old school and surprised they are actually open.

 

[flybynight]

I think NFL fans will care as much about international play as NHL fans do (not incl Canada). Meaning: They WON'T. \

Also, what a PITA to have to fly to London for a game, especially a west coast team.

As far as the adjusted market rankings....
I know it's only ONE rank difference, but having Puerto Rico in the mix always bugged me.

 

[tbolt909]

A "football palace" is a revenue source for the owner, not the league. If the owner has an acceptable facility that meets league standards it's up to them to consider moving the team. The Pegulas hold that power and haven't made a peep about moving. In fact, quite the contrary. No place is safe, but Buffalo is more stable at the moment than several other teams. As far as international expansion is concerned, you can't refute time zones and logistics. Interest in the European league started by the NFL a few years ago did not exactly set the world on fire.

That's incorrect. The new football Palaces (Atlanta, Dallas, Minneapolis, etc..) generate huge money for the league, not just the owner. The NFL can easily apply pressure to Bills ownership. The reality is that the Bills have no national relevance. Dallas is a mediocre team, but they play in prime time games regularly. New England is also a ratings draw. The Bills have a local following, but are invisible elsewhere.

This thread was started to point out the declining market rank of Buffalo. As I said, the NFL gets this data. It's not certain that the Bills will be moved, but it could happen...