What format *should* KABC-790 have

[michael hagerty]

With the greatest respect, I'm not sure I would consider the audience small, unstable or dead.

KIXI-AM in Seattle, owned and operated by Hubbard manages to create an interesting blend of old school community focused programming.

Variety retro music. Local public service programming as well as syndicated. Some sports. A considerable amount of evening OTR programming. Sure the audience blend is older, but it has cache that does translate to revenue and community service. It pays dividends in my experience because it carries to the other stations in group and into the business community. Will it makes heaps of money on its own. No. But it will make money. Yes.

So it begs this question. More modern audio drama programming and comedy is surging on other platforms among younger demographics. Combined with contemporary music format aimed at younger demo, could you see the reset and the return full service modern variety station?


Also I do agree David Eduardo's observation that the demos of Los Angeles might require something more fitting and targeted. Thanks for discussion and raising the observation.

Jack: Well, my "small, unsalable and/or dead" comment was in response to a suggestion of OTR exclusively---Jack Benny, George Burns, Dragnet reruns and CBS Mystery Theater. The number of people under the age of 54 familiar with any of those is probably pretty small.

What I learned from programming an independent TV station 15 years ago was that certain things happen when you program material from before your intended target's time. Younger people will tune in, but only some of them, and never enough all at once or on a regular enough basis to create a reliably salable quarter-hour average in the demo. Dumping "My Three Sons" and "The Honeymooners" and picking up "Frasier" and "Seinfeld" did wonders.

Your point about modern audio drama and comedy programming is a good one---podcasts are definitely broadening the listening habits of today's younger adults. But---the economics of podcasts are such that two or three minutes of commercials is pretty much the norm for half an hour worth of programming. Take that to terrestrial radio and the commercial loads will necessarily be higher. Could it sustain its appeal? Especially with lower-commercial options immediately available on the listeners' phones?

 

[CTListener]

What I learned from programming an independent TV station 15 years ago was that certain things happen when you program material from before your intended target's time. Younger people will tune in, but only some of them, and never enough all at once or on a regular enough basis to create a reliably salable quarter-hour average in the demo. Dumping "My Three Sons" and "The Honeymooners" and picking up "Frasier" and "Seinfeld" did wonders.

I'm surprised you were still running "The Honeymooners" when "Frasier" and "Seinfeld" became available. Hadn't black-and-white shows been exiled to overnights or dropped completely by then in most places?

 

[michael hagerty]

I'm surprised you were still running "The Honeymooners" when "Frasier" and "Seinfeld" became available. Hadn't black-and-white shows been exiled to overnights or dropped completely by then in most places?

CTListener: This requires some background.

The station was a mom-and-pop licensed to Prescott, Arizona. The owners had a wonderful vision of community-oriented commercial television, but quickly found out how small the ad base was. They limped along for 20 years running hours of CNN Headline News and movies in the public domain from VHS machines.

In 2002, it was bought by a wealthy insurance company owner in Phoenix, who hired a GM with large-market (including Phoenix) experience, who obtained cable and satellite carriage throughout the Phoenix metro. Nielsen renamed the market Phoenix-Prescott. The station staff size doubled, with the original staff remaining in Prescott and the additional staff occupying new studios and offices in the insurance building in Phoenix. New equipment in both locations, new call letters and new imaging were part of the deal. I was hired to be the station voice and to produce and host a half-hour automotive magazine show that ran on Saturday mornings.

As for programming, they were starting from ground zero. Syndication tends to be sold a year in advance. They were changing format in a matter of months. So they bought the least-expensive shows per run that at the time weren't airing on another station in the market---"The Honeymooners", "The Andy Griffith Show", "I Love Lucy", "Gunsmoke", "Hogan's Heroes" and "Combat". Stuff that went for $50 to $80 a play. Top-flight syndication, if available, would have run more in the $500-$1500 a play range.

After a year and a half, the old PD was out and they asked me to take her place. I could see the problem---yes, younger people would watch all of those shows some of the time, but never enough or enough all at once. So I got a pledge that the owner would back me up with money for upgraded programming.

I got lucky. In the first month I was PD, Paramount called. The big independent was trying to cheap out on its renewal of "Frasier". We started a bidding war that we won, because the big guys didn't believe we were a serious threat. We did it again, about a month later, with a "Cheers" renewal that was coming up on another station. "M*A*S*H" followed that. And then "Married...With Children". After that, we won the initial bids for "According to Jim", "George Lopez" and "Seinfeld".

The station was barely making it with shows that cost less than $100 a play. It was very nicely profitable with shows that cost $1000 or more a play---because they delivered in the demo.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

EMF does not use AMs. If they get one in a deal for an FM, it is gone in a New York minute.

790 would be of value for a variety of foreign language formats, but not Spanish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Town,_Los_Angeles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Armenia,_Los_Angeles

Wouldn't Thai language programming or Armenian programming be on 790AM if that's the foreign language programming in the running if they were to take over that signal. I know you mentioned that KABC-AM does not do a good job in reaching San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, Inland Empire, Ventura and OC due to its protection of other stations on 790 AM in other places.


https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KABC&service=AM&h=D

https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KABC&service=AM&h=N

 

[radiocph]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Town,_Los_Angeles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Armenia,_Los_Angeles

Wouldn't Thai language programming or Armenian programming be on 790AM if that's the foreign language programming in the running if they were to take over that signal. I know you mentioned that KABC-AM does not do a good job in reaching San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, Inland Empire, Ventura and OC due to its protection of other stations on 790 AM in other places.

Thai, maybe. I don't know offhand how many Thai speakers there are in So. Cal. though.

There's a decent number of Armenian speakers, though most are in Glendale, a few in Pasadena, Burbank, or the SF Valley. Montebello as well....I wonder what kind of signal KABC has in those areas?

 

[davideduardo]

There's a decent number of Armenian speakers, though most are in Glendale, a few in Pasadena, Burbank, or the SF Valley. Montebello as well....I wonder what kind of signal KABC has in those areas?

The signal is decent in Pasadena, Burbank, Glendale and the eastern and central SF Valley.

 

[gr8oldies]

Very interesting story, and some parallels for those who insist they could get young people to listen to 50s-60s oldies. Maybe, but not for a significant length of time.

CTListener: This requires some background.

The station was a mom-and-pop licensed to Prescott, Arizona. The owners had a wonderful vision of community-oriented commercial television, but quickly found out how small the ad base was. They limped along for 20 years running hours of CNN Headline News and movies in the public domain from VHS machines.

In 2002, it was bought by a wealthy insurance company owner in Phoenix, who hired a GM with large-market (including Phoenix) experience, who obtained cable and satellite carriage throughout the Phoenix metro. Nielsen renamed the market Phoenix-Prescott. The station staff size doubled, with the original staff remaining in Prescott and the additional staff occupying new studios and offices in the insurance building in Phoenix. New equipment in both locations, new call letters and new imaging were part of the deal. I was hired to be the station voice and to produce and host a half-hour automotive magazine show that ran on Saturday mornings.

As for programming, they were starting from ground zero. Syndication tends to be sold a year in advance. They were changing format in a matter of months. So they bought the least-expensive shows per run that at the time weren't airing on another station in the market---"The Honeymooners", "The Andy Griffith Show", "I Love Lucy", "Gunsmoke", "Hogan's Heroes" and "Combat". Stuff that went for $50 to $80 a play. Top-flight syndication, if available, would have run more in the $500-$1500 a play range.

After a year and a half, the old PD was out and they asked me to take her place. I could see the problem---yes, younger people would watch all of those shows some of the time, but never enough or enough all at once. So I got a pledge that the owner would back me up with money for upgraded programming.

I got lucky. In the first month I was PD, Paramount called. The big independent was trying to cheap out on its renewal of "Frasier". We started a bidding war that we won, because the big guys didn't believe we were a serious threat. We did it again, about a month later, with a "Cheers" renewal that was coming up on another station. "M*A*S*H" followed that. And then "Married...With Children". After that, we won the initial bids for "According to Jim", "George Lopez" and "Seinfeld".

The station was barely making it with shows that cost less than $100 a play. It was very nicely profitable with shows that cost $1000 or more a play---because they delivered in the demo.

 

[gr8oldies]

Despite the speculation here, as long as Cumulus has guaranteed clearance in market #2 for their syndication, KABC isn't going foreign language

 

[CTListener]

Despite the speculation here, as long as Cumulus has guaranteed clearance in market #2 for their syndication, KABC isn't going foreign language

When does it start mattering to the advertisers who drool over the huge markets syndicated shows "deliver' that hardly anyone in those markets is listening?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

When does it start mattering to the advertisers who drool over the huge markets syndicated shows "deliver' that hardly anyone in those markets is listening?

GOOD point, I'll bet anyone in this forum if they asked everyone they know if they ever tune in and actually listen to a half hour or an hour of infomercial programming.... The answer is NO ONE. The sales people who "sell" this airtime are doing a bang up job haha. Is it just a tax write off for the companies who "advertise" this way?

 

[TheBigA]

When does it start mattering to the advertisers who drool over the huge markets syndicated shows "deliver' that hardly anyone in those markets is listening?

This question goes to the foundation of what advertisers are buying. Keep in mind that the Nielsen meters don't measure listening either.

GOOD point, I'll bet anyone in this forum if they asked everyone they know if they ever tune in and actually listen to a half hour or an hour of infomercial programming.... The answer is NO ONE.

Yet it's obvious based on the comments I read here that a lot of people are listening. Because they know a lot of details from those informercials.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I always felt that KABC was maximizing its ratings (given the basic format of conservative talk) when they had stronger local talent hosts such as Larry Elder, Dennis Prager and Al Rantel among others. Larry was clearly the star of the station holding down the afternoon drive slot and Dennis Prager was excellent counter-programming to Rush in the 9:00 am to 12:00 pm window - still very conservative, but in a completely different presentation style for those who may not like Rush's more bombastic style.

They let each of those guys go one by one in favor of lesser talents, some for national clearances as discussed, and the station feels like a shell of its former self. I am sure cost has something to do with it too - I always believed (without any way of actually knowing) that Larry's ratings were not commensurate with his well-negotiated salary, which is why he came and went a few times.

 

[TheBigA]

I always believed (without any way of actually knowing) that Larry's ratings were not commensurate with his well-negotiated salary, which is why he came and went a few times.

There are people who believe (often without actual statistics) that certain minorities are under-represented in the sample. Then again, there's another group who feel minorities are OVER represented. So it's just one of those things.

 

[davideduardo]

GOOD point, I'll bet anyone in this forum if they asked everyone they know if they ever tune in and actually listen to a half hour or an hour of infomercial programming.... The answer is NO ONE. The sales people who "sell" this airtime are doing a bang up job haha. Is it just a tax write off for the companies who "advertise" this way?

All business expenses are a "write off"... salaries, the light bill, insurance, advertising, cost of goods or services sold.

Generally, those infomercial accounts come to the station, not the other way around. Yes, a sales person is assigned to handle logistics and the like but in the case of larger stations it is not uncommon to have a waiting list for the few hours a week that they sell for that type of programming.

 

[michael hagerty]

GOOD point, I'll bet anyone in this forum if they asked everyone they know if they ever tune in and actually listen to a half hour or an hour of infomercial programming.... The answer is NO ONE. The sales people who "sell" this airtime are doing a bang up job haha. Is it just a tax write off for the companies who "advertise" this way?

We have covered this in other threads but not here.

SuperRadioFan: Most infomercials are what's called "Per Inquiry" (PI) advertising. The companies buying the time usually have a product or service that they give a phone number for. Often the phone number is unique to the station the infomercial is airing on. If not, the person who calls to inquire is asked what station they're hearing it on.

Let's say that's it's for a digestive product that costs $99 for a three-month supply. If they pay $250 for the half-hour of airtime, they only need to sell to three people to make a profit. So even a small number of responses----ten, 20---can create a very nice profit margin per broadcast for the advertiser and it provides revenue with very little expense against it for the broadcaster.

 

[CTListener]

We have covered this in other threads but not here.

SuperRadioFan: Most infomercials are what's called "Per Inquiry" (PI) advertising. The companies buying the time usually have a product or service that they give a phone number for. Often the phone number is unique to the station the infomercial is airing on. If not, the person who calls to inquire is asked what station they're hearing it on.

Let's say that's it's for a digestive product that costs $99 for a three-month supply. If they pay $250 for the half-hour of airtime, they only need to sell to three people to make a profit. So even a small number of responses----ten, 20---can create a very nice profit margin per broadcast for the advertiser and it provides revenue with very little expense against it for the broadcaster.

I'm not sure how this became a discussion of infomercials. I was wondering about the actual Cumulus-syndicated programming that advertisers irrationally salivate over when some slick talker tells them it's cleared in -- woohoo -- Los Angeles. Where it's on a station that hardly anyone listens too. This strikes me as stupidity, but I know advertising folks make big, big bucks, so what is the explanation -- not for the obsession with clearing major markets but for advertiers' apparent willingness to settle for minimal exposure in those markets?

 

[TheBigA]

I was wondering about the actual Cumulus-syndicated programming that advertisers irrationally salivate over when some slick talker tells them it's cleared in -- woohoo -- Los Angeles.

Depends on the advertiser. You will often see this in trade advertising where a certain show will say it's in 23 of the Top 25 markets. That's an indication of reach, which is one of the main selling points of national radio. The price will be based on AQH, which is an audience figure, so the .6 share in LA isn't helpful. But they don't necessarily see individual market stats. Instead they see a total number. There are certain markets that are targets for particular advertisers. Automotive usually wants a Detroit clear. In addition, for some advertisers, KABC has some heritage cache, even though the reality doesn't match the heritage. That applies to a lot of the former ABC AMs.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Depends on the advertiser. You will often see this in trade advertising where a certain show will say it's in 23 of the Top 25 markets. That's an indication of reach, which is one of the main selling points of national radio. The price will be based on AQH, which is an audience figure, so the .6 share in LA isn't helpful. But they don't necessarily see individual market stats. Instead they see a total number. There are certain markets that are targets for particular advertisers. Automotive usually wants a Detroit clear. In addition, for some advertisers, KABC has some heritage cache, even though the reality doesn't match the heritage. That applies to a lot of the former ABC AMs.

Without doubting your overall point which is well taken, I have to believe that the buyers who are buying KABC's "heritage cache" have got to be exceedingly minimal. If that is a criterion they are using, they simply cannot be maximizing the performance of their buys. Outside of Oldies and me, nobody cares about "heritage" any more. Millennials think that any year that doesn't start with a 20 is ancient history, and with each succeeding day that passes, more of them are in positions of power, influence, and purchasing decisions.

 

[TheBigA]

I have to believe that the buyers who are buying KABC's "heritage cache" have got to be exceedingly minimal.

I think you're right. However I noticed a press release announcing the debut of the Ben Shapiro show on KABC as though it was a big deal. I'm sure the vast majority of advertisers are simply looking at one number, which is the total number of impressions that they're buying. Maybe secondarily the number of Top 50 markets. Or percentage of the population reached. These are all numbers that are presented to national advertisers.

As an example, we can see that Premier thought it was very important to have an LA clearance for Rush, even if it wasn't on KFI. So they basically dedicated an AM station just to him and other syndicated shows, while reserving KFI for local talk. They have the same situation in several other markets, including Boston. So my point being having a presence in every market is important, even if many of those stations have few listeners.

 

[hotpatrick2004]

Ben i agree w him on politics but he is so boring. I liked him w brian on the answer. Kabc has conceded the entire show to kfi.Ben has no shot at competeing with john and ken.
#epicfail