"Country Music"

[CTListener]

And, as a yardstick to measure the public response to the Three Tenors, they appear at our local McCallum Theater annually. One show, 1600 people.

Who are touring as the Three Tenors these days? Pavarotti's been dead for several years. Are Domingo and Carreras still on the road every year? Pavarotti was the only one of the three who could even dream of filling a larger venue on his own, so I'm not surprised that they're playing small buildings now.

Of course, even at their peak, there's no way they'd be doing the business that top popular music acts do. There just aren't all that many fans of opera, and most stations that program classical music don't play it in regular rotation, instead limiting it to a performance from the Met on a weekend afternoon. The Tenors could add pyrotechnics, wardrobe changes, audience requests, comedy routines, and whatever else a top pop act brings to the stage to their show and still not sell 60,000 tickets.

 

[landtuna]

Not true. I've been to over a dozen Taylor shows, and you'd be surprised how many grandmas are in the audience. Yes, she has a lot of young fans, but they've grown in age with her, and they're now in their 20s & 30s. She does an amazing show, as does Carrie Underwood. They each attract far bigger audiences than Emmylou has ever experienced.

I won't disagree about the grandma's in the audience but.....

Yesterday I was online pursuing a rather long list of young females needing either foster care or adoption. A brief bio appeared with each one. Out of approximately 50 young ladies I would guess 30+ mentioned their favorite singer/performer was Taylor Swift. I realize this is anecdotal but there seems to be a pattern here. And who, these days, sends their teeny bopper daughters to a concert without adult supervision?

 

[landtuna]

And yet at the start of his career, he needed the aid of a comedian named Jerry Lewis, who added entertainment to a show that was mainly just singing.

Some people would call Lewis a comedian. I call him an extreme irritation.

In any event, you are correct in that Martin established himself as part of a duo, however he branched out (especially as a member of the Rat Pack) and made his own mark in the entertainment and movie industry.

Once again, we're talking about opinion, and we're talking about popular music. You want great singing? The Three Tenors is a good place to start.

Admittedly, TTT all had very powerful voices however their music was not the type that had mass appeal - except perhaps in Italy. Personally, opera hurts my ears. I would almost (I said ALMOST) listen to rap. (Oh wait....rap isn't music!)

 

[TheBigA]

And who, these days, sends their teeny bopper daughters to a concert without adult supervision?

What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying Emmylou Harris didn't have young fans in the 70s?

I'm sure there were kids with their parents at her concerts. But there are also older fans of hers who go to her shows for themselves.

You don't like TS. That's fine. But don't invent reasons to justify your opinion. It doesn't matter. People like what they like for whatever reasons. There are no rules or qualifications to sing country music. If you sing and attract an audience doing it, then that's what you do.

 

[landtuna]

What you're dealing in is subjective opinion, and in your subjective opinion, one makes better music than the other. But that's just you.

Of course it is. That's what we do here. Like cuisine and music everyone has their favs and tends to consider those people "better" than the others. You might sit down to a meal prepared by the most famous chef in the world but if he served you mushrooms and you didn't like mushrooms you most probably would not consider that meal an award winner.

Back to Taylor Swift. I am not a fan. No surprise there. But the opinion I stated concerning her singing/songwriting abilities I borrowed from others in the music industry who have a far wider exposure than I.

As far as drawing a crowd.....the WWE isn't doing too badly. It's not hard to draw a crowd. Especially a teen crowd.

 

[TheBigA]

Back to Taylor Swift. I am not a fan. No surprise there. But the opinion I stated concerning her singing/songwriting abilities I borrowed from others in the music industry who have a far wider exposure than I.

Everybody has haters, including her. Everyone wants to justify their opinion. But none of it matters. She sings, she writes, she attracts a large audience, and she has won the CMA's Entertainer of the Year twice. She has won a bunch of Grammy awards. Those awards are given by the industry, not fans. So yes, some in the industry roll their eyes. Back in the 70s, there were those who felt John Denver wasn't country, and that it was a crime that he won the CMA Entertainer of the Year. But he did. And yes, pro wrestling attracts a crowd even though critics say it's fake and not a sport. The people who attend don't care. There are no absolutes.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Once could say the same thing about Waylon and Kristofferson. Neither of them come close to someone like Jim Reeves, but Jim never received any of the acclaim or fame that Waylon or Kristofferson received. There are singers, and there are stylists. For years, critics said Tim McGraw couldn't sing unaided. It really doesn't matter to him or his fans.

Agree about Kristofferson, never heard anything wrong with Waylon's singing.

I'm not a Tim McGraw fan. What I like of his depends on the individual song.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Some people would call Lewis a comedian. I call him an extreme irritation.

In any event, you are correct in that Martin established himself as part of a duo, however he branched out (especially as a member of the Rat Pack) and made his own mark in the entertainment and movie industry.

I like both Martin and Lewis. Several years ago, TV stations I watch were showing Lewis' movies. Lewis to me is very funny, and "The Nutty Professor" proved he could act and not just be funny. I've seen Martin act too. He's pretty good. But I really like him as a singer.

Admittedly, TTT all had very powerful voices however their music was not the type that had mass appeal - except perhaps in Italy. Personally, opera hurts my ears. I would almost (I said ALMOST) listen to rap. (Oh wait....rap isn't music!)

Yeah, opera doesn't appeal to me but for The Three Tenors I can make an exception, either as individuals or together.

Getting back to Ken Burns, his series said Garrison Keillor covered the final Opry show at the Ryman. Nothing was said about what resulted from that but I think we can guess.

And I came home to find my radio still on from when I listened to "Wait! Wait!" and the show that was once called "A Prairie Home Companion" was playing RAP. Both shows have Sunday encores on WFAE.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Not true. I've been to over a dozen Taylor shows, and you'd be surprised how many grandmas are in the audience. Yes, she has a lot of young fans, but they've grown in age with her, and they're now in their 20s & 30s. She does an amazing show, as does Carrie Underwood. They each attract far bigger audiences than Emmylou has ever experienced.

I wouldn't doubt it. I do find Taylor's personality appealing as long as she's not attacking former boyfriends.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I have no idea what Taylor Swift does on stage nor Madonna before her. I was considering singing talent only. I personally am much more comfortable with singers/performers like John Denver, the aforementioned EmmyLou, Dolly Parton and Don Williams. Going back a few years I would say Jim Reeves, Johnny Mathis, Patsy Cline, Nat King Cole and even some rock and rollers like Gary Puckett and Brenda Lee.

I put Swift in the same class as Frank Sinatra. People, especially young people, loved him/them although god knows why. Dean Martin had a far better voice, was a better actor and had a far better stage presence (IMHO of course). Martin could carry a show by himself. Sinatra needed a very loud backing band and a group of hipsters to keep the show going.

Everything I've read (and it isn't a huge amount) from people who should know say Swift is not that good a singer. I agree and find her lyrics childish. Other people may pay big money to go watch her in concert. Takes all kinds.

I agree with pretty much all of this, except I don't see why some people say Sinatra can't sing that well. And whenever he has one that band is great. Also, when Madonna is not doing cutesy pop she does have a really good voice. I'm thinking of "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina". And she doesn't sound cutesy (most of the time) on "Take a Bow".

 

[TheBigA]

Getting back to Ken Burns, his series said Garrison Keillor covered the final Opry show at the Ryman. Nothing was said about what resulted from that but I think we can guess.

Hmmmm, you might have that wrong. The final Opry show at the Ryman was in 1974, before Keillor's show began. Every year, the Opry moves back to the Ryman for a few months in the winter, and Keillor has been a guest there during that time. Keillor has also performed several times at the Ryman, both with PRC and by himself.

The fact is that PRC was based on the Opry concept, with a wide range of performers and live commercials read from the stage.

 

[TheBigA]

Getting back to Ken Burns, his series said Garrison Keillor covered the final Opry show at the Ryman. Nothing was said about what resulted from that but I think we can guess.

UPDATE: I now see what you meant by "covered the final Opry show." Yes, Garrison attended the final Opry show at the Ryman in March 1974. He was writing an article for the New Yorker magazine. He was doing a local radio show in St. Paul at that time, but it wasn't PHC. In July 1974, he debuted a local version of PHC. It didn't go national until 8 years later.

 

[landtuna]

What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying Emmylou Harris didn't have young fans in the 70s?

Not at all. I was a young fan in the 70's and have stayed one throughout her career.

I'm sure there were kids with their parents at her concerts. But there are also older fans of hers who go to her shows for themselves.

Too long ago. I don't remember. More females than males I think. And yes, I am now an older fan and still go to her shows. As she has aged so have her fans (at concerts anyway). That seems normal. Whether TS will have a career as lengthy and successful as EmmyLou is anyone's guess. My guess would be that she won't be remembered in 40 years.

You don't like TS. That's fine. But don't invent reasons to justify your opinion. It doesn't matter. People like what they like for whatever reasons. There are no rules or qualifications to sing country music. If you sing and attract an audience doing it, then that's what you do.

I don't like or dislike TS. I don't know her. I'm just talking about her singing and don't think she is worth the adulation given her. And I don't have to justify my opinion, just as no one else does either. Your opinion is what it is. I said it took all kinds and I don't think anyone would argue with that. There are many thousands, perhaps millions of people who can sing, some much better than others. Some get popular for other reasons.

 

[TheBigA]

Whether TS will have a career as lengthy and successful as EmmyLou is anyone's guess. My guess would be that she won't be remembered in 40 years.

If longevity has meaning, then Sinatra was successful. But you say he's over-rated. So does longevity matter?

 

[landtuna]

Everybody has haters, including her. Everyone wants to justify their opinion. But none of it matters. She sings, she writes, she attracts a large audience, and she has won the CMA's Entertainer of the Year twice. She has won a bunch of Grammy awards. Those awards are given by the industry, not fans. So yes, some in the industry roll their eyes. Back in the 70s, there were those who felt John Denver wasn't country, and that it was a crime that he won the CMA Entertainer of the Year. But he did. And yes, pro wrestling attracts a crowd even though critics say it's fake and not a sport. The people who attend don't care. There are no absolutes.

When someone like me indicates they think someone is not as good as someone else why is it we are then described as "haters". I'm not a hater. All I ever said was that IMHO she is not as good as some others and the majority of her fans are young, immature music people. When I was young the same thing happened with so-called "teen idols".

As for industry voters, they vote where the money is. Their jobs depend upon it and they have a significant vested interest in pushing the "latest" and "greatest" according to themselves.

It is always easier to root for the home team.

As for pro wrestling, I remember back in the late 60's there was a local TV show which was nothing more than a commercial for the Saturday evening rastlin' matches. Almost every show there was a little old lady sitting in the front row of the studio spectators who would get more and more agitated and finally pick up her folding chair and try to bash the "good guy" with it. It never failed to inflame the crowd into a frenzy and, I'm sure, filled seats for that night's show. Although a number of those wrestlers were genuine athletes, this was pure entertainment of the most basic kind and no one, except the promoter, would call it a sport. My neighbor would swear it was for real. Takes all kinds.

 

[davideduardo]

When someone like me indicates they think someone is not as good as someone else why is it we are then described as "haters". I'm not a hater. All I ever said was that IMHO she is not as good as some others and the majority of her fans are young, immature music people. When I was young the same thing happened with so-called "teen idols".

The thing I think has been objected to is the idea that Taylor Swift only appeals to teens. As a country artist, her appeal was predominantly adult, just as the country format is an adult format.

When she moved over to pop (using the very adult reasoning that pop is vastly more international than country) the audience changed to that of CHR music: predominantly 18 to 44 year old women.

While teens may like her a lot, in both areas of her career, the audience that pays the bills is adult.

 

[TheBigA]

As for industry voters, they vote where the money is. Their jobs depend upon it and they have a significant vested interest in pushing the "latest" and "greatest" according to themselves.

You said you came upon the view that she couldn't sing from people in the industry.

But the opinion I stated concerning her singing/songwriting abilities I borrowed from others in the music industry who have a far wider exposure than I.

So which is it? Do people in the industry believe she can't sing, or follow the money? It can't be both.

 

[CTListener]

When someone like me indicates they think someone is not as good as someone else why is it we are then described as "haters". I'm not a hater. All I ever said was that IMHO she is not as good as some others and the majority of her fans are young, immature music people. When I was young the same thing happened with so-called "teen idols"..

Some teen idols faded away (Fabian). Others matured musically and continued to have success (Ricky Nelson). Swift's early country hits were written from the viewpoint of a 15-or-16-year-old girl, which is what she was at the time. She's in her late 20s now, has been in and out of relationships and now writes songs reflecting that point of view. I'm not a big fan of the kind of pop she's creating, from a melodic standpoint, but I always found her precocious and creative lyrically during her country years . "You made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter" (from "Mine") was a near-perfect line then, would still be a perfect line now, and would have been a perfect line had Goffin and King written it in the Brill Building back in the '60s. Her lyrics now show that her skills have not atrophied or stagnated since she went pop. That moms and grandmothers still like her today is to me an indication that people won't forget her as years go by.

 

[davideduardo]

Too long ago. I don't remember. More females than males I think. And yes, I am now an older fan and still go to her shows. As she has aged so have her fans (at concerts anyway). That seems normal. Whether TS will have a career as lengthy and successful as EmmyLou is anyone's guess. My guess would be that she won't be remembered in 40 years..

If you look at the concert dates for the last few years for Emmylou Harris, you see mostly "small" venues of a couple of thousand. Here LA dates are at a 3,000 capacity venue and she is only doing two shows because it's a multi-talent ticked which James Taylor, Chris Christoferson and a number of others.

Looking at Swift's 2018 concert tour, on 53 dates she sold $345 million in tickets for the most successful female tour ever.

At the same time, Emmylou Harris was playing some resort showroom in the Dominican Republic.

Harris is estimated to be worth around $15 million, while Swift is worth about $400 million. Harris is reported to have sold about 5 million "units" while Swift is at 121 million units.

As two who has had the more successful career, it is obviously Taylor Swift. As to longevity, the peak years for Harris as a recording artist were the mid-70's to the late 80's, about 15 years. Swift is going strong at 14 years right now.

 

[landtuna]

If you look at the concert dates for the last few years for Emmylou Harris, you see mostly "small" venues of a couple of thousand. Here LA dates are at a 3,000 capacity venue and she is only doing two shows because it's a multi-talent ticked which James Taylor, Chris Christoferson and a number of others.

Looking at Swift's 2018 concert tour, on 53 dates she sold $345 million in tickets for the most successful female tour ever.

At the same time, Emmylou Harris was playing some resort showroom in the Dominican Republic.

Harris is estimated to be worth around $15 million, while Swift is worth about $400 million. Harris is reported to have sold about 5 million "units" while Swift is at 121 million units.

As two who has had the more successful career, it is obviously Taylor Swift. As to longevity, the peak years for Harris as a recording artist were the mid-70's to the late 80's, about 15 years. Swift is going strong at 14 years right now.

Either you or Big A said a day or so ago that the "experience" is more than just music. This explains in part why the majority of Swift's fans tend to be on the younger side. She was and continues to be a teen idol for women. Younger concert goers have been well known to consider performances to be a huge par-tay complete with entertainment in the seats as well as on the stage....and the bigger the better. Although Country concerts can get rowdy I have never experienced that type of behavior at any concert by Denver, EmmyLou or Don Williams (for example). I am excluding Willie and Johnny Cash for obvious reasons here.

If success were just measured in dollars Swift's career would be well under some well known drug dealers. I don't measure talent based upon the revenue they produce as there are other important facets to a performer's persona and performance. EmmyLou does not necessarily sing the songs that would appeal to sex-starved attention-seeking young females therefore it would be expected that her audiences would be smaller. That has absolutely nothing to do with their respective talents.

In any case, both you and Big A are part and parcel of the music business, if not directly then as members of the broadcasting industry which has a long partnership with music. I would expect your opinions to be colored in support of the people who earn the big bucks for the biz. I am not criticizing either of you for that, merely stating the obvious. It's tough to be impartial when someone is buttering your bread. Perfectly natural.