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Seacrest Out



I'd love to know about any station that sells anything at all in overnights. Most stations bill $0 in that period, so barter is an option. However, the principal bartered overnight shows take some daytime inventory for the deal.

And few stations bill significantly after 7 PM. Those are mostly bonus spots you hear if you hear any at all.

I'm guessing that your radio background does not include any sales experience.

There was a time when overnights were considered a lead-in for morning drive, and the last couple of hours may have had enough income to pay an overnight jock and still make a profit. Of course, that was a long time ago when there were recognizable overnight personalities and sponsors that pursued their audiences. You've probably heard of Alison Steele. Locally there were a handful of overnight people who had a handful of steady sponsors.

The evening show is more likely to run 6-10 PM these days. Locally, at least a couple of stations are live and are running enough commercials to be in the black.

There are times when a spreadsheet doesn't count all of the profit. If the money is equal - or even close - keeping the money in the local economy and the goodwill of advertisers and listeners provides a lot more benefit than a spreadsheet accounts for. The corporate radio idea that a "national talent" deigns to bless us with their "quality broadcast" is overblown. From a corporate standpoint, paying somebody with a fat contract to localize some liners so they can syndicate the show looks like a deal. From a local standpoint, giving up avails and/or cluttering stopsets with additional inventory may not make it such a great deal.

I look at radio from a much bigger perspective than "just sales" or "just programming" or "just management". You need to look at it all holistically - including the community you're in - to get a real picture of what's in the best interest of the long-term viability of the enterprise.
 
You've probably heard of Alison Steele.

Yes she did overnights for 3 years in the late 60s as WNEW-FM was getting started. In 1971 she took over the 10PM to 2AM slot, which she held for most of her career. Even in the 70s, when night radio had more audience, she didn't have a lot of exclusive sponsors. Most of the ads were scatter from other times of day.

But sure at one time, there was some money in night radio. Larry King began as a midnight to 6 syndicated host. By the late 80s, he moved his show to 10PM because pre-midnight spots made more money than post-midnight. By the early 90s, late night advertising was really disappearing, and soon Larry gave up the late night radio shift to focus on CNN. The competition of 300 channels of TV has really hurt fringe time on radio.
 
Seacrest wasn't just carried fro the bird

Ryan Seacrest was not like your typical syndicated show carried live off satellite like Tesh or Delilah, the elements had to be edited prior to broadcast - delivered to the stations via FTP. This required a person to cut and splice (digitally) before import into the automation, previously AudioVault and now Wide Orbit. This required a seasoned broadcast pro and dedicated prod room to make happen.
 
This required a person to cut and splice (digitally) before import into the automation, previously AudioVault and now Wide Orbit. This required a seasoned broadcast pro and dedicated prod room to make happen.

You're making this sound a lot more difficult than it is. It can be automated pretty easily. We're talking about iHeart. They're not going to deliver something to their stations that requires skilled employees.
 
You're making this sound a lot more difficult than it is. It can be automated pretty easily. We're talking about iHeart. They're not going to deliver something to their stations that requires skilled employees.

Syndicated shows often offer the option to localize content, which is what WKSE/Entercom did when I worked there. Yes, you can simply automate and use SAT closure #2 to insert [your calls] with no human interaction needed. Same goes for Tesh and Delilah, which I handled the technical end at my various stations.
 


There was a time when overnights were considered a lead-in for morning drive, and the last couple of hours may have had enough income to pay an overnight jock and still make a profit. Of course, that was a long time ago when there were recognizable overnight personalities and sponsors that pursued their audiences. You've probably heard of Alison Steele. Locally there were a handful of overnight people who had a handful of steady sponsors.


If you look back to the late 50's and 60's, operating in overnights was relatively uncommon. But those of us who owned and operated stations back then grew tired of the transmitters and gear failing to turn on at 6 AM at the start of morning drive. So we found it better, cheaper and safer to operate 24/7, with maybe a few hours for maintenance early Sunday or Monday morning.

I've never been with or known of a station that billed anything significant in overnights. But the security back when equipment was less reliable was worth it. And then equipment got better, we got automation and we still found it was easier to have something on the air overnights.

It wasn't as if there ever was much money to be made in overnights.

The evening show is more likely to run 6-10 PM these days. Locally, at least a couple of stations are live and are running enough commercials to be in the black.

But only a tiny percentage of revenue is produced at night, and that is where listening has decline the most in the PPM era.

And it is the hidden little fact that the PPM is the reason evening/night listening is so low... listening incidents when precisely measured are much short than what people would write down in the diaries.

There are times when a spreadsheet doesn't count all of the profit. If the money is equal - or even close - keeping the money in the local economy and the goodwill of advertisers and listeners provides a lot more benefit than a spreadsheet accounts for. The corporate radio idea that a "national talent" deigns to bless us with their "quality broadcast" is overblown.

No, it's not. With the exception of music station morning shows and specific talk station hosts, advertisers do not dig that deep into the particulars of radio. To them, a "national star" is better than a local host, daytime is better than nights, and with direct accounts, stations they like are better than ones they don't like.

Advertisers talk about traffic, about ups in a dealership, about calls in a service business. They don't give a flying flamingo about who does 7 to midnight and whether they are in town or in Hollywood.

As I said, you have not been in sales... quite obviously.

From a corporate standpoint, paying somebody with a fat contract to localize some liners so they can syndicate the show looks like a deal. From a local standpoint, giving up avails and/or cluttering stopsets with additional inventory may not make it such a great deal.

But you are not counting the other benefits... no HR issues, no vacations to fill, no requests for raises, no additional work for the PD for a low, low revenue daypart.

I look at radio from a much bigger perspective than "just sales" or "just programming" or "just management". You need to look at it all holistically - including the community you're in - to get a real picture of what's in the best interest of the long-term viability of the enterprise.

But without the sales aspect, the enterprise... no matter how great the programming... will fail.
 
Quite obviously your sales experience is based transactional selling rather than relationship selling. The products or services sold at night - and the rate card - are significantly different than other dayparts. Advertisers give a flying fig about results, and we have stations in town that have live bodies at night because they get results. It's may only be a few stations, but those numbers - both for audience and revenue - matter. When you look at sports content, those numbers are significant, particularly in a town where people work second and third shift or aren't tied to video.

When I said that one spot per hour would cover the cost of a jock at most Buffalo stations I included the cost of benefits. As far as additional work for the PD is concerned, there isn't much. Very few PDs coach talent these days. Additional work from the talent - including replacing some of the duties of lost production personnel and minding those pesky public affairs duties - also offset the rare HR issues. Plugging in a part-timer at minimum wage to fill that two weeks of vacation ain't exactly a costly chore.

The revenue may be low, but its more than other stations are getting with barter and giving up avails.

It won't work for every station. It won't move the needle for those that engage in "background music" formats. For those with programming that's does a better job of building relationships with listeners and advertisers it has value.

You have a "big picture one-size-fits-all" approach to everything radio. There are exceptions, and some of them are quite profitable. Look at what Jerry Lee did with WBEB in Philly, defying many of the tenets of corporate radio until he made the fatal corporate mistake - overpaying for half the station when his original partner passed because the corporates bid the value beyond what was sustainable.

There are exceptions here in WNY, too, that have survived multiple changes in corporate ownership. The numbers must work since they've gotten past corporate sales-focused management like you.
 

...

It wasn't as if there ever was much money to be made in overnights

...

Honestly, I don't get the whole 'branded' personality syndication thing. From those to which I've listened - admittedly, few and far between - they've been very ho-hum. Years ago, i enjoyed a financial thing by Bruce Williams, but that's about it... is he still around? But, even stuff that is presumably in my circle of interest, fell flat with syndicated shows. For example, and with all due respect, even Kingsley's country countdown didn't draw my ear. As for Ryan Seacrest... didn't even know he was still relevant since American Idol ran its course.

With respect to overnight value, I'm really surprised about that. In today's North American culture (i.e. more & more people working non-traditional hours), it'd seem that the wee hours could grab people moreso now than in years past. Wasn't there some freaky psychic/UFO thing that used to air in the dark a while ago that was supposed to be quite popular(?).
 
Honestly, I don't get the whole 'branded' personality syndication thing. From those to which I've listened - admittedly, few and far between - they've been very ho-hum. Years ago, i enjoyed a financial thing by Bruce Williams, but that's about it... is he still around? But, even stuff that is presumably in my circle of interest, fell flat with syndicated shows. For example, and with all due respect, even Kingsley's country countdown didn't draw my ear. As for Ryan Seacrest... didn't even know he was still relevant since American Idol ran its course.

There are many good to great morning shows in syndication, with ones like Brooke and Jubal gaining affiliates and audience constantly. Syndication is, of course, a remake of the old radio network model and, more recently, the TV model where there is essentially no local entertainment programming and everything is networked or syndicated.

With respect to overnight value, I'm really surprised about that. In today's North American culture (i.e. more & more people working non-traditional hours), it'd seem that the wee hours could grab people moreso now than in years past. Wasn't there some freaky psychic/UFO thing that used to air in the dark a while ago that was supposed to be quite popular(?).

The Art Bell / Coast to Coast phenomenon continues to rack up good shares in overnights, and is on something like 600 stations. But a 6 share in overnights is like a 0.4 share in the daytime in terms of actual listeners.

To even find the overnight ratings in Nielsen, one has to do a "custom report" for a daypart you create... Midnight to 5 AM or Midnight to 6 AM and set the ages and other filters.

In other words, there is so little demand for overnight numbers that there is no standard table for that daypart.
 
Very few PDs coach talent these days. Additional work from the talent - including replacing some of the duties of lost production personnel and minding those pesky public affairs duties - also offset the rare HR issues. Plugging in a part-timer at minimum wage to fill that two weeks of vacation ain't exactly a costly chore.

There's an entire business of talent coaching now that didn't exist 30 years ago. Highly experienced specialists who know how to get the best from talent, and prepare them for their newly expanded role of personality and social representative. There are monthly talent coaching events around the country, for networking and job search. If you're in country format, there's the Country Radio Seminar in Nashville that has 3 days of talent coaching. There's the Morning Show Bootcamp. There are lots of opportunities for on-air talent to learn more about what they do from people who really know.
 
Quite obviously your sales experience is based transactional selling rather than relationship selling. The products or services sold at night - and the rate card - are significantly different than other dayparts. Advertisers give a flying fig about results, and we have stations in town that have live bodies at night because they get results. It's may only be a few stations, but those numbers - both for audience and revenue - matter. When you look at sports content, those numbers are significant, particularly in a town where people work second and third shift or aren't tied to video.


Wrong. I have sold in markets as diverse as Lake City and Tallahassee, FL, to Caguas and Mayaguez, PR, where nearly all revenue is local (100% in Lake City). Relationship selling depends on gaining the trust and confidence of an advertiser and creating a schedule that works for them.

Most clients don't want to run a schedule after the business is closed. "After all, everyone is watching TV at night". They want mornings (when they listen, too) and during store hours. They don't want Sundays very much, never want overnights (They are sleeping when I am open) and shun evenings.

Usually, those direct account spots that you hear in the evening are "can I supersize your order" ones that are bonus or "get evenings for just an extra $100 a week" type deals.

When I said that one spot per hour would cover the cost of a jock at most Buffalo stations I included the cost of benefits. As far as additional work for the PD is concerned, there isn't much. Very few PDs coach talent these days. Additional work from the talent - including replacing some of the duties of lost production personnel and minding those pesky public affairs duties - also offset the rare HR issues. Plugging in a part-timer at minimum wage to fill that two weeks of vacation ain't exactly a costly chore.

Night spots at a couple of bucks each are not going to pay salaries, insurance, vacation time and vacation fill staffing, sick days, workman's comp and all the rest. Most groups are centralizing copywriting and production, so having no production done at even larger market stations is not uncommon. Public affairs would not be done, as a rule, by a night jock or overnight jock.

The revenue may be low, but its more than other stations are getting with barter and giving up avails.

Considering that stations are seldom anywhere near sell-out in evenings and overnights, giving a couple of spots an hour is not a problem if the show satisfies the needs for something that fits the format and will attract whatever available listeners there are.

You have a "big picture one-size-fits-all" approach to everything radio. There are exceptions, and some of them are quite profitable. Look at what Jerry Lee did with WBEB in Philly, defying many of the tenets of corporate radio until he made the fatal corporate mistake - overpaying for half the station when his original partner passed because the corporates bid the value beyond what was sustainable.

Jerry Lee's station was unique in that it was better managed than most and relied on much more research in programming and in advertiser effectiveness that any other station in the US. Lee did not defy any "tenets". He simply did things better, particularly in the area of finding out how to make ads work for clients. Other than that, his was simply a well run beautiful music station that morphed into an AC station.

Every market is different. I have worked in a very, very large market where ads are sold by the second, and a stopset might have 20 units, with ads from 4 seconds up to as much as 30 seconds in length. I have worked in a market where there is a drive time at 2 AM, and everything in between. But that does not mean that there are certain truths that operate everywhere. Among them is that "live and local" is only a radio person's excuse.

There are exceptions here in WNY, too, that have survived multiple changes in corporate ownership. The numbers must work since they've gotten past corporate sales-focused management like you.
[/QUOTE]
 
Ryan Seacrest was not like your typical syndicated show carried live off satellite like Tesh or Delilah, the elements had to be edited prior to broadcast - delivered to the stations via FTP. This required a person to cut and splice (digitally) before import into the automation, previously AudioVault and now Wide Orbit. This required a seasoned broadcast pro and dedicated prod room to make happen.

Delilah and Tesh are both delivered via FTP to stations. The station inserts their breaks into the music playlist.
I know this because I had set up the automation at a station group to insert the voice tracks.
 
Delilah and Tesh are both delivered via FTP to stations. The station inserts their breaks into the music playlist.
I know this because I had set up the automation at a station group to insert the voice tracks.

Many shows today are delivered in "kibbles and bits" workparts which are assembled at the station to work within the local station formatics. That allows for variable stopset length, service elements, imaging and the local music playlist to be maintained while the show elements are inserted just like songs into the format.

Many of the TV news network opinion shows are also done this way, with the host presenting the show and signing it off and lots of pre-produced segments inserted in the rest of the show, along with some live segments.
 
As for Ryan Seacrest... didn't even know he was still relevant since American Idol ran its course.

#2 daytime syndicated TV show, with Kelly Ripa, after Dr Phil and generally a bit ahead of Ellen. Totally relevant.

From Broadway World https://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwtv...Week-in-Households-and-Total-Viewers-20191001

"During the week of Sept. 16, 2019, "Live with Kelly and Ryan" posted gains over the prior week in both Households (+5% - 2.0 rating vs. 1.9 rating) and Total Viewers (+5% - 2.652 million vs. 2.535 million), while holding steady in Women 25-54 (0.9 rating). The program notched its best performance with Households and Total Viewers since the week of June 16, 2019.

"Live with Kelly and Ryan" outdelivered "Ellen" to rank as the week's No. 2 Syndicated talk show in Households (+11% - 2.0 rating vs. 1.8 rating), Total Viewers (+6% - 2.652 million vs. 2.504 million) and Women 25-54 (+13% - 0.9 rating vs. 0.8 rating), behind only "Dr. Phil."

 
i enjoyed a financial thing by Bruce Williams, but that's about it... is he still around?

He died earlier this year.

As for Ryan Seacrest... didn't even know he was still relevant since American Idol ran its course.

FYI American Idol will launch Season 3 of the reboot in January. Seacrest still hosts. He also does morning drive on KIIS in LA. He also hosts the annual New Year's Rockin' Eve on ABC, in addition to co-hosting Kelly & Ryan.
 
Thanks to DavidEduardo and TheBigA for clarification about Ryan Seacrest's popularity. i'm not above acknowledging my apparent ignorance or out-of-touch-ness with pop culture (in some facets, at least). Apparently, whomever has handled his branding is pretty darn good.

Kinda off-topic... but still Seacrest focused... who (what firm/person) did/does his personal branding?

Sorry to hear of Bruce Williams' passing.
 
Kinda off-topic... but still Seacrest focused... who (what firm/person) did/does his personal branding?

Seacrest worked his way up from being a jock in Atlanta to PM drive at "Alternative AC" KYSR in LA to the KIIS gig, the Dick Clark association and then Idol and Kelly & Ryan.

He is an entrepreneur with production companies and brand extensions. Most of his "brand" has come from hard work and his own initiative. Sure, he has an agent and a support staff but we have to give most of the credit to Seacrest himself.
 


Seacrest worked his way up from being a jock in Atlanta to PM drive at "Alternative AC" KYSR in LA to the KIIS gig, the Dick Clark association and then Idol and Kelly & Ryan.

He is an entrepreneur with production companies and brand extensions. Most of his "brand" has come from hard work and his own initiative. Sure, he has an agent and a support staff but we have to give most of the credit to Seacrest himself.


"worked his way up from Atlanta".. you have to work your way up from elsewhere to get to atlanta

i am not a seacrest fan at all but im not the target audience at all
 
"worked his way up from Atlanta".. you have to work your way up from elsewhere to get to atlanta

i am not a seacrest fan at all but im not the target audience at all

Seacrest is from Atlanta, and he did a high school internship at Star there... and ended up being the weekend overnight guy. He worked while in college in Athens, then dropped out and went to LA where he appeared at the newly formatted Star 98.7 in PM drive.

"Back in the day" (to use a now well hackneyed phrase), lots of us got menial or off-hours jobs as teens at larger market stations, often beginning as radio groupies and then go-fers... learning the board and finally cracking the mike. Seacrest just did it bigger and better than most.
 
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