Transmitter issues in the Seattle area

[installLSC]

While listening to Jack 96.5 today, I heard a notice (in traditional Jack sardonic style) that the signal might be having issues over the next month and that listeners should consider the Iheart app as a solution. What signal issues are they talking about? Have any other stations had issues?

 

[localwatcher]

As a matter of fact, in the last month (three different times) when I traveled between the south end of King Co and South Snohomish Co, I noticed that signals for many radio stations seemed to have a weaker signal than usual. Meaning it didn’t have that clear sound. There were a couple of exceptions. This is coming from a non-HD radio.

 

[Kelly A]

What signal issues are they talking about?

Remember last year when the West Tiger Mt. multi-station antenna burned up (literally)? Those particular stations have been running on a temporary antenna from WTM. Now that the weather is cooperating, the temporary antenna is being replaced with a new permanent one. Some stations like 96.5 have lower power auxiliary transmission facilities on Cougar Mt., which they will be running from until the antenna work is completed on WTM.

 

[Kelly A]

As a matter of fact, in the last month (three different times) when I traveled between the south end of King Co and South Snohomish Co, I noticed that signals for many radio stations seemed to have a weaker signal than usual. Meaning it didn’t have that clear sound. There were a couple of exceptions. This is coming from a non-HD radio.

Those may be stations from West Tiger Mt. See my post above.

 

[bobdavcav]

I also noticed that shortly after the fire, KJAQ applied for a power increase from 49 kw to 70 kw. I'm guessing that that will happen as a result of the repairs.

 

[e-dawg]

I wonder if KUBE, KJR-FM, and KPLZ can move to West Tiger Mountain instead of Cougar Mountain?

 

[Kelly A]

I wonder if KUBE, KJR-FM, and KPLZ can move to West Tiger Mountain instead of Cougar Mountain?

Yes, but there is no reason to. Those stations are in a long term lease with a really good master antenna on Cougar Mt. Sure, WTM has better coverage outside of the Seattle-Tacoma market, but who cares? Cougar Mt. has less holes in coverage within the market, and because it's 8 miles closer to Downtown Seattle, much better building penetration and superior look angle to I-5 and I-405.

 

[fordranger797]

Here's a question for the experts: Why does anyone use Tiger in the first place? Although higher, Tiger is much harder to access during the winter season, therefore engineers have a more difficult (and longer) day at the job site. In most of the metropolitan area, I really haven't noticed much of a difference between a Cougar signal or a Tiger signal, so it seems like it would make the most economical sense to have the transmitter equipment at a site that is much easier to access, less susceptible to outages, and eliminates most of the seasonal snow issues.

 

[Kelly A]

Here's a question for the experts: Why does anyone use Tiger in the first place? Although higher, Tiger is much harder to access during the winter season, therefore engineers have a more difficult (and longer) day at the job site. In most of the metropolitan area, I really haven't noticed much of a difference between a Cougar signal or a Tiger signal, so it seems like it would make the most economical sense to have the transmitter equipment at a site that is much easier to access, less susceptible to outages, and eliminates most of the seasonal snow issues.

I've explained the history before, but it dates back to the late-80's, early 90's, when King County had a moratorium on construction or modification on any new or existing transmitter sites on Cougar Mt. When Tacoma got merged into the Seattle market, stations like KBSG plus KMTT needed to move-in, but weren't allowed to build on Cougar. West Tiger was chosen, because it was available land, right behind Cougar to the East, and would allow a city grade signal to Tacoma (city of license).

To me, there is no advantage to being on W. Tiger. It was a competitive move by some groups to go there because other stations did. (signal parody) Besides being an inhospitable place to have a TX site, Cougar creates some significant shadows to W. Tiger to the West, including the spots in the two major commuting routes. A very smart consulting engineer pointed out: "I'd rather have 100kW 8 miles closer to my population base, than 60kW 8 miles further away any day." Or in simpler terms: "Field strength is everything".

 

[bobdavcav]

I am curious about the differences between Cougar and West Tiger. There are some issues downtown with West Tiger, but go farther south on 5 and even Cougar starts having some issues. The one clear advantage I see with West Tiger is downtown Everett and south of Snohomish. As you get close to highway 2 in Everett, Cougar stations get really noisy. Flip over to a West Tiger signal and those issues are gone. Even more noticeable is at the base of the Clearview Hill on 9. One area I really don't understand is why Cougar signals tend to have issues on 520 just after you get off the bridge going east. The other issues seem to be in the Federal Way area, that's another one I don't understand. Kelly, any idea why 92.5 is on West Tiger? Being licensed to Bellevue there doesn't seem to be any reason for them to be up there, same with 98.9, 94.1, 100.7, and 107.7.

 

[fordranger797]

I am curious about the differences between Cougar and West Tiger. There are some issues downtown with West Tiger, but go farther south on 5 and even Cougar starts having some issues. The one clear advantage I see with West Tiger is downtown Everett and south of Snohomish. As you get close to highway 2 in Everett, Cougar stations get really noisy. Flip over to a West Tiger signal and those issues are gone. Even more noticeable is at the base of the Clearview Hill on 9. One area I really don't understand is why Cougar signals tend to have issues on 520 just after you get off the bridge going east. The other issues seem to be in the Federal Way area, that's another one I don't understand. Kelly, any idea why 92.5 is on West Tiger? Being licensed to Bellevue there doesn't seem to be any reason for them to be up there, same with 98.9, 94.1, 100.7, and 107.7.

There is a bit of an impact on coverage toward the north sound, this is true. However, improved coverage into the direct metropolitan area is likely more important to these broadcasting companies. As Kelly stated, Tiger begins to have some problems on key commuting routes where cars will sit for a significant period of time. For this reason, improved coverage from Cougar is beneficial.

 

[Kelly A]

The one clear advantage I see with West Tiger is downtown Everett and south of Snohomish. As you get close to highway 2 in Everett, Cougar stations get really noisy.

Again, those areas are outside the rated Seattle metro. Listeners in those areas are throw-away.

One area I really don't understand is why Cougar signals tend to have issues on 520 just after you get off the bridge going east.

If you look to the East Southeast, you will see a hill and some buildings that creates a multipath zone (lots of reflections). Its not low signal, just lots of reflections.

The other issues seem to be in the Federal Way area, that's another one I don't understand. Kelly, any idea why 92.5 is on West Tiger? Being licensed to Bellevue there doesn't seem to be any reason for them to be up there, same with 98.9, 94.1, 100.7, and 107.7.

92.5 used to be on one of the shorter towers on Cougar Mt. The (as already mentioned) King County moratorium prevented them from making any improvements. (at the time) KMPS, and KLSY went in together on a master antenna on WTM. KNDD 107.7 was in a similar situation, being side mounted on the same short tower as KMPS with a dilapidated building on Cougar, moving to the WTM master antenna later.

100.7 was a different situation; because it had to move from the KIRO-TV tower when Bonneville sold KIRO-TV. The moratorium prevented them from moving to Cougar.

 

[bobdavcav]

Everett isn't part of the Seattle market? I thought it was. Snohomish makes a little more sense since it really doesn't feel like it's part of a major area. When was the moratorium lifted? Am I correct that KCMS moved to Cougar around 2001? What's the history behind 96.5, 98.9, and 102.5? Wasn't 96.5 on Cougar until about 15 years ago?

 

[bossbill]

Again, those areas are outside the rated Seattle metro. Listeners in those areas are throw-away.



If you look to the East Southeast, you will see a hill and some buildings that creates a multipath zone (lots of reflections). Its not low signal, just lots of reflections.



92.5 used to be on one of the shorter towers on Cougar Mt. The (as already mentioned) King County moratorium prevented them from making any improvements. (at the time) KMPS, and KLSY went in together on a master antenna on WTM. KNDD 107.7 was in a similar situation, being side mounted on the same short tower as KMPS with a dilapidated building on Cougar, moving to the WTM master antenna later.

100.7 was a different situation; because it had to move from the KIRO-TV tower when Bonneville sold KIRO-TV. The moratorium prevented them from moving to Cougar.

The dilapidated building that housed KMPS and KNDD was not much when it was new. We installed KOL-FM in that building after KRAB was already in it. Of course KOL-FM became KMPS-FM and KRAB became KNDD. I vaguely remember sliding the RCA transmitter for KOL-FM to the building. That was a very long time ago... maybe about 45 years ago.

 

[crainbebo]

Everett listeners are throwaway? Besides the two local FM translators and KSER, everyone listens to Seattle stations like they were in Kirkland or Renton. That should count in the Seattle ratings no doubt. 103,000 people live there + tens of thousands more in Snohomish, Marysville and Monroe.

 

[davideduardo]

Everett listeners are throwaway? Besides the two local FM translators and KSER, everyone listens to Seattle stations like they were in Kirkland or Renton. That should count in the Seattle ratings no doubt. 103,000 people live there + tens of thousands more in Snohomish, Marysville and Monroe.

Cities are not the basis for Nielsen ratings. Counties are.

The Seattle Metro Survey Area is Island, King, Kitsap, Pierce, Shohomish and Thurstan counties.

Snohomish is the third most populated at an estimated 819,900 persons.

 

[Kelly A]

Everett listeners are throwaway? Besides the two local FM translators and KSER, everyone listens to Seattle stations like they were in Kirkland or Renton. That should count in the Seattle ratings no doubt. 103,000 people live there + tens of thousands more in Snohomish, Marysville and Monroe.

If you look at the population density and potential PPM survey participants, as FordRanger said, I would take less signal shadows in Bellevue or Downtown Seattle, than less populated West Everett, any day.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with WTM. The choice was made due the limitations for stations who either weren't able to improve their signals on Cougar, or for those Tacoma stations which needed to gain full-market signals. Once the moratorium lifted on Cougar, most of the same stations built backup facilities on Cougar, albeit lower power and obviously height. After a few years of being knocked off the air and being unable to get to WTM, stations had no choice but build backup sites.

To put an exclamation point on this: just look at KUOW. They have little to no usable signal in Everett, and yet, at least from a ratings standpoint, they haven't suffered from not being on Cougar or WTM.

 

[e-dawg]

KUOW signal is best around the Seattle City core area and scratchy outside the Seattle City limits due to multipath issues, listening to KUOW 94.9 in Tacoma comes in static and scratchy. I think there was a time that KUOW could move to Cougar or West Tiger Mountain, but the owner decided to stay on Capitol Hill.

 

[crainbebo]

Yes. Even in Bothell, KUOW was noisy compared to Cougar/Tiger stations.

 

[fordranger797]

Any of the broadcasting companies with equipment located on Tiger or Cougar do care about listeners in Everett and Snohomish County. Cougar and Tiger are some of the best locations for broadcasting in this region, but unfortunately, there are dead spots to the north and south of the Seattle metropolitan area. In general, Cougar is closer to the metropolitan area and allows for better service in King County as a whole (as Kelly mentioned), with the only real exception being highway 18 behind the shadow of Tiger Mountain. The majority of listeners will be located in this county, therefore making technical changes to improve coverage in Everett or Olympia are not part of their consideration. While some of these stations may have reception problems this far away from Seattle, many people tune in anyway, and these listeners probably don't notice these coverage issues as much as those of us who are hyperaware might. Also, both Everett and Olympia have some of their own radio stations that are separate from the Seattle market, indicative that these areas are toward the fringe of the market where strong city-grade coverage isn't essential from a business standpoint. As for KUOW, they provide great coverage in the City of Seattle, but I agree, their signal is horrendous outside of the city. This isn't a television post, but it's the same story with KIRO, KING, KOMO, or any of the Seattle TV broadcasters using Queen Ann or even Capitol Hill.

I'm not an engineer, but that is my $0.02 for all that it's worth.