Star 102.5

[TheBigA]

To begin with, AC is a predominantly female format, so we have to look at how the format is incorporated into the lives of the listeners.

Exactly...I never hear women complain, just men. And they're not listeners, they're just people who complain about the concept.

But we also know that advertisers love Christmas music. It's a positive environment for their spots, and the music motivates people to buy.

 

[Buddy Shula]

I've never heard that supposed "disagreement".

Yes, there is differing opinion on when to start the Christmas music, but in general from week #1 the audience size increases with additional TSL and cume.

Running the regular format on a stream or on an HD channel is simply a promotion that enhances image. The streams don't produce revenue or marketable ratings.

The Phoenix station that did the first full-season Holiday music got immediate high ratings and no significant complaints. In fact, what Jerry Ryan, the manager, noted was that the post-Christmas listening in the Winter book was higher than previous Winter books, indicating that the Holiday format had brought some new listeners to the station, permanently.

Obviously, you are prejudiced and are bringing your distaste to the discussion. You call the music "Christmas Muzak" yet the seasonal format is quite well researched to play the songs that the AC core and other potential listeners most like.

To begin with, AC is a predominantly female format, so we have to look at how the format is incorporated into the lives of the listeners. Just as many don't understand or like the Hallmark channel Christmas movies, the focus of both Christmas radio and that TV service is on a particular lifestyle... and should be respected as even in highly ethnic markets like LA, the Christmas music station may cume as high as a third or more of all listeners (and even more in the target demo).

By far, the ratings are huge for a station like STAR. Unfortunately, the high ratings last 2 months. If it were not for Xmas music, STAR may as well not exist. They do super well literally two months a year. And their revenues do not explode like the ratings do. Xmas music as a format would work well for any station. The P1s would generate lots of quarter hours. It would be destination listening. The same with a well promoted all local buffalo weather radio station. What’s the first thing people in Buffalo think in the morning? The answer is what is the weather like. For a smaller signal, the covers a larger area, that station would create loyal listeners, quickly. If weck was not doing so well, I would absolutely do a local weather station 24 7.

 

[b-turner]

Any place where weather affects daily life frequently could likely do well as an all weather station. When I was in Houston, I explored an all traffic and weather station. I could get decent updates on traffic (once a half hour), so I shelved the idea. Houston floods from a sea breeze thundershower, not to mention hurricanes. Anybody who has been to Houston always talks about how terrible the traffic is.

 

[SirRoxalot]

They have, but it hasn't been represented in the diary.

What? The ratings improved for Star at Christmas but it wasn't represented in the diary? How do you determine that? They got big ratings for several years as did WJYE (now WMSX) but those ratings have tailed off over time. Last year the Christmas book wasn't the big boost it was in the past.

You can't pick and choose when to believe the methodology. This year will be the first with the rolling averages. It will be interesting to see those results. Otherwise, why is anybody paying for ratings if they don't reflect the actual audience?

 

[TheBigA]

What? The ratings improved for Star at Christmas but it wasn't represented in the diary? How do you determine that?

It was represented in increased sales. Remember: The goal isn't increased ratings, the goal is to make more money. They play Christmas music because advertisers like it and they buy spots. They don't sell holiday ratings. The main point is that playing Christmas music doesn't hurt them in the ratings, which is what tbolt was saying. Just because people he knows complain doesn't mean it's bad for business, and it's not. Meanwhile, there HAS to be a reason why Christmas music is so huge in PPM markets, and it's not as strong in a diary market.

 

[Buddy Shula]

What? The ratings improved for Star at Christmas but it wasn't represented in the diary? How do you determine that? They got big ratings for several years as did WJYE (now WMSX) but those ratings have tailed off over time. Last year the Christmas book wasn't the big boost it was in the past.

You can't pick and choose when to believe the methodology. This year will be the first with the rolling averages. It will be interesting to see those results. Otherwise, why is anybody paying for ratings if they don't reflect the actual audience?

The only reason broadcast facilities pay for ratings is so they can be InThe ratings. It’s the only metric they have for advertisers, especially local and national agencies and rep firm.

Obviously the ratings are messed up. Just look at sample size. Look at who gets the diaries. PPM markets are far more reminiscent of the truth.


If you pay for ratings, and your a small station, and your ratings are nothing to show someone, it’s probably not a good idea to spend all that money to subscribe.

 

[four4rock]

By far, the ratings are huge for a station like STAR. Unfortunately, the high ratings last 2 months. If it were not for Xmas music, STAR may as well not exist. They do super well literally two months a year. And their revenues do not explode like the ratings do. Xmas music as a format would work well for any station. The P1s would generate lots of quarter hours. It would be destination listening. The same with a well promoted all local buffalo weather radio station. What’s the first thing people in Buffalo think in the morning? The answer is what is the weather like. For a smaller signal, the covers a larger area, that station would create loyal listeners, quickly. If weck was not doing so well, I would absolutely do a local weather station 24 7.

Local 24/7 weather station = Brilliant! What would that look like? And, has there ever been one in Western New York (and, if not, why not)? I'd very likely finance something like that.

 

[davideduardo]

Meanwhile, there HAS to be a reason why Christmas music is so huge in PPM markets, and it's not as strong in a diary market.

Diary markets do not measure 4 weeks at Christmas time. PPM markets do. So the diary survey misses two to three weeks of the Christmas format, the strongest ones.

 

[davideduardo]

What? The ratings improved for Star at Christmas but it wasn't represented in the diary? How do you determine that? They got big ratings for several years as did WJYE (now WMSX) but those ratings have tailed off over time. Last year the Christmas book wasn't the big boost it was in the past.

Arbitron and Nielsen used to take a 3-week break at Christmas and a one week one at the end of March. Now it is all in December and first few day of January, missing most of the strongest Christmas music weeks. In other words, they took the second week of December out of the Fall book.

You can't pick and choose when to believe the methodology. This year will be the first with the rolling averages. It will be interesting to see those results. Otherwise, why is anybody paying for ratings if they don't reflect the actual audience?

There is no measurement difference. They just computer weight each 12-week period to be a full book instead of just doing it every 3 months. Essentially, no difference except trends are now weighted and called books.

Stations that need ratings pay for them and then complain about sample. If they want more sample, get all the subscribers to pay more. Nielsen would be happy to double the cost for each station! Remember, it takes 4 times the sample to reduce by 1 the standard error.

 

[b-turner]

Back to the weather format idea, I looked at a traffic and weather format when I was in Houston. I was looking at a 5 minute sequence with up to 24 minutes of ad time and branding of the weather center and traffic central. I had packages of 1 unit per half hour down to 1 unit every other hour. I was wanting to brand us as the station to turn to for hurricane updates. I had the weather side worked out. The traffic was the issue I had. A report updated every 30 minutes wasn't enough in my book. I was looking at automation for low cost execution. My thought was it might not do too much in the ratings, but with the TV relationship we had, I felt we could get marketing ramped up quickly and at lower costs than a traditional format. During hurricane events, like many other stations, we'd simulcast the TV audio from our partner. I believe it could have worked given the station was debt free and I figured the format was good for a AM with decent market coverage.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

Accurate, updated traffic information as well as accurate, detailed weather information are available on a smart phone. Older listeners resort to WBEN out of habit, but their kids are teaching them how to use apps like Waze. A former local manager years ago was rumored to buy WJJL and program it All Tourism, All The Time. Didn't happen. Who knows how long that type of format would have lasted on a daytimer with a kilowatt day and 55 watts at night... maybe as longs as the All Classifieds format that Gordon McLendon tried for a while on one of his West Coast stations.

 

[TheBigA]

Accurate, updated traffic information as well as accurate, detailed weather information are available on a smart phone.

I hear people say that all the time, and I have those apps on my phone, but it's so much easier to have it told to me, rather than having to go and get it. Especially when I'm driving at 70 miles an hour.

Same way with music. Sure I can program my own playlist, but it's so much easier to have it done for me. Call me lazy.

 

[b-turner]

Rusty Bridges mentions Tourism Radio and McClendon's Classifieds format. Always looking for unique uses of the airwaves, I talked to some people that tried the Tourist radio route. All had problems with billing in off-season months but did well in peak-season months. It was a cheap and easy format to execute but including the off-season months, annual billing was low. There was one exception that actually ran live jocks. That station did a Calendar of Events each quarter hour, weather every 30 minutes and 2 five minute features an hour on the sites/attractions. The music was primarily the local bands that played the local venues. They seemed to do well but they were a tourist town.

For the 'Classifieds', McClendon is it. Similar in focus was what I termed 'shopping radio'. One station sought gift certificates for services people used and needed frequently. They were hawked on the air and sold to listeners at about a 30-50% discount. For one station it was an AM within a group of local stations that did the format to build the number of believers in radio. Merchants got ads on the sister stations at full spot rate traded for the merchandise they sold on the AM. Another station had enough of a following that the gift certificates were in exchange for the on air exposure of selling the gift certificates to listeners. I think both are still at it in some form (likely much more of an online presence as my contact with these stations was when the internet was still dial-up).

I spoke to someone at a New England big city station years ago where the station had been sold but the sale did not get processed very quickly by the FCC. It seems the station went, I think, months, running NOAA Weather Radio after the staff bailed for new gigs. This continued long enough to show up in the ratings. The GM was shocked but it seemed folks liked the idea of punching a button on the car radio and getting the weather forecast.

 

[SirRoxalot]

I'm not sure a full-time traffic and weather format would work in WNY. The traffic here follows pretty predictable patterns and we don't really have the traffic issues of larger metropolises. "Rush hour" typically adds about five minutes to the commute. Yes, an accident, construction, weather, or other disruption can create a snarl, but those are relatively rare. Both radio and TV seem to cover the issues pretty quickly and efficiently in the midst of other programming.

The weather is changeable, but that's the rule here in the lee of Lake Erie. Change is the constant. Smart people have at least a three-season set of clothes in their car, a bottle of water, and a substantial snack or three. Once again, when the weather becomes an issue, stations already manned by people usually cover the situation well. Despite Buffalo's reputation, it doesn't happen often enough that a full time station is needed. We get snow, but we're not exactly tornado alley.

Perhaps combining elements of several suggestions might be viable for a low-budget station. A weather-traffic-tourism-swap shop-local college sports hybrid might make enough to survive. Hyper-focusing on an underserved area - like the western Niagara County/Niagara Falls/TNT area might also work.

None of this really has anything to do with Star 102.5...

 

[Rusty Bridges]

I hear people say that all the time, and I have those apps on my phone, but it's so much easier to have it told to me, rather than having to go and get it. Especially when I'm driving at 70 miles an hour. Same way with music. Sure I can program my own playlist, but it's so much easier to have it done for me. Call me lazy.

OK, you're lazy. But I get it.

Now let's use a counter argument that you and David have employed at one time or another on this board, "You're not necessarily representative of the research. Just because you do it doesn't mean that other people do it."

That said, it's likely a demographic issue. Of all the people I know and work with under the approximate age of 45, none use the radio for traffic or weather. I'm well over that age and even I don't regularly or consistently tune the radio for weather, nor do I use the TV for the Weather Channel. It's an option, no doubt. But I do use the Weather Channel or AccuWeather app, and also consult local TV stations' apps for weather, especially in winter, in large measure because all three local TV stations have excellent weather tools, facilities and certified meteorologists (most Penn State met grads.)

That stated, I'm not claiming to represent all or most people in the 45+ demo.

 

[CTListener]

I spoke to someone at a New England big city station years ago where the station had been sold but the sale did not get processed very quickly by the FCC. It seems the station went, I think, months, running NOAA Weather Radio after the staff bailed for new gigs. This continued long enough to show up in the ratings. The GM was shocked but it seemed folks liked the idea of punching a button on the car radio and getting the weather forecast.

Would that have been WLVH Hartford? It was a hideously underfinanced full-signal Spanish-language station trying to attract advertising in a market in which the Hispanic population at the time was largely an economically struggling underclass. David Eduardo is probably the one to provide the full story, but I believe the owners were somewhat shady characters and were pretty much forced to give up the station. Hartford still has no full-signal Spanish-language FM, some 30 years later.

 

[davideduardo]

Would that have been WLVH Hartford? It was a hideously underfinanced full-signal Spanish-language station trying to attract advertising in a market in which the Hispanic population at the time was largely an economically struggling underclass. David Eduardo is probably the one to provide the full story, but I believe the owners were somewhat shady characters and were pretty much forced to give up the station. Hartford still has no full-signal Spanish-language FM, some 30 years later.

The owner was José Grimault, who sold the station and used the money to buy a minority interest in SBS after his daughter married the founder's son.

WLVH made decent money. At one time, Grimault flew to Puerto Rico to offer me a partnership interest to go manage the station. I did not accept, but several years later when we had deals to buy stations in NYC and Miami we also added WLVH to the purchase package as we had adequate funding from two NYC banks. The deal did not go through when we pulled out after our parent corporation was saddled with the leases when Hills supermarkets on LI went out of business, but I saw the book both when I was offered a personal interest and then when we signed an option to buy.

Grimault had some wealth from his family in Spain and Cuba, and after selling WLVH and running the SBS LA stations for a while, retired to his estate on Mallorca.

Grimault ran WLVH very frugally so that he could make money. But the station was nicely profitable as a result.

 

[TheBigA]

Of all the people I know and work with under the approximate age of 45, none use the radio for traffic or weather.

The key words being "of all the people I know." That's not statistically relevant. You'd be surprised how many research studies I see that fly in the face of my own experience. Here's what we know: People use LOTS of methods to get information. They also use LOTS of platforms to listen to music. I know people who are subscribers to several streaming services. The same person may use four different ways to do the exact same thing. Radio is often ONE of those things. But it's not the ONLY thing. I base that on multiple blind usage studies, not on the people I know. I don't need to hear about the people you know. I know people too.

But hey, there are lots of radio stations that don't do traffic or weather, especially outside of morning drive. So if you say no one you know uses radio for traffic or weather, that's fine. If you want to give owners reasons not to spend money on traffic and weather services, tell them your experiential research. They'll be glad not to spend the money, and just play more music.

 

[CTListener]

The owner was José Grimault, who sold the station and used the money to buy a minority interest in SBS after his daughter married the founder's son.

WLVH made decent money. At one time, Grimault flew to Puerto Rico to offer me a partnership interest to go manage the station. I did not accept, but several years later when we had deals to buy stations in NYC and Miami we also added WLVH to the purchase package as we had adequate funding from two NYC banks. The deal did not go through when we pulled out after our parent corporation was saddled with the leases when Hills supermarkets on LI went out of business, but I saw the book both when I was offered a personal interest and then when we signed an option to buy.

Grimault had some wealth from his family in Spain and Cuba, and after selling WLVH and running the SBS LA stations for a while, retired to his estate on Mallorca.

Grimault ran WLVH very frugally so that he could make money. But the station was nicely profitable as a result.

So how did it get to the point of having to run NOAA 24/7 instead of originating programming? Was the failure of the supermarket chain the tipping point?

 

[davideduardo]

So how did it get to the point of having to run NOAA 24/7 instead of originating programming? Was the failure of the supermarket chain the tipping point?

No, the issue was to keep it on the air while the sale was going through.

Back then, a sale could take 6 months or more to be approved. In Hartford, if you loose staff it is hard to find replacements knowing that the new owner will change the format.

Further, the advertisers knew the station format was ending, and most of them cancelled.