WCMT AM (Martin, TN)

[SomeRadioGuy]

I've worked overnights for years, and if anything, the problem is on management's end. They ALWAYS seem to think that they have more listeners than they actually do. Weekend overnights are REALLY dead.

It isn't for me to figure out the solution for them. Overnights, particularly on AM radio, are a joke. They know it, you know it, and I know it.

So.. you complain about the crap overnight programming in your mind.. but admit there are few overnight listeners.... you want them to expend effort for few overnight listeners?

Again, what do you propose they do? you complain but offer zero solution.

 

[firepoint525]

So.. you complain about the crap overnight programming in your mind.. but admit there are few overnight listeners.... you want them to expend effort for few overnight listeners?
Again, what do you propose they do? you complain but offer zero solution.

Okay, first of all, YOU picked a fight with ME over this issue. I never argued in favor of "better" programming, only against programming it over so many redundant translators. I called it "unnecessary," and you picked a fight with me over one word! And you mentioned night programming, which only further weakened YOUR argument. The OP of this thread asked if so many translators were necessary, and I said no.

Show me an example of another rinky-dink AM station ANYWHERE with so many translators.

I would like to have seen one of those translators go to WFUL, but they went off the air. And one of them go to WENK, but that never happened while Hailey was there, and it wasn't until Forever bought WENK that WENK got a translator of their own.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Okay, first of all, YOU picked a fight with ME over this issue. I never argued in favor of "better" programming, only against programming it over so many redundant translators. I called it "unnecessary," and you picked a fight with me over one word! And you mentioned night programming, which only further weakened YOUR argument. The OP of this thread asked if so many translators were necessary, and I said no.

Show me an example of another rinky-dink AM station ANYWHERE with so many translators.

I would like to have seen one of those translators go to WFUL, but they went off the air. And one of them go to WENK, but that never happened while Hailey was there, and it wasn't until Forever bought WENK that WENK got a translator of their own.

ITs all about what a station can justify and afford to spend.. Obviously some operators cant justify it.

Andf i say theyt are necessary for WCMT, if WCMT can afford them.. it fills in coverage on the am at night, which has already been explained... the translators cover parts at night the am doesnt.. so how does that not make it worth it?

 

[firepoint525]

ITs all about what a station can justify and afford to spend.. Obviously some operators cant justify it.
Andf i say theyt are necessary for WCMT, if WCMT can afford them.. it fills in coverage on the am at night, which has already been explained... the translators cover parts at night the am doesnt.. so how does that not make it worth it?

Okay, finally beginning to get back on topic here. But the original question was what was so great about them that they need five translators? I can't answer that. I just know that they were there with the $$$ when WAY-FM decided to sell. Maybe not all of them were WAY's translators, but some of them were. I still wonder why Hailey never picked up one for WENK. He was certainly ahead of the curve with the need for an FM station, with getting (then) KF-99 on the air.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Okay, finally beginning to get back on topic here. But the original question was what was so great about them that they need five translators? I can't answer that. I just know that they were there with the $$$ when WAY-FM decided to sell. Maybe not all of them were WAY's translators, but some of them were. I still wonder why Hailey never picked up one for WENK. He was certainly ahead of the curve with the need for an FM station, with getting (then) KF-99 on the air.

Many companies.. if they couldnt justify the cost of building a translator (about $10-$15,000 including transmitter, processing, antenna, cable and tower crew) and couldnt prove the translator would help revenue, they didnt or werent allowed to apply by ownership.. or in a case of a local owner, if the owner/management couldnt justify it, they just didnt do it.

WE have no idea what these stations are billing and $10 to $15,000 is probably on the low end of cost of building for translators

 

[b-turner]

And that's likely excluding a tower lease of $500 to $750 a month.

 

[AMFMKYTN]

And that's likely excluding a tower lease of $500 to $750 a month.

Some are on towers they already own, so that helps.

Greenfield is a nice self-supporter that was constructed just a few years ago.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Some are on towers they already own, so that helps.

Greenfield is a nice self-supporter that was constructed just a few years ago.

i know at least two of them are.. i know at least one of the translators operates from one of their studios

 

[davideduardo]

They bought up at least some of WAY-FM's former translators in the n.w. TN area. I agree with the rest of you that it is highly unnecessary, but it is no expense out of my pocket. Not sure why WAY-FM exited n.w. TN.

Each one covers a (limited) area within that broad NW TN market. Together, they offer a full "metro" coverage.

For those who use radio-locator maps, remember that the proven listening area is inside the red and innermost contour. The others are meaningless to station operators as they will get very little measurable listening outside the red contour.

So, yes, all of those translators are needed to cover the market area for a radio station.

 

[b-turner]

firepoint525, I heartily disagree with portions of your post above. I think it is part of your job to try to bolster the audience numbers by doing good radio, as much as is allowed within the format. I'm guessing you did

The listeners might be very few compared to morning drive but if listening was as terrible as you describe, virtually every radio station would likely sign off at the end of afternoon drive. Remember, radio is a business and business people tend to watch the money very carefully.

True, selling overnights is virtually impossible and it's not management's fault, it's the advertiser's fault because they don't want commercials in the middle of the night. Probably one of two of the most irritating things to me as a former GM and still salesperson is how we're supposed to sell something the advertiser does not want. Put yourself in those shoes. Do you do business with people who do not sell you what you want? If you say you don't, then in many people's book it's because of bad management and bad salespeople. For some reason people think salespeople should be able to do this: the customers comes on your car lot and wants to buy a pickup truck but you won't sell them one. You have to make them buy a Kia instead. Selling is all about giving the customer what they want with better service and better value than any competitor you have.

The second thing is why we're supposed to spend money on something that will constantly lose money (ie: local programming versus syndicated or automated in the overnights). If the person talking down management for doing syndicated versus live had the dollars doled out from their pocket, it wouldn't be for long. Sorry, but things like paying the light bill, meeting payroll and paying all the other bills means you do what you have to do in order for the station to live within it's budget.

I'm not trying to do anything here other than share my thoughts as former GM of an AM for a quarter of a century and a radio salesperson for about 33 years. It hasn't always been pretty and it has left a mark or two but the journey continues on my end. By the way, I was the only media to get a buy today from a client for only one reason, I'd drive the 22 miles to see him in person when everybody else wanted to use the phone or email. In fact, I'm bonusing him a few spots since the spot load is so low this time of year. I want to be sure he gets better than good results.

 

[firepoint525]

Each one covers a (limited) area within that broad NW TN market. Together, they offer a full "metro" coverage.
For those who use radio-locator maps, remember that the proven listening area is inside the red and innermost contour. The others are meaningless to station operators as they will get very little measurable listening outside the red contour.
So, yes, all of those translators are needed to cover the market area for a radio station.

I hardly ever look at the parameters beyond the red parameter. I usually even zoom in for a better view. Brings in more small towns within that parameter.

 

[firepoint525]

firepoint525, I heartily disagree with portions of your post above. I think it is part of your job to try to bolster the audience numbers by doing good radio, as much as is allowed within the format. I'm guessing you did

The listeners might be very few compared to morning drive but if listening was as terrible as you describe, virtually every radio station would likely sign off at the end of afternoon drive. Remember, radio is a business and business people tend to watch the money very carefully.

True, selling overnights is virtually impossible and it's not management's fault, it's the advertiser's fault because they don't want commercials in the middle of the night. Probably one of two of the most irritating things to me as a former GM and still salesperson is how we're supposed to sell something the advertiser does not want. Put yourself in those shoes. Do you do business with people who do not sell you what you want? If you say you don't, then in many people's book it's because of bad management and bad salespeople. For some reason people think salespeople should be able to do this: the customers comes on your car lot and wants to buy a pickup truck but you won't sell them one. You have to make them buy a Kia instead. Selling is all about giving the customer what they want with better service and better value than any competitor you have.

The second thing is why we're supposed to spend money on something that will constantly lose money (ie: local programming versus syndicated or automated in the overnights). If the person talking down management for doing syndicated versus live had the dollars doled out from their pocket, it wouldn't be for long. Sorry, but things like paying the light bill, meeting payroll and paying all the other bills means you do what you have to do in order for the station to live within it's budget.

I'm not trying to do anything here other than share my thoughts as former GM of an AM for a quarter of a century and a radio salesperson for about 33 years. It hasn't always been pretty and it has left a mark or two but the journey continues on my end. By the way, I was the only media to get a buy today from a client for only one reason, I'd drive the 22 miles to see him in person when everybody else wanted to use the phone or email. In fact, I'm bonusing him a few spots since the spot load is so low this time of year. I want to be sure he gets better than good results.

I take it that you never actually worked overnights. I can do the best radio that I can, but that won't bring in the listeners.

I worked overnights at another station in which the GM took "live and local" to an absurd extent. He wanted me to be "live and local" at 3:00 a.m. on Sunday mornings when I could barely hold my eyes open. I didn't have any objection to babysitting some syndicated programming at that hour, but I just wasn't coherent enough to be "live and local" at 3:00 a.m. I even asked for syndicated programming to fill that shift, but was denied. About six months after I left, the other shoe dropped, and these absurd shifts were eliminated. That GM was himself soon eliminated. This was the same brain trust who tried to do AM stereo there in 1993!

 

[b-turner]

Actually I did work overnights on a station that did zero syndication. It was a 6 hour shift and 2 hours of production. I got calls and got to know many of the listeners (mostly shift workers and college students). No, it wasn't a huge audience but I noted caller's favorite song, where they worked and if I found out, their birthday. I said hello to places that regularly listened, dropped names on favorite songs from time to time and tried to create a feel that we were all this big family. I did not stay in that shift a very long time mainly because my PD did the morning show. So I got added attention and 'aircheck sessions' the other shifts didn't get. My problem wasn't staying awake during the shift, it was getting enough sleep because my PD would hold a meeting at 10 or want me to join a live 2 or 3 hour remote at 3 or 4pm. And back to work with production at 10. It was always something once or twice a day.

The truth was I was lured to the station for the 7 to Midnight shift but was told on I got there I had to start on the Midnight to 6 shift until I got good enough for a better shift.

 

[firepoint525]

Actually I did work overnights on a station that did zero syndication. It was a 6 hour shift and 2 hours of production. I got calls and got to know many of the listeners (mostly shift workers and college students). No, it wasn't a huge audience but I noted caller's favorite song, where they worked and if I found out, their birthday. I said hello to places that regularly listened, dropped names on favorite songs from time to time and tried to create a feel that we were all this big family. I did not stay in that shift a very long time mainly because my PD did the morning show. So I got added attention and 'aircheck sessions' the other shifts didn't get. My problem wasn't staying awake during the shift, it was getting enough sleep because my PD would hold a meeting at 10 or want me to join a live 2 or 3 hour remote at 3 or 4pm. And back to work with production at 10. It was always something once or twice a day.

The truth was I was lured to the station for the 7 to Midnight shift but was told on I got there I had to start on the Midnight to 6 shift until I got good enough for a better shift.

I worked overnights for many years, and my experience was NOTHING like that. I can only guess that you did this in the '70s or '80s, when the audience was actually still there. When I worked overnights at WCMT, they carried Larry King Live, on both AM and FM. I'm guessing that they did this because the AM was pumping out a whopping 54 watts at night. But I seriously doubt that very many listeners heard it, because AM listeners (mostly my parents' age at the time) had gone to bed, while FM listeners just flipped the dial in search of music. After I left WCMT, Larry King moved his show to late afternoons. They got complaints about that from AM listeners, from what I understood at the time, but he was off of FM once he moved to late afternoons.

My next station, the old WDXN, was even worse. I did weekend overnights there for a few months, and I am positive that we had ZERO listeners during that time frame. As I said earlier, I asked for syndicated programming during that time slot, but they wouldn't hear of it. I should point out that, at that time, they had only recently started broadcasting 24 hours. They later added an FM sister station to simulcast with it, but its tower was in a very rural area, so probably did very little to increase listenership, especially during weekend overnights. But again, the problem solved itself after I left. The GM was hit with a sexual harassment charge, and was soon shown the door. After that, the station underwent a much-needed management and format change. (I know that this GM wanted me out, but even if I had somehow been able to stay, I wouldn't have been able to weather the changes that took place after I left, anyway.)

The solution for me was to program shortwave at night. It was worldwide, so we actually had listeners. I still had the local AM to program, but I got them to streamline the programming there as much as possible, so that I had little more to do than just babysit the programming, and drop the legal ID every hour. And I did all that for 10 years.

 

[b-turner]

My overnights was in the 1980s. 54 watts overnights was not much power. I doubt you had a bunch of listeners. Those you might have had working overnights likely never called. I don't know enough about the market to say about WDXN but with all the Nashville signals, I'm fairly sure dividing it all up made for a tiny slice of the total listeners.

I was at a station that went 24/7 in an isolated town about the same size. We got the shift workers but I got calls on my morning shift every time the overnight guy screwed up...lots of them, considering. 24/7 only lasted a few months and as I recall they never sold a commercial or even bonused spots Midnight to 6am. I never got that since this was a border town where stations in Mexico sold spots for 5 cents and up making us resort to a free spot after 6pm for each daytime spot you'd buy to command a $2 spot rate. Needless to say that station was famous for 'one in a row' music marathons, just like everybody else on the dial but our stop sets were limited to 4 spots. In Mexico it was about 8 songs an hour with the remainder being commercials unless you were really unpopular.

 

[tomservo]

When I worked overnights at WCMT, they carried Larry King Live, on both AM and FM.

How many times did you catch Larry falling asleep while on the air?

 

[firepoint525]

How many times did you catch Larry falling asleep while on the air?

Listening to him too closely would have likely put ME to sleep!

 

[firepoint525]

My overnights was in the 1980s. 54 watts overnights was not much power. I doubt you had a bunch of listeners. Those you might have had working overnights likely never called. I don't know enough about the market to say about WDXN but with all the Nashville signals, I'm fairly sure dividing it all up made for a tiny slice of the total listeners.

I was at a station that went 24/7 in an isolated town about the same size. We got the shift workers but I got calls on my morning shift every time the overnight guy screwed up...lots of them, considering. 24/7 only lasted a few months and as I recall they never sold a commercial or even bonused spots Midnight to 6am. I never got that since this was a border town where stations in Mexico sold spots for 5 cents and up making us resort to a free spot after 6pm for each daytime spot you'd buy to command a $2 spot rate. Needless to say that station was famous for 'one in a row' music marathons, just like everybody else on the dial but our stop sets were limited to 4 spots. In Mexico it was about 8 songs an hour with the remainder being commercials unless you were really unpopular.

I would be curious to know the wattage of your station(s).

At WCMT, when I was there overnights, I got a call from a listener wanting King's number, so that he could (try to) call in to King's show. We kept the number handy, so I gave it to him, and told him that I would be listening for his call on the air! On occasion, I heard King put callers on the air from towns potentially within our listening area.

At WDXN, far and away our biggest draw at the time was Atlanta Braves baseball. When they were on, we could count on listeners tuning in. And if we pre-empted them for any reason, we would get calls asking if we didn't carry the Braves "anymore." (At least, management took that call!)

 

[b-turner]

Mine was a 3kw FM in a small city of about 60,000. There were a mere 5 local stations but our location meant the dial was crowded with major market signals from two markets on both the AM and FM.

 

[b-turner]

Your caller wanting Larry King's number reminds me of running the board for American Top 40. All these young children would call weekly wanting Casey's number to request a song. I finally leveled with them that I was playing a record and the program had been recorded. Most didn't get it and still asked for his number. We were obviously a Top 40. We were live and took requests like every other top 40 in that time (and played them when they popped up in rotation).

Sports fans can be hard to handle. When I was in Houston, we carried some college football games. One week the Houston Chronicle listed the start time at 11am instead of noon. Being the manager of the station at the time, after the jock got cussed up one side and down the other, they put them on to me. For a good 80%, they believed we had the game start time wrong, not the newspaper. I recall we all laughed about that a few times but while the calls were fast and furious, it wasn't much fun.