Understanding

[ChannelFlipper]

Your Quote:
But you have to understand that there are some things commercial stations can not even try to do as the target is too small and the advertiser interest is not there.

Why do I have to understand this? You act like you are the only one who knows how the world goes around. For the most part you are correct. Profitable products always have to have a critical mass of of consumers to be successful. But what you don't understand is that is not always correct, because success is not always measured in ratings or revenue. Sometimes it is measured simply by the fact that it exists. For example, my grandfather is an excellent artist. He sells very few of his pieces, thus they have been mostly inherited by members of my family. To me they are priceless treasures and any discussion of their "success" would be ludicrous on its face. They are a success because he created great pieces and they exist.

With that in mind, I know of a little station called KSUR that almost certainly loses money or at best breaks even on low fixed costs. The owner broadcasts what he wants, and what he wants changes quite frequently. He sometimes even puts on formats that he knows have failed spectacularly in the past, and have no hope for financial success in the future. He has a small group of listeners that he caters to, and when he changes his format, some of those listeners leave and some new ones come in. For however long the provides the service, the listeners he caters to get the benefit and he gets the benefit of knowing he provides something of value, which is not measured in dollars. It matters not whether he makes money or his station is rated, or if he even has advertising for that matter. His success is in owning the station and playing what he wants for the audience he wants. That is what I understand.

 

[Joey1986]

I know this is off-topic, but I hope the number of circular arguments that come up here will, at the very least, be greatly reduced from this point on now that Oldies76 has been shown the door. A big thank you to Frank for restoring some civility to Radio Discussions by banning that user.

I was about as tired of reading through the circular arguments as DavidEduardo must’ve been of engaging in them.

 

[davideduardo]

I know this is off-topic, but I hope the number of circular arguments that come up here will, at the very least, be greatly reduced from this point on now that Oldies76 has been shown the door. A big thank you to Frank for restoring some civility to Radio Discussions by banning that user.

I was about as tired of reading through the circular arguments as DavidEduardo must’ve been of engaging in them.

And, to put this on the open record, I received what my attorney and I feel to be a "thinly veiled threat" from that poster saying "this is not over".

This forum is the only national radio board where listeners can interact with many people who are involved or have been involved with radio stations. We have on-air talent, owners, engineers, programmers, sales people; they are from big markets and little ones and every kind of format.

Usually, the exchange of information makes interested listeners better informed while there has been no lack of valid listener comments that stations should listen to.

On this later subject, recent ones about stations with improperly programmed automation systems that play dated material or superimpose multiple sources or have "off" timing have made me send some extracts to a number of people on my list. And the ones about stations not using the original versions of past hits is also on my personal checklist. And stations that use webcasting consolidators that can't do proper in- and out- of stopset timing is horrible; often station staff does not know because they don't listen to their stream out of the local market.

There are plenty more that have come off this board, even a case a while back of a station in a cluster I was involved with that was off the air because, it turned out, the PD had forgotten to load the log.

So listeners constantly give good feedback. Most are interested in knowing what makes this particular clock tick. Maybe now we can get back to that!

 

[davideduardo]

Your Quote:


With that in mind, I know of a little station called KSUR that almost certainly loses money or at best breaks even on low fixed costs. The owner broadcasts what he wants, and what he wants changes quite frequently. He sometimes even puts on formats that he knows have failed spectacularly in the past, and have no hope for financial success in the future. He has a small group of listeners that he caters to, and when he changes his format, some of those listeners leave and some new ones come in. For however long the provides the service, the listeners he caters to get the benefit and he gets the benefit of knowing he provides something of value, which is not measured in dollars. It matters not whether he makes money or his station is rated, or if he even has advertising for that matter. His success is in owning the station and playing what he wants for the audience he wants. That is what I understand.

Many years ago, the 5th FM I put on in my market was all classical. I got a little revenue from some of the embassies in town to run their government shows in the afternoon, and then at night we did all music with no ads. I never sold any time, and I never really tried. I just liked having a classical station.

But when rock started picking up momentum in the late 60's, I shed the classics and did all US and UK rock; the direct descendant of that station and format is still successful today.

So my "hobby" format was simply a temporary amusement until I found something that might make money. As soon as the band was ready for rock, I jumped on the format. I was never wealthy enough to continue to run a station for personal pleasure for any longer; had the opportunity not come along to profitably do rock, I likely would have silenced the station.

 

[Joey1986]

And, to put this on the open record, I received what my attorney and I feel to be a "thinly veiled threat" from that poster saying "this is not over".

This forum is the only national radio board where listeners can interact with many people who are involved or have been involved with radio stations. We have on-air talent, owners, engineers, programmers, sales people; they are from big markets and little ones and every kind of format.

Usually, the exchange of information makes interested listeners better informed while there has been no lack of valid listener comments that stations should listen to.

On this later subject, recent ones about stations with improperly programmed automation systems that play dated material or superimpose multiple sources or have "off" timing have made me send some extracts to a number of people on my list. And the ones about stations not using the original versions of past hits is also on my personal checklist. And stations that use webcasting consolidators that can't do proper in- and out- of stopset timing is horrible; often station staff does not know because they don't listen to their stream out of the local market.

There are plenty more that have come off this board, even a case a while back of a station in a cluster I was involved with that was off the air because, it turned out, the PD had forgotten to load the log.

So listeners constantly give good feedback. Most are interested in knowing what makes this particular clock tick. Maybe now we can get back to that!

What I forgot to put in my original post in this thread is that your posts are highly informative and you really know your stuff.

I hope that Oldies76 will not be able to follow through on his threat against you. I pray for your safety.

And if someone else registers here and tries to make those same arguments, I hope they will have the ability to accept the fact that their ideas won’t work in radio and not try to call you or the other experts liars.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Many years ago, the 5th FM I put on in my market was all classical. I got a little revenue from some of the embassies in town to run their government shows in the afternoon, and then at night we did all music with no ads. I never sold any time, and I never really tried. I just liked having a classical station.

But when rock started picking up momentum in the late 60's, I shed the classics and did all US and UK rock; the direct descendant of that station and format is still successful today.

So my "hobby" format was simply a temporary amusement until I found something that might make money. As soon as the band was ready for rock, I jumped on the format. I was never wealthy enough to continue to run a station for personal pleasure for any longer; had the opportunity not come along to profitably do rock, I likely would have silenced the station.

One day Saul will decide he doesn't want a money-losing hobby station anymore and he will sell out, or more likely, he has broadcasting in his blood and will never sell, but his heirs will. On that day you will drop a big "I-told-you-so" on me. Except you won't be able to, because again, profit is clearly not his motivation for this signal. He has other signals for that in which he practices station management as a radio market pro, purposely running formats that others ignore so he can be the sole provider of these smaller, but still profitable (to him, given his low fixed cost structure) formats. But for KSUR and his other niche stations, clearly broadcasting what he wants, to whom he wants, for as long as he wants (or is able), was the success in and of itself. He is both a radio and American entrepreneur success story. This is what I understand.

 

[davideduardo]

What I forgot to put in my original post in this thread is that your posts are highly informative and you really know your stuff.

I hope that Oldies76 will not be able to follow through on his threat against you. I pray for your safety.

And if someone else registers here and tries to make those same arguments, I hope they will have the ability to accept the fact that their ideas won’t work in radio and not try to call you or the other experts liars.

Thanks. One of the things that most of us learned earlier in their careers is that there is not just one way to do things. I've seen programming that I would never do "that way" be very successful, and that is a question of style. While radio is a business, it is also an art... and just as in a gallery there will be things that you like and other, well, not so much, in radio there can be a variety of ways to do different formats and presentations.

On the other hand, there are certain things we learn simply can not succeed yet we are willing to reconsider a bad idea after a period of time just in case the audience has changed, too.

Thanks for the kind remarks.

 

[Len Bias]

So listeners constantly give good feedback. Most are interested in knowing what makes this particular clock tick. Maybe now we can get back to that!

For what it's worth, as a long time reader of this site, I enjoyed the discussions with Oldies76, just because I learned a lot about how radio stations make programming decisions by reading responses to his arguments. But, by the end it clearly just seemed antagonistic on his part.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

And, to put this on the open record, I received what my attorney and I feel to be a "thinly veiled threat" from that poster saying "this is not over".

This forum is the only national radio board where listeners can interact with many people who are involved or have been involved with radio stations. We have on-air talent, owners, engineers, programmers, sales people; they are from big markets and little ones and every kind of format.

Usually, the exchange of information makes interested listeners better informed while there has been no lack of valid listener comments that stations should listen to.

On this later subject, recent ones about stations with improperly programmed automation systems that play dated material or superimpose multiple sources or have "off" timing have made me send some extracts to a number of people on my list. And the ones about stations not using the original versions of past hits is also on my personal checklist. And stations that use webcasting consolidators that can't do proper in- and out- of stopset timing is horrible; often station staff does not know because they don't listen to their stream out of the local market.

There are plenty more that have come off this board, even a case a while back of a station in a cluster I was involved with that was off the air because, it turned out, the PD had forgotten to load the log.

So listeners constantly give good feedback. Most are interested in knowing what makes this particular clock tick. Maybe now we can get back to that!

I am not Oldie's lawyer nor have I seen what you have regarding his communication, but from all of the years he has posted, his passion may lead him to post facts as he understands them inarticulately from time to time, but I have never known him to show any inclinations to threats or violence, as you and your lawyer seem to be concerned. He actually strikes me as a gentle soul. If that did happen, that is clearly unacceptable behavior.

My guess is the back and forth may have become a bit too heated and I am sure cooler heads will prevail all around in due course. Everyone is so quick to pile on him, but it is passionate listeners (consumers) like him that build any industry, but particularly the radio industry.

We should be encouraging thoughtful discourse about the industry we all love.

 

[david91326]

I am not Oldie's lawyer nor have I seen what you have regarding his communication, but from all of the years he has posted, his passion may lead him to post facts as he understands them inarticulately from time to time, but I have never known him to show any inclinations to threats or violence, as you and your lawyer seem to be concerned. He actually strikes me as a gentle soul. If that did happen, that is clearly unacceptable behavior.

My guess is the back and forth may have become a bit too heated and I am sure cooler heads will prevail all around in due course. Everyone is so quick to pile on him, but it is passionate listeners (consumers) like him that build any industry, but particularly the radio industry.

We should be encouraging thoughtful discourse about the industry we all love.

The problem is he was too passionate, and was an ignoramus on how the radio business works, despite being set straight countless times.

 

[michael hagerty]

The problem is he was too passionate, and was an ignoramus on how the radio business works, despite being set straight countless times.

The term, and it infuriated Oldies76 greatly when I used it referring to him and another since-banned poster seven or eight years ago, is "willfully ignorant".

We're all ignorant until we learn something. Resisting the knowledge that would cure the ignorance---that's willful ignorance.

I missed the threat. David, I echo Mastaclocketta's prayer for your safety.

 

[frankberry]

I think it's time to stop discussing Oldies76. He has been banned and, therefore, can't respond to this discussion.
Thread closed.