It sounds like the entire region had a pretty significant windstorm last night. It sounds like all of our AM/FM stations made it through without any issues. Did anyone go off air?
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Did anyone go off air last night?
- Thread starter fordranger797
- Start date
Hey bob! I was indeed in the area, but without power. With the extreme conditions here, I figured that somebody would have lost power at their transmitter site. It sounds like everybody made it through without too many issues.
KSER 90.7 has been off the air since the storm blew through. The Soper Hill area between Lake Stevens and Marysville, where the station's transmitter is, still is largely without power as of mid-day Thursday.
Very true, most of the local broadcasters have sophisticated facilities with backup generators. It seems like if anyone goes off air, it will be a signal out of the south sound or north sound. I know that KYYO has gone off air during windstorms before. It also makes sense that KSER ended up going off air for a period of time. I'm not entirely sure if KAFE has a backup generator, but I know that they lack a backup transmitter.
The Cougar mountain transmitter site, home to KNHC and KBCS and other commercial tenants is still on generator 2 days after the storm. This is also affecting a few thousand McMansions with great views.
Something new this year not seen in storms past was talent working from home losing internet, even though they had generators. Comcast has about 6 hours of run time on battery when the power fails. So even though the remote talent could power up the Comrex, the internet died just going into Morning Drive. Some talent had to go into the studios for the first time in months to track shows or do their daypart.
Something new this year not seen in storms past was talent working from home losing internet, even though they had generators. Comcast has about 6 hours of run time on battery when the power fails. So even though the remote talent could power up the Comrex, the internet died just going into Morning Drive. Some talent had to go into the studios for the first time in months to track shows or do their daypart.
I'm pretty surprised that some of the Tiger signals aren't using backup facilities (with generators) on Cougar right now. It seems like Tiger would be more susceptible to outages with its more extreme location and above-ground power lines. I never even thought about all of the talent that might be without power right now. While it certainly is convenient to be able to broadcast from home right now, there still are stations/shows that have have still been operating like the pandemic never happened.
Last edited:
"I'm pretty surprised that some of the Tiger signals aren't using backup facilities (with generators) on Cougar right now."
Huh...what. No one on Tiger is off the air now or during the wind storm. WTM only lost power for a few seconds, enough to start the generator, then it shut down after 30 minutes. The reason WTM stations have backups on Cougar is so if there is an issue with the antenna (Catches fire) or they are snowed out in the winter (not this year) they have a good redundant backup. It also comes in handy when they do the yearly tower inspection or do any tower work.
WTM has generators at both the Broadcast sites. Yes very robust backup facilities on the transmitter mountains.
Huh...what. No one on Tiger is off the air now or during the wind storm. WTM only lost power for a few seconds, enough to start the generator, then it shut down after 30 minutes. The reason WTM stations have backups on Cougar is so if there is an issue with the antenna (Catches fire) or they are snowed out in the winter (not this year) they have a good redundant backup. It also comes in handy when they do the yearly tower inspection or do any tower work.
WTM has generators at both the Broadcast sites. Yes very robust backup facilities on the transmitter mountains.
Yeah, I think I had a complete lapse of memory on this one, because of course Tiger would be outfitted with backup generators. Not sure why I thought a backup facility would be required during a simple power outage. While we're on the topic anyway, are they still using Kohler diesel generators at these sites? I'm sure that it's been discussed somewhere on this board before, but I've heard that diesel generating systems are no longer permitted as part of the design of a new transmission facility.
Stations located at WTM found out really quickly, that given the weather and snow can make travel to the site really difficult (and dangerous) when something breaks or burns up, you're potentially off the air for hours or even days. That's the main reason backup sites were preferred on Cougar.
As I understand it, generators are still allowed, but King County requires a critical sound enclosure to keep ambient noise levels below 66dB at 10'.
As I recall, the generators on WTM are Cat's. On Cougar they're Cat, Onan, or Kohler brands.
I wonder if solar installations will either replace or at least supplement diesel generators at some point? I know some stations are already using these, but it's not widespread. I would think with the amount of power needed to run a multiplexed system like the ones in pretty much any major market would require so much power that solar would only be workable during the day. This time of year, that would still mean the generators run probably 15 hours a day, but I'd be curious how well it would work.
There are several reasons why a conventional power backup is needed. Solar requires batteries at night and when there is an overcast or rain. In winter and in certain northern latitudes, a cost-effective battery may be unattainable since there are entire months of overcast in the winter at some locations. But battery cost is coming down... with the caveat that all the newer ones are coming from (SFX: drum roll) China.
Scott Fybush may have more information from his trove of transmitter site knowledge, but I believe I heard of a station in Ontario whose site could be inaccessible in the winter and had to rely on a combination of solar and a generator and a lot of stored fuel.
If I gave the specs for that, I'd want two generators that alternated for 6 to 12 hour periods, with separate fuel tanks and control circuits. The solar would have to have some kind of snow and ice removal, or it would be rendered useless. And for extreme failures, there would have to be a way to get there with a snowmobile or a rotary wing aircraft. And that sounds very expensive.
Do you have a personal favorite among genny sets? Several decades ago in Puerto Rico I preferred Onan, based on my experience as well as comparisons with other manufacturer's gear at other stations.
I've found the load size, budget, and environment around the generator dictates which brand. Personally, I've purchased more Kohler generator sets, mainly because they seem to have the best cost-to-performance. Onan's are generally more expensive, but I've not found them any better or worse than Kohler. Some prefer Onan because they're powered with Cummins diesel engines, where Kohler uses John Deere engines. Never found anything wrong with John Deere.
CAT's are usually my choice for a use in large installations like running loads 500kW and up. The CAT diesel engines are great and well supported. One downside, is CAT doesn't design their larger generators to work with critical sound enclosures, so generally your only option to avoid pissing off the neighbors, is to enclose the generator in a concrete building. Depending whether there is space in an existing building, could run the installation price up significantly.
Thanks for all of the information, Kelly. What size tank would you need to run a 500kW operation? At the site that I visited, both the power source (engine) and fuel tank fit into the actual building. I'm not sure if this is a common design in cases in which a much bigger generator would be required to run multiple facilities at once, or facilities with extremely heavy loads.
It depends on the load vs. run time target before refueling. Most generators run their most efficient (fuel consumption to watts out) at 70-80% of the generator capacity. For example; say the factory claims a 150kW diesel generator burns 10 gallons of diesel per hour at 80% load, and you want to allow for four days of backup power. 96 hours X 10 is a 960 gallon fuel tank to make it those four days of continuous use before requiring a refuel. Of course, you wouldn't buy a 960 gallon tank, but more likely a 1,500 gallon tank to allow some headroom in case you can't get a fuel truck up to the site for a refill within the 4 days.
Two of the four 2MW diesel generators in the basement of Fisher Plaza were fed by a 10,000 gallon fuel tank. The estimated uninterrupted run time was five days before requiring refueling.
Back when KBRD/KMTT used to be at Three Sister's Mt., that station ran on generator 24/7. Inside one of the transmitter building rooms, were two Kohler 100kW diesel generators. We would alternate which generator was on-line weekly, changing generators every Friday afternoon around 2PM. Those were unique units, because they used 2 stroke GM Allison diesel engines to reduce the number of moving parts that could wear out. They were made for what's called 'prime power' use. A diesel mechanic would visit the site every other year to do what was called an in-place rebuild on one generator, then rebuild the other the next. The fuel capacity were two 5,000 gallon tanks which were refilled every Fall before the snow started flying.
Wow, thank you for that information, Kelly! I never realized that it was possible to run a transmitter on generator power for an indefinite period of time. Using your example with the Three Sister's site, what was the cost differential between AC power versus the cost of diesel fuel? Obviously, I am not factoring in inflation of fuel prices, or the cost of potentially running power lines to the site. I previously worked with a radio group that utilized a single Kohler generator at their transmitter site (likely 100kW, like in your example) to power an older Continental Electronics system for a period of time. I never found out what the logistics were of trucking fuel to the transmitter site, or how long the generator could operate on a tank of fuel. Looking back, that would have been interesting information to know. What is the longevity of the fuel like in these large holding tanks? I'm far from an expert on diesel fuel, but I imagine that it degrades over time like regular unleaded gasoline. Many of us may be acquainted with "Stabil" as a fuel stabilizer in our gasoline powered appliances, but this fluid is not a permanent solution and gasoline still will go bad after long periods without use. With that being said, how do radio groups decide when to fuel up these large tanks, and how long will that fuel typically sit around before new fuel needs to be brought in?
If you look at any of the generator manufacturer pages, they show the models and the full load / optimum load / minimum fuel consumption. Then you determine how many days / hours you need capacity for and determine the tank size.
Also there are generators that run on diesel, gasoline, and gas. Some smaller stations (power wise) will use the same gas source as your gas barbecue uses. That way they can just run and get more tanks as needed, or if they use the bigger ones, have them refilled.
The most I ever ran on a generator was over 3 weeks after a hurricane in Puerto Rico downed the power lines to the site. It took that long to rebuild them and in the meantime we got tanker trucks to deliver and signed of at 1 AM and back at 5 AM to save a little bit of fuel. 10 kw AM, 4 lit towers, 55 kw generator.
- Status