Did anyone go off air last night?

[Kelly A]

Wow, thank you for that information, Kelly! I never realized that it was possible to run a transmitter on generator power for an indefinite period of time. Using your example with the Three Sister's site, what was the cost differential between AC power versus the cost of diesel fuel? Obviously, I am not factoring in inflation of fuel prices, or the cost of potentially running power lines to the site. I previously worked with a radio group that utilized a single Kohler generator at their transmitter site (likely 100kW, like in your example) to power an older Continental Electronics system for a period of time. I never found out what the logistics were of trucking fuel to the transmitter site, or how long the generator could operate on a tank of fuel. Looking back, that would have been interesting information to know. What is the longevity of the fuel like in these large holding tanks? I'm far from an expert on diesel fuel, but I imagine that it degrades over time like regular unleaded gasoline. Many of us may be acquainted with "Stabil" as a fuel stabilizer in our gasoline powered appliances, but this fluid is not a permanent solution and gasoline still will go bad after long periods without use. With that being said, how do radio groups decide when to fuel up these large tanks, and how long will that fuel typically sit around before new fuel needs to be brought in?

At the time, the total cost of running diesel generators as the only power source was a wash with the per-kW/hr utility power. The real expense that kept them on generator full time, was the significant amount of time and cost to bury power lines blasted into solid rock up the mountain, then paying to maintain those lines over time.

Regarding the longevity of fuel; modern diesel can sit in the tank for at least two years before needing some sort of additive to refresh the fuel. The ketones of the diesel start to break down over time, especially if water from condensation gets into the fuel. There are several types of fuel additives to replenish ketones and help disperse water. At Three Sister's Mt., fuel was never in a tank longer than one year, so there were no need for additives. The more important maintenance to a diesel generator that sits around, is weekly exercising to warm up the engine and evaporate moisture and regular oil and filter changes. At Three Sister's, the engine oil and filter were changed on the generator which had been running the prior week. So each generator got an oil and filter change every two weeks.

As David mentioned, some sites use propane (LP) or LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas). The advantage with those fuels is they never go bad. The downsides are; neither fuel produces the same amount of energy as diesel or even gasoline, so the engine must be larger to produce the same amount of generated watts. Larger engines are more thirsty. The second disadvantage with LP or LNG is getting fuel delivered to a hilltop or mountain site in the Winter if needed during an extended outage. You've no doubt seen propane delivery trucks on the road. Most LP/LNG fuel companies won't deliver fuel if the road is icy. Ask me about the KPLZ incident someday.

During a typical year, I've always made it a point to top-off my generator tanks yearly, usually in the Fall. Assuming there were no utility outages, the amount of fuel burned would just be from automatic weekly exercising of the generator. Obviously, if there was an outage of more than a few hours, the fuel truck would be called for an earlier top-off.

 

[LITTLEBOYBLUE]

Kohler uses John Deere engines. Never found anything wrong with John Deere.

Those probably work much better on the country format transmitters.

 

[bobdavcav]

Okay Kelly, you've got me curious about the KPLZ incident. Also, how often did Three Sisters actually have to be refueled? In your example of a generator running at 10 gallons per hour, it seems a refuel should have been in order every 40 days or so. Was it really just over a gallon an hour? Then again, the estimate for Fisher Plaza seems overly conservative, though those generators are probably a lot bigger than the one in your example.

 

[Kelly A]

Those probably work much better on the country format transmitters.

Welcome to Instant Rimshot

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[kenglish]

Farnsworth Peak ran on two generators for around 48 hours, a couple of summers ago. A mouse got toasted in the outdoor switch gear.
A few years back, a fire took down the overhead lines from Tooele. Ran three weeks until the power company was able to replace them with buried lines.
Nice when the outages are in summer...you can run downstairs every hour or so, in your PJ's during the night. It's nice and warm.

 

[Kelly A]

Okay Kelly, you've got me curious about the KPLZ incident. Also, how often did Three Sisters actually have to be refueled? In your example of a generator running at 10 gallons per hour, it seems a refuel should have been in order every 40 days or so. Was it really just over a gallon an hour? Then again, the estimate for Fisher Plaza seems overly conservative, though those generators are probably a lot bigger than the one in your example.

Back in the 80's-90's KPLZ was the only station on Cougar with an LP fueled generator. There was one particular Winter rougher than average. Lots of snow, ice, and high winds. KPLZ hadn't topped off their propane supply that Fall, so they only had roughly half a tank of a 500 gallon fuel tank. Power was lost up on Cougar on a Friday night, and by Monday, KPLZ was running on fumes. The road up the last stretch of Cougar was really icy, so fuel trucks couldn't get in. Especially a propane truck.

One of the stations had a Ford F350 dually 4X4 pickup. Monday morning, we loaded his truck up with 55 gallon barrels and a hand pump, and went looking for gas stations which still had power and working diesel pumps. After six trips to the one working Bellevue gas station, we topped off all the stations diesel generators, good for at least another three days before we'd probably look for fuel again. On the final trip out, we passed by KPLZ and didn't hear any generator noise. Uh oh.. I tried calling their chief engineer, but got voice mail. We were going to offer that if he could locate a rental 250 gallon propane tank, get it filled, we could tow it on a rental trailer to the site. Rather than accept our assistance, they never returned our call, remaining off the air for another three days before utility power returned. Unfortunately, that was the end of the Chief's long tenure there.

The two Fisher Plaza Generators were 1 Megawatt each. There are a total of four generators. Two under each building.

Three Sister's site was topped-off in the Spring, and had a major refuel in the Fall before snow. Usually in late September.

 

[davideduardo]

As David mentioned, some sites use propane (LP) or LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas). The advantage with those fuels is they never go bad. The downsides are; neither fuel produces the same amount of energy as diesel or even gasoline, so the engine must be larger to produce the same amount of generated watts. Larger engines are more thirsty. The second disadvantage with LP or LNG is getting fuel delivered to a hilltop or mountain site in the Winter if needed during an extended outage. You've no doubt seen propane delivery trucks on the road. Most LP/LNG fuel companies won't deliver fuel if the road is icy. Ask me about the KPLZ incident someday.

Of course, my experiences with generator installs I have done on my own ranges from Latitude 0° in Ecuador to Puerto Rico and Florida. None of those places had snow or ice threats (although my relay and FM transmitters in Ecuador were up very near the snow line, but not above it). For lower power stations and FM relays, being able, in a pinch, to go get refills at the local convenience or hardware store was an added plus.

 

[fordranger797]

At the time, the total cost of running diesel generators as the only power source was a wash with the per-kW/hr utility power. The real expense that kept them on generator full time, was the significant amount of time and cost to bury power lines blasted into solid rock up the mountain, then paying to maintain those lines over time.

Regarding the longevity of fuel; modern diesel can sit in the tank for at least two years before needing some sort of additive to refresh the fuel. The ketones of the diesel start to break down over time, especially if water from condensation gets into the fuel. There are several types of fuel additives to replenish ketones and help disperse water. At Three Sister's Mt., fuel was never in a tank longer than one year, so there were no need for additives. The more important maintenance to a diesel generator that sits around, is weekly exercising to warm up the engine and evaporate moisture and regular oil and filter changes. At Three Sister's, the engine oil and filter were changed on the generator which had been running the prior week. So each generator got an oil and filter change every two weeks.

As David mentioned, some sites use propane (LP) or LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas). The advantage with those fuels is they never go bad. The downsides are; neither fuel produces the same amount of energy as diesel or even gasoline, so the engine must be larger to produce the same amount of generated watts. Larger engines are more thirsty. The second disadvantage with LP or LNG is getting fuel delivered to a hilltop or mountain site in the Winter if needed during an extended outage. You've no doubt seen propane delivery trucks on the road. Most LP/LNG fuel companies won't deliver fuel if the road is icy. Ask me about the KPLZ incident someday.

During a typical year, I've always made it a point to top-off my generator tanks yearly, usually in the Fall. Assuming there were no utility outages, the amount of fuel burned would just be from automatic weekly exercising of the generator. Obviously, if there was an outage of more than a few hours, the fuel truck would be called for an earlier top-off.

Thank you for the incredibly detailed reply, Kelly. Admittedly, I am not familiar with the old Three Sisters site, but it makes pretty logical sense why they would run off of generators 24.7. We've certainly seen the issues that accompany underground cables running up a mountain. While it definitely sounds like a great deal of maintenance needed to be performed in order to keep these generators functioning properly, I imagine that it was worth it to prevent the need for an extensive electrical project. It does seem like diesel is the tried and true technology that is reliable in an emergency situation, while propane and LNG come with significant drawbacks. In a situation where you lose power to the transmitter site, I would rather have a diesel generator with a myriad of options for refueling than a more efficient gas that can't be delivered to the site.

 

[fordranger797]

Back in the 80's-90's KPLZ was the only station on Cougar with an LP fueled generator. There was one particular Winter rougher than average. Lots of snow, ice, and high winds. KPLZ hadn't topped off their propane supply that Fall, so they only had roughly half a tank of a 500 gallon fuel tank. Power was lost up on Cougar on a Friday night, and by Monday, KPLZ was running on fumes. The road up the last stretch of Cougar was really icy, so fuel trucks couldn't get in. Especially a propane truck.

One of the stations had a Ford F350 dually 4X4 pickup. Monday morning, we loaded his truck up with 55 gallon barrels and a hand pump, and went looking for gas stations which still had power and working diesel pumps. After six trips to the one working Bellevue gas station, we topped off all the stations diesel generators, good for at least another three days before we'd probably look for fuel again. On the final trip out, we passed by KPLZ and didn't hear any generator noise. Uh oh.. I tried calling their chief engineer, but got voice mail. We were going to offer that if he could locate a rental 250 gallon propane tank, get it filled, we could tow it on a rental trailer to the site. Rather than accept our assistance, they never returned our call, remaining off the air for another three days before utility power returned. Unfortunately, that was the end of the Chief's long tenure there.

The two Fisher Plaza Generators were 1 Megawatt each. There are a total of four generators. Two under each building.

Three Sister's site was topped-off in the Spring, and had a major refuel in the Fall before snow. Usually in late September.

This scenario definitely showcases the versatility of diesel fuel. Even in the aftermath of a significant storm, you can at least count on a gas station being open somewhere with a supply of diesel. I'm shocked to hear that KPLZ ran into that problem at a time when they were one of the most significant stations in town. Not to say that they are insignificant now by any means, but it's a pretty significant mistake for an engineer. Nobody can control natural occurrences, but I would expect that most engineers keep regular tabs of their stations to make sure everything is still functioning during/after a storm.

 

[Kelly A]

While it definitely sounds like a great deal of maintenance needed to be performed in order to keep these generators functioning properly, I imagine that it was worth it to prevent the need for an extensive electrical project.

I wouldn't say running full time generator was a great deal of maintenance, because when you got into the regular routine, it just worked. With few exceptions like the price of diesel, it was pretty easy to budget for. Fuel and maintenance schedules had to be maintained like clockwork, but for the most part were very predictable. The power quality was very good and consistent, so equipment failures or damage from lightning or power spikes/brownouts were nonexistent.

Because the generator from the prior week needed to be serviced, travel to the site in the winter months could be a challenge. The station owned snowmobiles stored in a shed down by the highway, but sometimes even those couldn't get you to the site. More often, we would have to catch a ride via helicopter. A couple times the mountain fog was too thick, so we landed in a diner parking lot for breakfast, then flew up when the fog burned off.

 

[RF101]

Somewhat related to this topi are those Northwest mountaintop stations that may not be running full-power because they depend on generators or operate under federal BLM/Forest Service site restrictions. What's the situation with KOHO in Leavenworth, Washington? They run 950 watts ERP with an HAAT of 623M but as a C2 they are allowed up to 2kw ERP. It's a hard-winter site as they suffered antenna damage and had to file an STA in 2018 for about 230 watts until the antenna could be rebuilt. The site is called "Blag Mountain" and appears to be on USFS lands.

This could be it tower-wise: Location: Blag Mountain

(The tower on the left is a four-bay, similar to the ERI LPX-4E-HW on KOHO's license)

 

[fordranger797]

I wouldn't say running full time generator was a great deal of maintenance, because when you got into the regular routine, it just worked. With few exceptions like the price of diesel, it was pretty easy to budget for. Fuel and maintenance schedules had to be maintained like clockwork, but for the most part were very predictable. The power quality was very good and consistent, so equipment failures or damage from lightning or power spikes/brownouts were nonexistent.

Because the generator from the prior week needed to be serviced, travel to the site in the winter months could be a challenge. The station owned snowmobiles stored in a shed down by the highway, but sometimes even those couldn't get you to the site. More often, we would have to catch a ride via helicopter. A couple times the mountain fog was too thick, so we landed in a diner parking lot for breakfast, then flew up when the fog burned off.

I suppose you get used to any routine, but it certainly sounds like quite a bit of extra work on your part to continually service these generators. Much like an oil change on my car, going through the steps isn't difficult, but I sure wouldn't want to do it every few weeks. Out of curiosity, is there anything remaining at the Three Sisters site today, or has it all been long dismantled? When you share the details about your experience at Three Sisters, it seems extremely logical why Cougar Mountain is the premier broadcast site in the Seattle area. Given that it is so easy to access (save for a major ice storm), stations broadcasting from the summit probably aren't inclined to invest a ton of money in snowmobiles and other heavy equipment. I believe you educated us all a while back about the many complaints made by Cougar Mountain residents, illustrating why it's a somewhat limited site. Nonetheless, it definitely seems like the easiest access point for a local engineer.

 

[Kelly A]

Out of curiosity, is there anything remaining at the Three Sisters site today, or has it all been long dismantled?

I haven't been up there in years, but I'm sure there are still land mobile and microwave systems operating from that mountain. 103.7 was the only broadcaster, with two other buildings and towers housing other services. It's a great site if you need South Puget Sound-looking North coverage.

 

[Kelly A]

What's the situation with KOHO in Leavenworth, Washington? They run 950 watts ERP with an HAAT of 623M but as a C2 they are allowed up to 2kw ERP. It's a hard-winter site as they suffered antenna damage and had to file an STA in 2018 for about 230 watts until the antenna could be rebuilt. The site is called "Blag Mountain" and appears to be on USFS lands.

I know of KOHO, but have never been to their site or have any intel on their TPO or ERP.

That's a big challenge with smaller market stations in general; the cost of building and maintaining transmitter sites in inhospitable zones. Many owners just don't have the up front capital to spend for the extra beefy antenna, ice bridges, building air handling systems, or backup power that will allow the station to function at full power when utility power goes away. For an owner, it boils down to weighing the potential for lost revenue vs. the upfront cost of maintaining a site built for the environment.
When a station is billing dollar-a-holler ad rates monthly, it's hard to justify spending that extra $250-300K in capital on the off chance a 200lb chunk of ice might damage or destroy the antenna, or that utility power will be out for weeks.

 

[bobdavcav]

Somewhat related to this topi are those Northwest mountaintop stations that may not be running full-power because they depend on generators or operate under federal BLM/Forest Service site restrictions. What's the situation with KOHO in Leavenworth, Washington? They run 950 watts ERP with an HAAT of 623M but as a C2 they are allowed up to 2kw ERP. It's a hard-winter site as they suffered antenna damage and had to file an STA in 2018 for about 230 watts until the antenna could be rebuilt. The site is called "Blag Mountain" and appears to be on USFS lands.

This could be it tower-wise: Location: Blag Mountain

(The tower on the left is a four-bay, similar to the ERI LPX-4E-HW on KOHO's license)

There are lots of stations not running full power for their class. I can think of several off the top of my head. KISM can run at least 55 kw at it's current haat, they only run 50. KAFE runs 60 kw when they could run 69, KXXO runs 37 kw when they could run 68, KIRO-FM runs 52 when they could run 63, and KPQ-FM runs 35 when they could run 48. I think KXXO had something to do with Canada, but that doesn't entirely make sense when 97.7 and 99.3 are both full C facilities while 96.1 isn't. Kelly, I think you may have answered this before, but I can't remember. Why are some of the stations on Tiger up there? I understand KNKX, KIRO, KHTP, and KBKS, but that's about it. Wasn't 96.5 on Cougar at one point?

 

[placebo1969]

Whatever happened to 100000 watt flamethrowers? I remember KISW and KXRX advertising that.

 

[Kelly A]

There are lots of stations not running full power for their class. I can think of several off the top of my head. KISM can run at least 55 kw at it's current haat, they only run 50. KAFE runs 60 kw when they could run 69, KXXO runs 37 kw when they could run 68, KIRO-FM runs 52 when they could run 63, and KPQ-FM runs 35 when they could run 48. I think KXXO had something to do with Canada, but that doesn't entirely make sense when 97.7 and 99.3 are both full C facilities while 96.1 isn't. Kelly, I think you may have answered this before, but I can't remember. Why are some of the stations on Tiger up there? I understand KNKX, KIRO, KHTP, and KBKS, but that's about it. Wasn't 96.5 on Cougar at one point?

And you know all these stations are running under their licensed ERP how?

Sorry Bob, you'll have to go back to a previous thread for the Cougar-Tiger explanation. I've already answered that question at least three times on this board.

 

[The New Chico]

There are theoretical height and power limits then there are real limits, caused by, y'know, other station's contours. Covid shrinkage excluded, most stations are going to run with the maximum power their license allows. They would run to class maximums if they could. Just sayin'

 

[fordranger797]

There are lots of stations not running full power for their class. I can think of several off the top of my head. KISM can run at least 55 kw at it's current haat, they only run 50. KAFE runs 60 kw when they could run 69, KXXO runs 37 kw when they could run 68, KIRO-FM runs 52 when they could run 63, and KPQ-FM runs 35 when they could run 48. I think KXXO had something to do with Canada, but that doesn't entirely make sense when 97.7 and 99.3 are both full C facilities while 96.1 isn't. Kelly, I think you may have answered this before, but I can't remember. Why are some of the stations on Tiger up there? I understand KNKX, KIRO, KHTP, and KBKS, but that's about it. Wasn't 96.5 on Cougar at one point?

I'm not an engineer, but I think it's important to note that all of these stations are within the border zone and have significant nulls in their signal to the north.

 

[bobdavcav]

And you know all these stations are running under their licensed ERP how?

Sorry Bob, you'll have to go back to a previous thread for the Cougar-Tiger explanation. I've already answered that question at least three times on this board.

I never said they were running below their licensed ERP, I said they were licensed for below the maximum ERP for their licensed class. If any of them are currently running at below licensed ERP, I have no idea.