Over-saturation

[davideduardo]

In other words, what solutions would YOU propose to give everyone a fair chance in LA? I vote for an expansion of the FM band of 60-100 Mhz, while skipping the specialty devices at 72Mhz as well as Channel 5.

To borrow an excellent term from Edison Research, we now have an "Infinite Dial" because of mobile devices and streaming. We don't need an expanded band.

Expanding a band is a dead issue. People are not buying home radios, and the average car is nearly 12 years old now... so if the new band were introduced, it would take over a decade just to get it available in half of all radios. And to open the band for applications via new FCC rules and to accept and grant applications would take several more years at best.

And your listing of stations includes a whole slew of separate radio markets: San Diego, Tijuana, LA, Riverside/San Bernardino,. Oxnard/Ventura, and Santa Barbara. "LA" is Los Angeles and Orange counties, not any of the separate markets surrounding it.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

It's not a very consistently good signal at night out there. Marginal at best. Similarly, it is pretty inconsistent at night by the time you get to Redlands or Moreno Valley in the Riverside/San Bernardino market.

Though, i can hear it up here, nightly.. though up here it fights with Victoria, BC's CFAX. in Wyoming, KNX was audible all night in winter

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

And then there's more...View attachment 2294View attachment 2295
In other words, what solutions would YOU propose to give everyone a fair chance in LA? I vote for an expansion of the FM band of 60-100 Mhz, while skipping the specialty devices at 72Mhz as well as Channel 5.

Stupid idea. It doesnt solve any problems by expanding the band.. people just cramew more into it and never get rid of anything in the "original band"
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Look at most of the X Band licenses..... 1300 WKQK cocoa florida still exists and so does it's xband sister, WOKB 1680..... didnt solve any problem of reducing interference and noise on the dial there

 

[ZantennaG1]

Stupid idea. It doesnt solve any problems by expanding the band.. people just cramew more into it and never get rid of anything in the "original band"
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Look at most of the X Band licenses..... 1300 WKQK cocoa florida still exists and so does it's xband sister, WOKB 1680..... didnt solve any problem of reducing interference and noise on the dial there

I do wonder what happened to the FCC's "five-year rule" where stations were allowed to test out their original assignment versus the x-band assignment, and after 5 years, turn in one of the licenses based on what they like best? Here, the old KJUA was deleted in favor of KRND (now KVAM)

 

[ZantennaG1]

To borrow an excellent term from Edison Research, we now have an "Infinite Dial" because of mobile devices and streaming. We don't need an expanded band.

Expanding a band is a dead issue. People are not buying home radios, and the average car is nearly 12 years old now... so if the new band were introduced, it would take over a decade just to get it available in half of all radios. And to open the band for applications via new FCC rules and to accept and grant applications would take several more years at best.

And your listing of stations includes a whole slew of separate radio markets: San Diego, Tijuana, LA, Riverside/San Bernardino,. Oxnard/Ventura, and Santa Barbara. "LA" is Los Angeles and Orange counties, not any of the separate markets surrounding it.

I suspected the subject of streaming would come up, and it's true. Today's internet is larger than life itself , however you brought up earlier that 84% of Los Angelinos (Is that the right demonym?) still don't stream. Will they eventually be forced to go along with streaming, and kill off traditional radio that much faster? I agree that any decisions we make right now will not take full effect until 10-15 years down the road, which only exasperates the current problems. (Although, I am partial to the idea that 5G and ATSC 3.0 could be the effective replacement)

 

[davideduardo]

I suspected the subject of streaming would come up, and it's true. Today's internet is larger than life itself , however you brought up earlier that 84% of Los Angelinos (Is that the right demonym?) still don't stream. Will they eventually be forced to go along with streaming, and kill off traditional radio that much faster? I agree that any decisions we make right now will not take full effect until 10-15 years down the road, which only exasperates the current problems. (Although, I am partial to the idea that 5G and ATSC 3.0 could be the effective replacement)

I did not say that Angelinos did not stream. The data I gave shows that only a tiny bit of the listening to LA area radio stations in the Los Angles Metro Survey Area is done via streams, while most is done from listening to the actual OTA AM or FM broadcasts.

And 84% of people in that age range listen to terrestrial radio stations via their over the air signals.

Yes, lots of people also spend time with streaming audio. But that is mostly to services like Pandora or Spotify and the like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_music_streaming_services

The point is that the audience, and thus the revenue, of traditional radio stations is still firmly based on the AM and FM broadcast signals. While this is changing, it's a slow process that is significantly based on the speed (or lack of same) with which new vehicles replace older ones.

 

[davideduardo]

Though, i can hear it up here, nightly.. though up here it fights with Victoria, BC's CFAX. in Wyoming, KNX was audible all night in winter

But the average listener in Redlands or Lancaster or Apple Valley won't put up with the noise, skywave / groundwave cancellation and fading that a marginal signal like that goes through.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

I do wonder what happened to the FCC's "five-year rule" where stations were allowed to test out their original assignment versus the x-band assignment, and after 5 years, turn in one of the licenses based on what they like best? Here, the old KJUA was deleted in favor of KRND (now KVAM)

wasnt deleted, they handed it in voluntarily.

and that rule was stayed when some licensees filed to keep it from happening

 

[asugeorge1]

To borrow an excellent term from Edison Research, we now have an "Infinite Dial" because of mobile devices and streaming. We don't need an expanded band.

Expanding a band is a dead issue. People are not buying home radios, and the average car is nearly 12 years old now... so if the new band were introduced, it would take over a decade just to get it available in half of all radios. And to open the band for applications via new FCC rules and to accept and grant applications would take several more years at best.

And your listing of stations includes a whole slew of separate radio markets: San Diego, Tijuana, LA, Riverside/San Bernardino,. Oxnard/Ventura, and Santa Barbara. "LA" is Los Angeles and Orange counties, not any of the separate markets surrounding it.

I think the best example for NOT expanding the FM band is when the FCC expanded the AM band to 1700 KHZ 30 years ago. All those new stations in the X Band from 1620 to 1700 AM have not been successful. I can’t think of a single one that has been successful. It doesn’t help that the groundwave of AM signals is severely diminished the higher you get on the dial and it also doesn’t help that the FCC populated the X Band with mostly graveyard signals. The only powerful X Band station I can think of is XEPE-AM 1700 from Tijuana, Mexico at 10,000 watts and even that station is not all that successful with it’s multiple format changes over the years. I think the only way the X Band would have been a success is if the FCC would have allocated stations to broadcast at 50,000 watts ND, granting them de facto clear channel status. But, that was never the point of the X Band and instead we get the jumbled mess that is the X Band in 2021.

 

[tomservo]

I think the best example for NOT expanding the FM band is when the FCC expanded the AM band to 1700 KHZ 30 years ago. All those new stations in the X Band from 1620 to 1700 AM have not been successful. I can’t think of a single one that has been successful. It doesn’t help that the groundwave of AM signals is severely diminished the higher you get on the dial and it also doesn’t help that the FCC populated the X Band with mostly graveyard signals. The only powerful X Band station I can think of is XEPE-AM 1700 from Tijuana, Mexico at 10,000 watts and even that station is not all that successful with it’s multiple format changes over the years. I think the only way the X Band would have been a success is if the FCC would have allocated stations to broadcast at 50,000 watts ND, granting them de facto clear channel status. But, that was never the point of the X Band and instead we get the jumbled mess that is the X Band in 2021.

All the X-band stations were granted the same 10 kW days/1 kW nights non-directional deal, and as far as I know only a few have deviated from that since the band's inception.

And, I'm sure there are several successful examples. WNRP in Pensacola with news/talk comes to mind, as does KCJJ in Coralville Iowa City.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

I'd bet most LA residents already stream their stations anyways, but I do like your idea of a 76-108 Mhz FM band, and it shouldn't be too hard to implement, right? It looks like LA did designate 99.1, 101.5, and 107.9 as LP only frequencies, which is nice for small-time broadcasters, but a drag for anyone trying to listen to anything on those channels. Hey...what if we make SiriusXM free for LA County residents only, and they must prove their registration every other year?

Get a contract to be on HD-Radio signals. But that idea would have been viable or under consideration two decades ago.

 

[CTListener]

All the X-band stations were granted the same 10 kW days/1 kW nights non-directional deal, and as far as I know only a few have deviated from that since the band's inception.

And, I'm sure there are several successful examples. WNRP in Pensacola with news/talk comes to mind, as does KCJJ in Coralville Iowa City.

WNRP doesn't show up at all in the published Pensacola ratings. A Nielsen nonsubscriber or listened to by no one? Iowa City doesn't seem to be a rated market. KCJJ is a no-show in Des Moines and Quad Cities.

 

[ZantennaG1]

I think the best example for NOT expanding the FM band is when the FCC expanded the AM band to 1700 KHZ 30 years ago. All those new stations in the X Band from 1620 to 1700 AM have not been successful. I can’t think of a single one that has been successful. It doesn’t help that the groundwave of AM signals is severely diminished the higher you get on the dial and it also doesn’t help that the FCC populated the X Band with mostly graveyard signals. The only powerful X Band station I can think of is XEPE-AM 1700 from Tijuana, Mexico at 10,000 watts and even that station is not all that successful with it’s multiple format changes over the years. I think the only way the X Band would have been a success is if the FCC would have allocated stations to broadcast at 50,000 watts ND, granting them de facto clear channel status. But, that was never the point of the X Band and instead we get the jumbled mess that is the X Band in 2021.

Considering how few x-band stations there are right now, 50kw would be quite helpful for some stations! (And of course you have frequencies like 1630 and 1700 where they're all bunched together)

 

[ZantennaG1]

WNRP doesn't show up at all in the published Pensacola ratings. A Nielsen nonsubscriber or listened to by no one? Iowa City doesn't seem to be a rated market. KCJJ is a no-show in Des Moines and Quad Cities.

There are always a few Nielsen "non-subscribers", either as stations themselves, or even in the audience.

 

[ZantennaG1]

wasnt deleted, they handed it in voluntarily.

and that rule was stayed when some licensees filed to keep it from happening

Yeah, Faux Pas on my part. I meant to say they turned it in. It was still technically the "deal" or rule that stations were supposed to give one up, but I see there are exceptions to everything in politics

 

[tomservo]

WNRP doesn't show up at all in the published Pensacola ratings. A Nielsen nonsubscriber or listened to by no one? Iowa City doesn't seem to be a rated market. KCJJ is a no-show in Des Moines and Quad Cities.

I actually don't know if WNPR is a subscriber or not, but I figure their long time with the news/talk format, and their ad breaks being full of local sponsors means someone is listening. And KCJJ isn't in a rated market but it seems to have a following and also isn't hurting for advertising, judging by some of the crazy long breaks I've heard in the past.

Is the only metric of success a top-5 showing in the ratings? If so that leaves out a ton of small town radio stations in unrated markets.

 

[TheBigA]

Meanwhile, not a day goes by when I see someone post the words "No one I know listens to radio."

If that's true, why are there so many stations? Somebody must be listening.

Responding to the OP, the FM band will not be expanding. It is what it is.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Is the only metric of success a top-5 showing in the ratings? If so that leaves out a ton of small town radio stations in unrated markets.

No, i know some stations whove had advertising clients for years and yes, sometimes decades

 

[ZantennaG1]

Meanwhile, not a day goes by when I see someone post the words "No one I know listens to radio."

If that's true, why are there so many stations? Somebody must be listening.

Responding to the OP, the FM band will not be expanding. It is what it is.

I think there isn actually a scientific paradox for that effect, but anyways, radio is alive and well, you just have to ask the right people.

Responding to the OP, the FM band will not be expanding. It is what it is.

I figured as much, but it's still tempting for the radio listener to think about. The question gets posted here every once in a while to a similar result, but it is proof people acknowledge the bigger problem at hand.

 

[R.D.P.]

I know for a fact, if we did expand the FM band, everyone and their brother would want to build a new radio station in those new spots. Once they did, many would come on here and say we have way too many radio stations now and most of these new ones aren't serving a purpose. It would be best to leave the FM band as is. That model is working very well for many of us that have a radio station.

Dan <><

P.S. The radios I own, don't go below 87.5 or above 107.9 FM. Hey I even own one now that has no AM band at all.​