KNX onto … 97.1??

[radiojomo]

If KNX really is bothered by those streams, they will inundate the operators with lawyer letters and claims, making the streamers incur legal costs. The idea is to make the expense of keeping the name so high that they quit using it.

Absolutely. Audacy has a trademark on "KNX" in relation to anything related to "radio broadcast services."

This means "KNX FM 93 - The Mellow Sound" is technically in violation of Audacy's trademark.

If Audacy wanted to pursue legal action, they could. But the key is really just filing a "cease and desist" and threatening legal action, which should be enough for the streamer to change their name.

This may actually end up happening, considering a search for "KNX FM" leads to the "The Mellow Sound" website as the #1 result. SEO is everything.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Absolutely. Audacy has a trademark on "KNX" in relation to anything related to "radio broadcast services."

This means "KNX FM 93 - The Mellow Sound" is technically in violation of Audacy's trademark.

If Audacy wanted to pursue legal action, they could. But the key is really just filing a "cease and desist" and threatening legal action, which should be enough for the streamer to change their name.

This may actually end up happening, considering a search for "KNX FM" leads to the "The Mellow Sound" website as the #1 result. SEO is everything.

Whenever radio is given the choice between doing the right thing and not, you can always be sure to be disappointed.

"KNX" and "KNX-FM" are two completely different things just as CBS O&O "KNXT" was in use at the time for Channel 2, but all had nothing to do with either of the other (in a formatted broadcast product sense, I realize they may have shared newsroom and other physical assets). Point is, all three were something completely different ,and were differentiated as such in the market by their calls.

The old KNX-FM was one of the truly great radio stations in LA radio history. It has a specific name and a meaning for many people. When the two streaming sites came along to honor that heritage, they would naturally use the only identifier, "KNX-FM" that would succinctly communicate their product to the intended audience, referencing calls that had not been in use in decades and thus generally minding their own business.

But here comes BIG RADIO, ready to use all of its attorneys and resources to take away the only thing the little streamers had, the old name, and commandeer it for themselves to reference an entirely new and different product on a different frequency and say "We bought the rights so you have to do something else". I am sure this is legally allowable and some may even think it is a good thing. I think it would be morally deficient and, as usual, a self-inflicted wound to the concept of radio heritage (which I know doesn't really exist, save the posts).

I have long maintained people don't love radio because radio gives them nothing to love. This is but another example.

 

[davideduardo]

Whenever radio is given the choice between doing the right thing and not, you can always be sure to be disappointed.

In this case, morally and legally KNX's owners have rights to the call letters, assigned to the station in the first decade of radio broadcasting.

The fault is on the people who appropriated the KNX name for a stream, with no FCC or business rights to that name.

"They won't notice and they won't care" is not a legal defense. The tribute site operators should have gotten a consent from the licensee of KNX to use that brand. Apparently, they did not.

 

[michael hagerty]

Whenever radio is given the choice between doing the right thing and not, you can always be sure to be disappointed.

"KNX" and "KNX-FM" are two completely different things just as CBS O&O "KNXT" was in use at the time for Channel 2, but all had nothing to do with either of the other (in a formatted broadcast product sense, I realize they may have shared newsroom and other physical assets). Point is, all three were something completely different ,and were differentiated as such in the market by their calls.

The old KNX-FM was one of the truly great radio stations in LA radio history. It has a specific name and a meaning for many people. When the two streaming sites came along to honor that heritage, they would naturally use the only identifier, "KNX-FM" that would succinctly communicate their product to the intended audience, referencing calls that had not been in use in decades and thus generally minding their own business.

But here comes BIG RADIO, ready to use all of its attorneys and resources to take away the only thing the little streamers had, the old name, and commandeer it for themselves to reference an entirely new and different product on a different frequency and say "We bought the rights so you have to do something else". I am sure this is legally allowable and some may even think it is a good thing. I think it would be morally deficient and, as usual, a self-inflicted wound to the concept of radio heritage (which I know doesn't really exist, save the posts).

I have long maintained people don't love radio because radio gives them nothing to love. This is but another example.

Audacy, to my knowledge, hasn’t done anything, much less the wrong thing.

It is by no means certain that the TWO operators of TWO KNX-FM tribute streams (one, a former KNX-FM PD, the other, the son of a former KNX-FM sales exec) will be asked to change or stop. And I’m not advocating that it should happen.

I merely raised the legitimate question of what might happen now that there is once again a KNX-FM on the air, and Audacy could make a reasonable case that they need to control the image of those call letters.

Will they? Who knows? They may assess the listener base of the two streamers and decide it’s not worth the time or trouble.

But it’s a legitimate question—-one that was moot as long as there was no active on-air KNX-FM, and one that would have been moot had the two streamers chosen to brand their services differently when they launched in 2018.

These are the kinds of discussions, among others, this board is here for.

Sixteen days ago, people were dismissing the idea of a call letter change and the potential conflict with the streamers. This is why I brought it up.

 

[sdwulfdawg]

It would be really sad if KNX dropped their broadcast on 1070. KNX, as well as KFI, are the only real sources of radio news here in San Diego. KOGO and KGB-AM (formerly KFMB) are now mostly talkers and do the MINIMAL of news programming. KOGO is so lame that it took them HOURS to infamously to go on the air after the mass synagogue shooting in Poway a couple of years ago.....and they were located, at the most, 20 minutes from the site of the mass shooting.

KOGO and KGB-AM is the official station of colonblow and gold brick here in San Diego.

 

[TheBigA]

Whenever radio is given the choice between doing the right thing and not, you can always be sure to be disappointed.

It depends. "Radio" is a big thing, and you're lumping one group of stations in with everything else.

I have long maintained people don't love radio because radio gives them nothing to love. This is but another example.

People love what they love. If radio gives it to them for free, then it's great. When it doesn't, they complain.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done anything to these indie streams. Right? So why are you already getting angry?

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

In this case, morally and legally KNX's owners have rights to the call letters, assigned to the station in the first decade of radio broadcasting.

The fault is on the people who appropriated the KNX name for a stream, with no FCC or business rights to that name.

"They won't notice and they won't care" is not a legal defense. The tribute site operators should have gotten a consent from the licensee of KNX to use that brand. Apparently, they did not.

The idea that a company is “doing the wrong thing” by advancing perfectly legal intellectual property rights is baffling.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Audacy, to my knowledge, hasn’t done anything, much less the wrong thing.

It is by no means certain that the TWO operators of TWO KNX-FM tribute streams (one, a former KNX-FM PD, the other, the son of a former KNX-FM sales exec) will be asked to change or stop. And I’m not advocating that it should happen.

I agree there is no evidence that they have taken any action against the streamers, but these guys are running such tiny operations, all it would really take is one C&D letter to make them stop, and I believe that will happen in due course. I agree with all who say Audacy bought the rights, it is theirs, they can do what they want.

The ideal solution is for the station to identify itself as "KNX News Los Angeles, 97.1 FM and 1070 AM". That tells the listener everything they need to know for today without trampling on the past station's legacy. I like the idea of making the calls for the FM "KKNX", if it is available. Nobody would care about the extra K, especially in a digital world where the station printout need not bee the same as the actual calls.

Radio couldn't care less about "legacy" though, so the chances of this actually happening are nil.

 

[asugeorge1]

It would be really sad if KNX dropped their broadcast on 1070. KNX, as well as KFI, are the only real sources of radio news here in San Diego. KOGO and KGB-AM (formerly KFMB) are now mostly talkers and do the MINIMAL of news programming. KOGO is so lame that it took them HOURS to infamously to go on the air after the mass synagogue shooting in Poway a couple of years ago.....and they were located, at the most, 20 minutes from the site of the mass shooting.

KOGO and KGB-AM is the official station of colonblow and gold brick here in San Diego.

I agree with you, KOGO has really cut their on-air news staff to barely anything. Same goes with their traffic reports. If it is after 6:30 PM, there are no more local news reports - everything is just national FOX News at the top and bottom of the hour. Of course, things were not always this way, there used to be “San Diego’s Afternoon News” and “San Diego’s Evening News.” IHEART has made a lot of cuts to the news and traffic staff in San Diego. KNX used to focus more on San Diego by having a reporter in the “San Diego bureau”, but that is gone too. I guess news just doesn’t happen anymore in San Diego!

 

[michael hagerty]

Sorry, ChannelFlipper. Can’t go along with that. KNX is a business and a brand and the future of that is on FM. There’s no point in promoting the AM. Anyone who would listen to it on AM already knows where to find it.

Changing the call letters—again—-to protect a streaming tribute to a station that peaked in popularity 45 years ago is not a solution, much less an ideal one.

 

[radiojomo]

Whenever radio is given the choice between doing the right thing and not, you can always be sure to be disappointed.

But here comes BIG RADIO, ready to use all of its attorneys and resources to take away the only thing the little streamers had, the old name, and commandeer it for themselves to reference an entirely new and different product on a different frequency and say "We bought the rights so you have to do something else".

I have long maintained people don't love radio because radio gives them nothing to love. This is but another example.

I don't think Audacy cares much about other streamers using the KNX trademark. They care about the impact it has on sales. So as long as it doesn't interfere with sales or overall brand awareness, Audacy doesn't care.

That being said, if there are enough advertisers that Google "KNX FM," happen to visit the "Mellow Sound" website and ask their salesperson why they don't see news on the station, Audacy will likely contact its legal team.

Or if "KNX-FM The Mellow Sound" is ranked higher than KNX News on a streaming media directory, there could also be some legal threats.

 

[michael hagerty]

I don't think Audacy cares much about other streamers using the KNX trademark. They care about the impact it has on sales. So as long as it doesn't interfere with sales or overall brand awareness, Audacy doesn't care.

That being said, if there are enough advertisers that Google "KNX FM," happen to visit the "Mellow Sound" website and ask their salesperson why they don't see news on the station, Audacy will likely contact its legal team.

Or if "KNX-FM The Mellow Sound" is ranked higher than KNX News on a streaming media directory, there could also be some legal threats.

Right now, if you Google “KNX-FM”, 11 results show up on the first page. Seven of them, including the top result, are for the two tribute streamers.

 

[TheBigA]

Right now, if you Google “KNX-FM”, 11 results show up on the first page. Seven of them, including the top result, are for the two tribute streamers.

Because it's been accessed from that search engine the most, because it's been available for 6 years.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

They did promote the change—-including a 90-minute special on their own air:

I don’t recall outcry, but LA was pretty used to just saying channel numbers for TV—-“Channel 2, Channel 4, Channel 7”. Kinda like it wasn’t the San Diego Freeway, it was “The 405”.

That’s not to say L.A. can’t be provincial—it can. The backlash when SavOn Drugs became Osco was so strong, Osco changed the stores’ name back to SavOn. Eventually, they sold to CVS, which changed them again and didn’t back down, but a lot of Angelenos still call it SavOn, and Rite Aid is still Thrifty to them.

And when ConocoPhillips bought the 76 gas stations, and changed the ball from orange to red, you’d have thought the world was ending. They changed it back.

That clip is interesting because I remember hearing about the FCC at the time of the transition said that the KCBS calls cannot be in multiple cities given that CBS had the call letters KCBS radio for 740 AM and 97.3 FM San Francisco all initially to respond to go after NBC radio which had the call letters KNBC-AM on 680 AM and KNBC-FM on 99.7 FM San Francisco and KNBC shortwave in Dixon, CA

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West Coast Shortwave

 

[sdwulfdawg]

Sorry, ChannelFlipper. Can’t go along with that. KNX is a business and a brand and the future of that is on FM. There’s no point in promoting the AM. Anyone who would listen to it on AM already knows where to find it.

Changing the call letters—again—-to protect a streaming tribute to a station that peaked in popularity 45 years ago is not a solution, much less an ideal one.

And that's the problem. Big business thought they would exploit the broadcasting industry to be their golden goose. In the process, they have killed it all by themselves. That's why a lot of folks listen to their favorite podcast or Spotify. They drove the listeners away allllllll by themselves. Now they are like they are in a sinking rowboat desperately trying to plug the leaks with a finger.

 

[CTListener]

The ideal solution is for the station to identify itself as "KNX News Los Angeles, 97.1 FM and 1070 AM". That tells the listener everything they need to know for today without trampling on the past station's legacy. I like the idea of making the calls for the FM "KKNX", if it is available. Nobody would care about the extra K, especially in a digital world where the station printout need not bee the same as the actual calls.

KKNX is in use in Eugene, Ore., on a 1-kilowatt classic hits AM and its FM translator, which has one of those alphanumerical translator calls. So maybe "KKNX-FM" might be available, but that call would have to be in the legal ID as well. And wouldn't inserting "News" between the call and city of license be forbidden in the legal ID, or can anything now be inserted there?

 

[michael hagerty]

That clip is interesting because I remember hearing about the FCC at the time of the transition said that the KCBS calls cannot be in multiple cities given that CBS had the call letters KCBS radio for 740 AM and 97.3 FM San Francisco…

You heard wrong or were misinformed.

CBS brought the KCBS calls to KNXT one year after the FCC‘s 1983 decision to allow the same call letters to exist on different bands in different cities and to be used by different owners. The only requirement became that the current owner of those calls give permission for their use elsewhere. Since CBS owned both KCBS and KNXT, that was a given.

 

[michael hagerty]

KKNX is in use in Eugene, Ore., on a 1-kilowatt classic hits AM and its FM translator, which has one of those alphanumerical translator calls. So maybe "KKNX-FM" might be available, but that call would have to be in the legal ID as well. And wouldn't inserting "News" between the call and city of license be forbidden in the legal ID, or can anything now be inserted there?

ChannelFlipper’s proposal wasn’t a legal ID, but how he thought they should brand themselves, bringing back mention of AM 1070, and changing the FM calls to (technically) make “KNX-FM” fair game for outside interests.

notgonnahappen.

Audacy has done what it intends to do. The stations (1070 and 97.1) share call letters, the branding is focused on growing the FM, and they have an exceptionally clean legal ID (KNX AM, FM and HD) before you get to the KRTH HD-2.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

You heard wrong or were misinformed.

CBS brought the KCBS calls to KNXT one year after the FCC‘s 1983 decision to allow the same call letters to exist on different bands in different cities and to be used by different owners. The only requirement became that the current owner of those calls give permission for their use elsewhere. Since CBS owned both KCBS and KNXT, that was a given.

Correct it was gaps in the argument I knew it was there just the gap of when the approval for call letters to be used in multiple cities was where the gaps are located.

 

[gr8oldies]

I agree there is no evidence that they have taken any action against the streamers, but these guys are running such tiny operations, all it would really take is one C&D letter to make them stop, and I believe that will happen in due course. I agree with all who say Audacy bought the rights, it is theirs, they can do what they want.

The ideal solution is for the station to identify itself as "KNX News Los Angeles, 97.1 FM and 1070 AM". That tells the listener everything they need to know for today without trampling on the past station's legacy. I like the idea of making the calls for the FM "KKNX", if it is available. Nobody would care about the extra K, especially in a digital world where the station printout need not bee the same as the actual calls.

Radio couldn't care less about "legacy" though, so the chances of this actually happening are nil

And that's the problem. Big business thought they would exploit the broadcasting industry to be their golden goose. In the process, they have killed it all by themselves. That's why a lot of folks listen to their favorite podcast or Spotify. They drove the listeners away allllllll by themselves. Now they are like they are in a sinking rowboat desperately trying to plug the leaks with a finger.

Was CBS some kind of Mom and Pop business?