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Dolby Atmos over the air?

The center channel and the .1 (of 5.1 source content) would be mixed equally into stereo L and R.
Huh? Then your discrete left and right channels suffer.
n the case of Dolby Atmos, labeled 7.1.4 (7 channels around the listener, 1 LFE/bass only channel, 4 overhead channels), the downmix to quadraphonic could be individually determined for each song or preset (as is the downmixing of Dolby Digital 5.1 to [stereo] Dolby Surround)
You've not answered the primary question I keep asking you: Who will pay Dolby for the licensing? In the real world, the mighty dollar is everything, not just because Kirk thinks its cool.
Any FM stereo broadcasting system will traInsmit and receive and output matrix quad encoded content with no modification and in the case of the SQ matrix, just listening to FM stereo matrix quad encoded content with regular stereo headphones does do partial quad decoding.
None of this is even on anyone's radar, let alone the Commission, nor the general public, any broadcast equipment or consumer electronics manufacturer, or even consumers. The reason is quite simple: Nobody cares, and even if they did, it's a money loser.
 
From a purely technical standpoint, you can't get four discrete channels of audio from two channel stereo. As the industry found out in the '70s, the results were unreliable and pretty dismal. Anything you do to juggle the phases around (and that's the only thing you can work with) will reduce or destroy the mono compatibility, making it illegal for broadcast in the USA.
Even if a system is developed to encode four or five discrete channels into the digital signal of an FM station, where is the market for it?
 
I did hear part of an announcement on KMBR FM (in mid-1972) that they were doing some experimental matrix quad broadcasts (using the Electro-Voice Stereo-4 matrix system which uses phase reversals for encoding).

IIRC, an official request was made to the FCC about needing additional approval to broadcast matrix quad encoded stereo (both SQ and QS use 90 degree phase shifts to do their encoding), the FCC replied that no additional approval was needed (I don't know if this document is online).

Louis Dorren, inventor of the USA standard for discrete quad FM broadcasting didn't like matrix quad much and used the phrase "stereo and a half" to describe it.

Newer matrix decoders (with logic systems) work fairly well providing surround sound.

A market would need to be created/expanded, many people have home theater audio systems w/FM stereo radios, they just have to be advertised to to push the Dolby Surround button when listening to FM matrix encoded surround sound (maybe from Dolby Atmos downmixes of remixed songs).

A listener survey would be needed to determine if an FM stereo station could charge more for its ads because it was broadcasting in surround sound (to pay for surround sound content).


Kirk Bayne
 
I did hear part of an announcement on KMBR FM (in mid-1972) that they were doing some experimental matrix quad broadcasts (using the Electro-Voice Stereo-4 matrix system which uses phase reversals for encoding).
That was 1972. A lot has changed since then. And how long did they try it?
A market would need to be created/expanded, many people have home theater audio systems w/FM stereo radios, they just have to be advertised to to push the Dolby Surround button when listening to FM matrix encoded surround sound (maybe from Dolby Atmos downmixes of remixed songs).
If you checked with the CES, you'd probably find it's less than one percent of consumer electronic sales. Remember the bygone era of Best Buy, Circuit City, or whatever, having their high-end listening demo rooms? Not only are most of those stores gone, but so is the interest in home theaters. At least, the market is much smaller than it used to be. Of course, none of this has to do with radio.
A listener survey would be needed to determine if an FM stereo station could charge more for its ads because it was broadcasting in surround sound (to pay for surround sound content).
But where is the surround content coming from? Your average radio station plays 10-15 songs an hour. Even with an average 300-400 song playlist, how many artists would be interested in recording their music in surround? Would the station want to pay the licensing fees? Would the artists? How about the electronics manufacturers?

If it's anything like the Quad experiments back when radio was the only choice, other than tape and vinyl, how many artists produced quad-compatible music? You could count them on one hand.
 
Dolby Labs Atmos surround sound remix project could supply the songs for radio.

Movies, TV shows, Gaming all started w/mono sound and gradually converted to stereo and then surround sound (Movies, TV shows and Gaming producers paid extra for surround sound, movie ticket prices and TV set and ad prices were adjusted to pay for upgrading [more time recording the Movie/TV/Gaming soundtracks, remodeling movie theaters, new TVs w/stereo sound etc.]).

The Movie - TV - Gaming mono -> surround sound transition took quite a lot of time, but it did happen.

Radio is stopped at stereo, it seems to me, with new surround music suitable for radio broadcasting and the existing FM stereo infrastructure able to support matrix quad/surround sound, it's time to broadcast and promote surround sound for radio (all of the downmixing and encoding could be done by the record company, the FM stereo radio station would just play the song thru their stereo playback equip.).

Regarding KMBR FM and quad, I don't know how long the experimental broadcasts lasted - I listened to WHB almost all of the time, sometimes, I would listen to KMBR on their Magnavox console stereo when I visited my friend.


Kirk Bayne
 
Remember the bygone era of Best Buy, Circuit City, or whatever, having their high-end listening demo rooms? Not only are most of those stores gone, but so is the interest in home theaters. At least, the market is much smaller than it used to be.
Veering off the stated topic a bit, I'm not sure the interest in Home Theaters has waned greatly, but that market has definitely changed, primarily due to lots of advances in technology, as well as the availability of so much information and product via the web.

One obviously doesn't need a ton of semi-pro grade equipment with amplifiers, VHS and/or DVD players, routers, a projector and screen and all the cabling, infrastructure and installation work to pull a really solid system together anymore, not to mention the sometimes elaborate universal remotes that were needed to communicate with it all to make it simple enough for many consumers to operate, which sometimes required programming. One can now buy a very large flat screen for not much money (certainly less than a projector, screen and infrastructure used to cost back in the day to get a similar sized image - and the picture quality now is markedly better to boot), and some modern 3.1 or "virtual 5.1" systems can sound incredibly good right out of the box. If one really wants 5.1, wireless technology gives one that option without running a bunch of cabling. Streaming allows users to watch virtually anything they'd like without the need for a dedicated playback device. While there will always be a certain market for high-end "home cinemas" where those customers might turn to an A/V installation company, for the average user, it's relatively simple to pull together a really solid system fairly quickly and easily, without paying a small fortune to do so now.
 
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Veering off the stated topic a bit, I'm not sure the interest in Home Theaters has waned greatly, but that market has definitely changed, primarily due to lots of advances in technology, as well as the availability of so much information and product via the web.
The majority of average consumers are fine with sound bars.
 
^^^
Truly Immersive Surround Sound


Perhaps create a new surround sound matrix by averaging QS, SQ, H, DS to avoid any intellectual property issues (all matrix quad/surround sound methods are basically compatible) for surround sound encoded FM stereo radio broadcasts.

In the early days (early 1980s), some home surround sound decoders (for movie soundtracks) avoided using Dolby tech, thereby avoiding the Dolby license fee, I see this Vizio device uses DTS tech, probably for the same reason.


Kirk Bayne
 
Mono and stereo compatibility is why it was approved for testing live on U.S. stations fifty years ago. End result was: Nobody cared.

You still haven't answered the question: Why would anyone do that? Quad was four demodulated discrete channels. 5.1 is five. In traditional analog multiplex audio, where would you put the fifth channel? There would also have to be a unique pilot to tell the receiver to decode surround. Oh, and since there are no generators or receivers to receive something like this, what manufacturer would build it?
Quad was rarely discrete channels, though. The matrices were full of adjacent channel crosstalk. 5.1 is a standardized speaker plan, discrete channels, and the center solves lots of problems.

There are no "generators" because we can't transmit the required bitstream bandwidth, and so no system has been standardized for audio-only broadcast. TV does it all the time, and there are billions of 5.1+ capable receivers in the world since the mid 1990s.

The two big technical problems with Quad was the invasion of two more speakers into the livingroom, critically placed, and the very tiniest listening window where it all worked, dead center amid all 4. And the matrix systems had unimpressive adjacent channel separation. Add that to the market confusion of which decoder to buy, which medium to buy (there were 4 systems on vinyl, 4 channel open reel tape and 4 channel 8 track tape) and a rather inconvenient speaker/listener plan, and it just never went far.

5.1 solves several technical issues, as we no longer use big full-range speakers thanks to the satellite/sub and bass-management, and with the LCR front arrangement, the phantom center issue of stereo is gone, as is the dead-center Quad problem. The Ls and Rs channels are now well separated, even in ProLogic matrix decoding. The technical issues that remained in the late 1990s push for multi-channel music related to the confusion of how to use the surrounds from a mix perspective (in the band or hall ambience), and if they should be direct radiators or diffuse radiators. But that could have been solved with metadata.

All of THAT stuff rolled into a whole new form of market confusion, though slightly less than with Quad (4 coding systems, with media compatibility issues). 5.1 has 3 primary coding systems, but they are invisible to the user, with decoding auto switched. 5.1 is still invasive in the living room, but speakers are smaller, placement is not nearly as critical as Quad was, and its highly standardized for film and video (standardized in ITU documents as early as the late 1990s).

When HD radio was being standardized, radio had an opportunity, as did the music industry, that just flew right by. The music industry was well into a downward spiral from file sharing. Two channel digital radio, at first impression, is not a day/night improvement over FM stereo. Multi-channel radio could have pushed the music industry into a big re-mix, re-release cycle that it needed, and multi-channel radio, in cars and in existing 5.1 systems in homes, could have offered that day/night improvement associated with justifying additional cost. But it didn't happen. 5.1 easily downmixes into two-channel stereo and mono, as part of either the Dolby Digital bitstream and metadata or the DTS bitstream, so we wouldn't have been making something incompatible.

But I believe what really killed the 5.1 music push was the perception that such a large market segment was on headphones that why bother? We didn't have a good cheap way to virtualize surround in headphones then, so it just flopped. Got to say though, that some of the 5.1 releases that did make it out were spectacular. Dark Side of the Moon is amazing, for example. Even Thick As A Brick is a revelation. There just wasn't enough of it.

Stand by for the Beatles in Spatial Audio and Atmos, though!
 
From a purely technical standpoint, you can't get four discrete channels of audio from two channel stereo. As the industry found out in the '70s, the results were unreliable and pretty dismal. Anything you do to juggle the phases around (and that's the only thing you can work with) will reduce or destroy the mono compatibility, making i

Well, Dolby managed to do it more or less believably with Pro Logic but like the other matrices, it's a kludge and there's only so much you can do with it. Once you do the 4:2 fold-down that's it; it's stereo with in- and out-of-phase components and there's no going back. You can mostly separate it into something resembling 4 crosstalky channels using in-phase and quadrature mixing, and maybe a little more with digital audio processing, but physics keeps it from producing four discrete channels of audio.

Even if a system is developed to encode four or five discrete channels into the digital signal of an FM station, where is the market for it?

There isn't. 6-channel music (SACD, DVD Audio) was kind of a nonstarter. There's barely a market for stereo FM these days, and with all these mono "smart-speakers" on the market these days, and crappy soundbar-friendly nearfield mixes in movies and TV, how much future is left for stereo in general outside of computer games and maybe headphones? The majority of people today born after a certain point, particularly easily-confused, nontechnical Americans who always use what they're told by the marketers like good patriotic consumers, probably couldn't and can't tell the difference between a stereo album on a properly set up and balanced system and a 128Kb stereo intensity MP3 stream on a cell phone speaker, except maybe "huh, something's screwed up, this sounds different on both ears".
 
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This whole amorphous discussion about failed quad of the past, or potentially surround audio for radio is a complete waste of time. It wasn't a thing back in late 70's/early 80's, so it's pretty easy to see that it won't be a thing in the 21st Century. The horse is dead, and a steam roller backed over the horse several times.
 
So why are you still here and discussing it, then? 🤦 :rolleyes:

There are a lot of people that are interested in it. You don't represent anybody's opinions, views or interests other than your own.
 
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a ton of semi-pro grade equipment with amplifiers, VHS and/or DVD players, routers, a projector and screen and all the cabling, infrastructure and installation work to pull a really solid system together anymore, not to mention the sometimes elaborate universal remotes that were needed to communicate with it all to make it simple enough for many consumers to operate, which sometimes required programming. One can now buy a very large flat screen for not much money (certainly less than a projector, screen and infrastructure used to cost back in the day to get a similar sized image - and the picture quality now is markedly better to boot), and some modern 3.1 or "virtual 5.1" systems can sound incredibly good right out of the box. If one really wants 5.1, wireless technology gives one that option without running a bunch of cabling.

"But I LIKE my $20000, 30 year old Frox System!" :LOL:
 
So why are you still here and discussing it, then? 🤦 :rolleyes:

There are a lot of people that are interested in it. You don't represent anybody's opinions, views or interests other than your own.
Because the fact that it's not a thing, nor will ever be, is my opinion.
 
Well, then, go find a different thread. Quit trolling. You don't get to try and kill an entire thread just because one or two people expressed views you don't personally agree with. Sorry, dude, that's not how it works. Just because you think a discussion of old tech or speculation of future tech is a "complete waste of time" or doesn't meet your personal specification for discussion excellence doesn't mean there aren't other people interested in it.

I give you the Frox Home Theater brochure from 1993....

Thank you! I was actually looking for that earlier today!

First time I ever saw Frox was on an episode of "This Old House" around that same time (1993 or 1994), when I was a geeky-ass little fourth grader. At that point I my buddy and I thought we had seen the future and that was it.

So, about 12 years later I got to help a guy in the neighbourhood set up a fairly basic Frox system he got off Fleabay for something like $500 shipped. (So state-of-the-art and ultra-high-end for its time, yet damn near valueless just over a decade later.) It didn't have the monitor, but how difficult is it to pull the spare computer screen out of the closet and hang it off the Frox's VGA output. IIRC his system had the controller (basically a specialised workstation PC), the audio and video processors and four or five speakers; no cables. Nonetheless, a trip to Worst Buy for a few miles of toslink cables later (and some time with a nail file and my bottles of vinegar and 99% isopropyl to clean the vintage-1990s Energizer AAA spooge out of the remote wand thingy-thing) by late that evening we got it working and even tuning local TV. That was also the first time I had ever worked with an optical SPDIF hookup.

He might still have that system for all I know. Last I saw he was using his 55" Vizio widescreen with it. Picture quality actually wasn't that great (you can really only blow 768*480 video up so far before it starts looking like crap) but it worked.

Definitely not high-definition video by today's standards, but even in the mid 20-ohs I thought it was actually pretty impressive that you could upsample NTSC video like that, using early '90s technology no less. Funny, though Frox was a complete and utter market flop, most of the concepts it pioneered (cough Tivo cough) or just outright invented made their way into even the trashiest of today's low-end consumer A/V products. Actually even this late in time it's still a fairly relevant and halfway respectable system audio-wise, since it uses pretty much the same tech and concepts as most halfway decent mainstream digital stereo receivers do today.
 
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So why are you still here and discussing it, then? 🤦 :rolleyes:

There are a lot of people that are interested in it. You don't represent anybody's opinions, views or interests other than your own.
You will see this guy saying these things a lot. I really don't have enough patience to discuss with him. The initial objective of this post is related to DOLBY ATMOS nothing related to Quadraphonic or whatever was used in the past. Dolby Atmos can be used on normal 2 channel audio. the whole process is done using HRTF and a mix of other algorithms. I don't know why the hell the quadraphonic thing was been bring up on this post.
 
You will see this guy saying these things a lot. I really don't have enough patience to discuss with him.
That's for sure. You started calling me names for saying SDR's are toys. Can't imagine how high your blood pressure would spike if I actually tried to insult you. Bet you're a lot of fun to be around.
I don't know why the hell the quadraphonic thing was been bring up on this post.
If you've bothered to look at other posts from Kirk, he's fascinated with quad, binaural, and now Atmos. Kirk is under the impression that if radio would adopt Atmos, that somehow listeners would return to being audiophiles like back in the 70's.
 
...he's fascinated with quad, binaural, and now Atmos.

Really just surround sound, IMHO, quad/surround sound (inc. Atmos) was/is a good idea, but was poorly implemented in the 1970s.
(I just bought 2 used CD-4 discs this month)

25 years ago, with DVD and Dolby Digital (and DTS), [5.1] surround sound became easy (and reliable).

Trying to bring the QS quadraphonic matrix (can be partially decoded with just an additional speaker or Dolby Pro-Logic 2 music mode) back for use w/any stereo distribution system (could be radio):

Both the old SQ and QS quadraphonic matrix systems can be partially decoded by just listening to the stereo (encoded) content with stereo headphones, similar in concept to using Atmos and Head Response Transfer Function processing for headphone listening.


Kirk Bayne
 
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Might be helpful:

Atmos is discussed in several sections.


Kirk Bayne
 
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