City vs. Suburban Translators

[Radio Wreck]

Greetings. Upon traveling the PA suburbs and throughout the state of NJ, it's been my experience that suburban AM stations are more likely to have an FM translator than a city AM station. In fact almost all of the AM suburban stations in NJ I listen to when I travel to have a translator now. 1160/104.1, 1460/92.9, and 1410/100.7 for example.

Philly and NY both have a handful of FM repeaters but a lot of these AM stations do not. Is this done on purpose? Is it because city AM stations tend to be more powerful than suburban stations that they feel they don't need to spend the money on an FM translator? Or is it because the FM dial in the city is so crowded that there isn't room for every AM station to have a repeater? Are there other factors at play?

Thanks in advance.

 

[wibgradio99]

As far as I'm concerned it stinks, every Philly translator now blocks all once listenable LV signals, especially going southeast into NJ. 95.1, 96.1, 99.9, 100.7, 102.5, 104.1 and 105.7 plus the new 92.1 which completely destroys WVLT.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Greetings. Upon traveling the PA suburbs and throughout the state of NJ, it's been my experience that suburban AM stations are more likely to have an FM translator than a city AM station. In fact almost all of the AM suburban stations in NJ I listen to when I travel to have a translator now. 1160/104.1, 1460/92.9, and 1410/100.7 for example.

Philly and NY both have a handful of FM repeaters but a lot of these AM stations do not. Is this done on purpose? Is it because city AM stations tend to be more powerful than suburban stations that they feel they don't need to spend the money on an FM translator? Or is it because the FM dial in the city is so crowded that there isn't room for every AM station to have a repeater? Are there other factors at play?

Thanks in advance.

Thats by happenstance... by virtue of maybe there was more room available in the suburbs.. but plenty of city stations elsewhere have them.. WLW in Cincinatti..KFYR in Bismarck, ND

 

[ZantennaG1]

Greetings. Upon traveling the PA suburbs and throughout the state of NJ, it's been my experience that suburban AM stations are more likely to have an FM translator than a city AM station. In fact almost all of the AM suburban stations in NJ I listen to when I travel to have a translator now. 1160/104.1, 1460/92.9, and 1410/100.7 for example.

Philly and NY both have a handful of FM repeaters but a lot of these AM stations do not. Is this done on purpose? Is it because city AM stations tend to be more powerful than suburban stations that they feel they don't need to spend the money on an FM translator? Or is it because the FM dial in the city is so crowded that there isn't room for every AM station to have a repeater? Are there other factors at play?

Thanks in advance.

It would be strictly due to the lack of space on the FM band. Nonetheless though, you should be able to find some big city AM's with FM translators, or possibly FM HD subchannels. Where you mention New York, I would point out that to get 880 WCBS on FM, you would turn to 101.1 HD2. In my neck of the woods, KHOW is on 103.5 HD2, KOA is on 94.1 (and for a while it was on KBCO HD3), and KDFD is on 93.7, etc. Because the FM band is a LOT more likely to get crowded, then it's not always feasible to plop a translator on FM. So, in a sense, FM literally can't save AM right now, without a lot of help.

Here's a quick rundown of a few NYC AM's and where to find it on FM/HD:
(*Quick note: 540 WBWD, 620 WSNR, and 770 WABC does not have FM repeaters in NYC proper, but WABC is on 107.1 WLIR and 96.9 on Long Island. In addition, 930 WPAT and 93.1 WPAT are not the same service).

AM Station	FM Analog Main signal or Translator	HD Subchannel
570 WMCA The Mission	102.3 W272DX
660 WFAN The Fan	101.9 FM WFAN FM/HD1
710 WOR		104.3 WAXQ HD2
820 WNYC		93.9 WNYC HD3
880 WCBS		101.1 WCBS HD2
1010 WINS		102.7 WNEW HD3
1050 WEPN	98.7 WEPN
1190 WLIP Gospel		107.5 WBLS HD2
1230 WFAS	103.9 WFAS
1280 WADO		96.3 WXNY HD2
1560 WFME Relevant Radio	92.7 WFME (several boosters)
1600 WWRL BIN		105.1 WWPR HD3

As we can see here, 7 out of 12 stations listed is on an HD2 or HD3, whilst only 5 of those are on an FM analog frequency. This is how crowded FM is in a big city like NYC.
In Philly, KYW is on 103.9, but it id also on an HD subchannel, and so is WPHT.

 

[ngriffin]

The problem with translators for big city AM stations (besides the lack of dial space) is coverage. 250 watts won't cover a metro area, but 5-10 miles of coverage is a better fit for the smaller reach and interest area of a suburban/small town AM.

 

[ZantennaG1]

The problem with translators for big city AM stations (besides the lack of dial space) is coverage. 250 watts won't cover a metro area, but 5-10 miles of coverage is a better fit for the smaller reach and interest area of a suburban/small town AM.

I feel like that line of thinking is what led to the concept of LPFM's. They don't need to cover an entire metro, just the specific community they serve, which allows for hyperlocal operations, and formats for different ethnic neighborhoods. But when you try to do that for an AM/FM translator, than the AM is getting the shaft In the larger cities. The FCC seriously needs to stop talking themselves out of expanding the FM band, it's long overdue. I mean, you can wait 12 years now while the transition occurs, or keep standing by for the next 50 years, and let FM eventually fail, and fall to streaming entirely. At least for now, putting AMs on HD subchannels is a good middle-of-the-road solution that gives the main AM similar coverage in big cities, but it's not as big of a solution as expansion would be.

 

[gr8oldies]

I feel like that line of thinking is what led to the concept of LPFM's. They don't need to cover an entire metro, just the specific community they serve, which allows for hyperlocal operations, and formats for different ethnic neighborhoods. But when you try to do that for an AM/FM translator, than the AM is getting the shaft In the larger cities. The FCC seriously needs to stop talking themselves out of expanding the FM band, it's long overdue. I mean, you can wait 12 years now while the transition occurs, or keep standing by for the next 50 years, and let FM eventually fail, and fall to streaming entirely. At least for now, putting AMs on HD subchannels is a good middle-of-the-road solution that gives the main AM similar coverage in big cities, but it's not as big of a solution as expansion would be.

Expaansion would be worthless as radios don't exist and no one is buying standalone radios.

 

[davideduardo]

I feel like that line of thinking is what led to the concept of LPFM's. They don't need to cover an entire metro, just the specific community they serve,

Remember, the difference between LPFMs and Translators is in two areas. First, LPFMs are non-commercial with ownership limits. Second, they are low power at a limited height.

A translator can be at any technically possible height but can't exceed 250 watts. Look at the Albuquerque translators that are up on the big nearby mountain and can cover most of the entire market from there. Or several of the Austin, TX, translators that compete in ratings with the "big guys".

 

[ZantennaG1]

Expaansion would be worthless as radios don't exist and no one is buying standalone radios.

That is how we got into this mess to begin with. No one was pushing very hard on AM Stereo, or requiring FM HD to be in car radios, or taking risks. The thing about this pandemic, is that employers are starting to require their staff to come back to the office full time as everyone gets vaccinated and the variants become less severe. That means people will have commutes again, in their cars. We got off on the wrong exit when car companies started making Bluetooth and Apple CarPlay and Android Auto the very first thing you see, and actually having to make an unnecessary amount of effort just to find AM/FM in cars. Instead of doing that stuff, just have each model year after a certain date (per se July 2023 or January 2024) include the new FM band, and advertise it well, and at least some people will start to take notice. No one has to buy standalone radios, they just have to purchase a new car, when they're ready.

Did you ever hear of when RCA released the CED? It was the most delayed (and failed) product of the 20th century, but RCA was genuinely shocked when the sales reports came in, and people bought thousands of units, and over a million discs. RCA was already in bad shape, and they released the VCR/VHS before the CED, which made things weird, but don't assume an idea won't work unless there is data to support that, and even then, you just never know.

Honestly, we should've expanded FM in the 1990's instead of AM. It is a lot larger return on the old investment. Humans have the ability to be overly optimistic, but they are the most pessimistic bunch too, and when it comes to radio, even fanatics like to throw the towel in early.

 

[gr8oldies]

OK, I've got The New 77.3, but no one is going to hear it until an entire car-buying cycle goes through. I don't see how it makes sense. Yes, the new 77.3 will stream, so what's the point?

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

They made Car Play, Bluetooth and the like available because people want it. More choice, more options. You aren’t going to just “make them” stuff something in a prominent position that customers don’t want there. The idea is just absurd.

 

[Mikey Radio]

We got off on the wrong exit when car companies started making Bluetooth and Apple CarPlay and Android Auto the very first thing you see, and actually having to make an unnecessary amount of effort just to find AM/FM in cars. Instead of doing that stuff, just have each model year after a certain date (per se July 2023 or January 2024) include the new FM band, and advertise it well,

Not a bad thought, but keep in mind that car manufacturers aren't in the business of giving priority to or being charitable to terrestrial broadcasters. They're in the business of giving the people who are in the market to buy a vehicle what they want, and loading the entertainment center with things that will help them sell cars. If all the sales staff hear all day is "Does this model have Apple CarPlay", "Does the car have the ability to act as a WiFi hotspot", "Can my phone or xyz device connect via Bluetooth", "Can I see the maps from my phone displayed on the dash and hear the prompts from my GPS through the speakers in the car", "Does this car have SiriusXM" and very few people are asking if it has an AM radio or HD radio or potentially one day an expanded band FM receiver, they really have no motivation to include those things, or give them prominence in the entertainment package the car comes with.

 

[ZantennaG1]

OK, I've got The New 77.3, but no one is going to hear it until an entire car-buying cycle goes through.

That's fine! The first ATSC 1.0 test was in 1997, and the mandate wasn't until 2009, and some stations have held out further than that. And yet, here we are. ATSC 3.0 came out in 2017, but I don't have one of those expensive tuners yet. But one day I will. (You might say it's not a valid comparison because 3.0 vastly improves TV, but having a 76-108 band will allow us to do things that our current band cannot. Also, cable subscribers couldn't give a single thought to 3.0, but then cable raised prices, and boom: cord cutting became a thing. This cycle should eventually happen to SiriusXM and Pandora and Spotify.)

Yes, the new 77.3 will stream, so what's the point?

You have a good point. It's still revenue for the station to stream, but for those who can't or won't stream, the experience will improve by having more room to work with in band, and having the width needed for a more complete digital output. Those listeners will be able to report their findings to others and renew interest in the station, for those on the fence. Win/win scenario.
Also, this is not a revolutionary new band that requires a lot of research/expensive work, because the Japanese have already succeeded at this. Some people might even already have radios that can tune down to the new band. 2 of my 4 radios do, but the car is trick to this working.

They made Car Play, Bluetooth and the like available because people want it. More choice, more options. You aren’t going to just “make them” stuff something in a prominent position that customers don’t want there. The idea is just absurd.

I never said "make them stuff something in a prominent positon" even if I implied that. Your local car salesman just needs to point it out as much as he/she talks about streaming/Sirius. I thought their job was to show you everything? If not, I want compensation for the pressure! (Kidding, LOL). And yet some won't even point out the trunk to put your groceries in! (Not kidding about that part).

Not a bad thought, but keep in mind that car manufacturers aren't in the business of giving priority to or being charitable to terrestrial broadcasters. They're in the business of giving the people who are in the market to buy a vehicle what they want, and loading the entertainment center with things that will help them sell cars. If all the sales staff hear all day is "Does this model have Apple CarPlay", "Does the car have the ability to act as a WiFi hotspot", "Can my phone or xyz device connect via Bluetooth", "Can I see the maps from my phone displayed on the dash and hear the prompts from my GPS through the speakers in the car", "Does this car have SiriusXM" and very few people are asking if it has an AM radio or HD radio or potentially one day an expanded band FM receiver, they really have no motivation to include those things, or give them prominence in the entertainment package the car comes with.

Agreed 100%, but just work it into the conversation. Advertise it on the windows, etc. It's true society has really changed, and they certainly know what they want; Car salespeople are supposed to be pushy, right? LOL. However, the world sometimes needs a change of language. Redefine what digital radio means, and sell it. Also, something had to pull me away from radio's status quo, that I would end up here. Maybe it is the monotony of my modern day options that made me seek out something different.

 

[ZantennaG1]

but no one is going to hear it until an entire car-buying cycle goes through.

Be sure to re-read what I put in my first post:

I mean, you can wait 12 years now while the transition occurs, or keep standing by for the next 50 years, and let FM eventually fail, and fall to streaming entirely.

Compared to the alternative, a 12 year wait for results is not as bad. And, so DavidEduardo says the average car is about 7 years old. So maybe it will be shorter than one thinks?

 

[gr8oldies]

The car salesman is actually going to say "it gets The New 77.3?". We've had 1379 threads here about expanding the FM band. It's not happening and it would do broadcasters no good to go there if it was implemented.

 

[davideduardo]

Not a bad thought, but keep in mind that car manufacturers aren't in the business of giving priority to or being charitable to terrestrial broadcasters. They're in the business of giving the people who are in the market to buy a vehicle what they want, and loading the entertainment center with things that will help them sell cars. If all the sales staff hear all day is "Does this model have Apple CarPlay", "Does the car have the ability to act as a WiFi hotspot", "Can my phone or xyz device connect via Bluetooth", "Can I see the maps from my phone displayed on the dash and hear the prompts from my GPS through the speakers in the car", "Does this car have SiriusXM" and very few people are asking if it has an AM radio or HD radio or potentially one day an expanded band FM receiver, they really have no motivation to include those things, or give them prominence in the entertainment package the car comes with.

And don't forget the fact that, still, more than half of all radio listening is not in the car... it is at home or at work. The issue for radio stations today is keeping existing radios in use, not getting people to buy new radios for a band that has no attractive offering in sight.

 

[davideduardo]

The car salesman is actually going to say "it gets The New 77.3?". We've had 1379 threads here about expanding the FM band. It's not happening and it would do broadcasters no good to go there if it was implemented.

And the idea is that AM stations would move to the "new" FM band extension. What is there on AM that would attract people to even care about this?

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

I can't believe this is a serious proposition. Is it a late April Fool's gag?

 

[ZantennaG1]

The car salesman is actually going to say "it gets The New 77.3?".

More like "This car has Satellite Radio with National Coverage, it's got Bluetooth and MP3, but when those signals break up in rural areas or near tall buildings, this new FM band eill still be here for you)

We've had 1379 threads here about expanding the FM band.

I didn't realize there were that many. This idea surely has some merit, then.

And don't forget the fact that, still, more than half of all radio listening is not in the car... it is at home or at work.

That is true as of today, however we should return to about 75-80% of people commuting to work, or the grocery store, or school, as you have stated in a different post. I like to be optimistic about that.

The issue for radio stations today is keeping existing radios in use, not getting people to buy new radios for a band that has no attractive offering in sight.

As others have said, the main benefit would be for AM's who get stuck on tiny translators. Not everywhere can be a big Stratosphere Hotel to plop translators on. There are a lot of people who wants to let go of the AM band entirely. I don't necessarily think we should, but ironically, the best way to do that is to give AM's room on the FM band. On top of that, I actually imagine that a lot of public broadcasters would be among the first to move, so they can test out those reading services for the blind, and so on.

It's not happening and it would do broadcasters no good to go there if it was implemented.

I can't believe this is a serious proposition. Is it a late April Fool's gag?

Honestly, I don't see it happening either, but it was worth a try. Those other 1379 threads probably should've told me that regular people are a lot different than what we'll find on here, and so ideals that work for Dxers and enthusiasts will likely be frowned upon by the rest of society. However, they also say that there is a general discontent with the way the band is run now. We'll have to keep throwing ideas until one sticks. That might be awile, because we shouldn't underestimate the human ability to be complacent with meh things just because it's attached to instant results. The only people who mortgage their future nowadays are football teams, not radio listeners. So for now, I would say April Fools!, but eventually we have to stop procrastinating and figure out something that will fix the band. It doesn't have to be expansion, and I'm all ears.

 

[ZantennaG1]

I can't believe this is a serious proposition. Is it a late April Fool's gag?

Since this, IYO, an April Fools Joke, I should mention some other benefits:
*More E-skip opportunities
*How cool would it be to have a name like 76.1 The Patriot, or 69.5 the S... uh, nevermind, LOL, or 80.3 the Racing Network?

I'm just fooling around here, but seriously, more room is worth the effort