The "Oldie" Debate

[michael hagerty]

It was neither smooth, nor jazz. What it was originally called was 'soft rock'. That label didn't play well either, because in surveys, people who liked rock, didn't like slow tempo or ballads. Those who liked slow tempo and ballads, didn't like it to be called rock.

Not even close.

The first big smooth jazz record---11 years before there was a radio format (hey, they needed time to build a library) was George Benson's "Breezin'":

...and that was only the first by virtue of making the charts, because George ripped off composer Gabor Szabo's 1971 original pretty much note for note:

Both Szabo and Benson were jazz artists, not soft rockers. And we can trace the line back even before '71---to much of Vince Guaraldi's material from the middle 60s and Stan Getz' collaborations with Charlie Byrd, Joao Gilberto and Antonio Carlos Jobim, which takes us back to 1962.

 

[Kelly A]

Not even close.

The first big smooth jazz record---11 years before there was a radio format (hey, they needed time to build a library) was George Benson's "Breezin'":


Both Szabo and Benson were jazz artists, not soft rockers. And we can trace the line back even before '71---to much of Vince Guaraldi's material from the middle 60s and Stan Getz' collaborations with Charlie Byrd, Joao Gilberto and Antonio Carlos Jobim, which takes us back to 1962.

Those are small examples. Majority of artists carried on the former SJ stations included crossover bands like the Doobie Brothers. Again, not smooth, and not Jazz.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

from my focus group 😂 Gen Z calls anything pre approximately 2010 an oldie, and that’s if they’re being polite enough not to use more colorful language.

Good lord old heads, understand your “definitions” have zero relevance today.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

from my focus group 😂 Gen Z calls anything pre approximately 2010 an oldie, and that’s if they’re being polite enough not to use more colorful language.

Good lord old heads, understand your “definitions” have zero relevance today.

I have to agree with that in practice I was thinking anytime before 2005 could be oldies. Personally I was thinking before 1990 but then again the Music Apps, Labels and Concert Promoters are in mid process finding the median demo for Gen Z Right now.

 

[kevtronics]

Majority of artists carried on the former SJ stations included crossover bands like the Doobie Brothers. Again, not smooth, and not Jazz.

Nowadays, that's called "Yacht Rock". SiriusXM has a channel playing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacht_rock

 

[davideduardo]

from my focus group 😂 Gen Z calls anything pre approximately 2010 an oldie, and that’s if they’re being polite enough not to use more colorful language.

Good lord old heads, understand your “definitions” have zero relevance today.

You are right...

Each generation has its own terms based on their frame of reference.

Today's generations call oldies "old school". It means the songs they like back in the day but only want to hear occasionally today.

And we have to remember that many of the terms we use in radio are insider names, used to identify to advertisers what we are. For example, "oldies" means formats based on music that appeals to those over 55 which won't get on ad buys for the most part. "Classic Hits" means a 35-54 format. It does not matter which songs they play... what matters is the audience they deliver to advertisers.

 

[michael hagerty]

Those are small examples. Majority of artists carried on the former SJ stations included crossover bands like the Doobie Brothers. Again, not smooth, and not Jazz.

I see the problem:

Some smooth jazz from the era is good.

(then you said):

It was neither smooth, nor jazz. What it was originally called was 'soft rock'. That label didn't play well either, because in surveys, people who liked rock, didn't like slow tempo or ballads. Those who liked slow tempo and ballads, didn't like it to be called rock.

Vchimpanzee was referring to the music---you were referring to the format.

But the fact is that, in the beginning (after morphing from "New Age"), Smooth Jazz (the format) was largely smooth jazz (the music). It expanded its library to include arguably (some more than others) compatible sounds from soft-rockers like the Doobie Brothers and R&B ballads in an effort to broaden its listener base beyond 35+ women with a high tolerance for instrumentals.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

I see no reason to object to the term "oldie" being used in a broader way than a label for a radio format featuring mostly 1960s acts.

Especially since that radio format is on the verge of extinction...

 

[Kelly A]

Especially since that radio format is on the verge of extinction...

Thankfully.

 

[Greg Goodfellow]

Thankfully.

Hey, now. Perhaps ‘extinction’ for commercial radio, but it will probably be kept alive on non commercial radio. I volunteer at an LPFM station that proudly airs such music. With so many streams devoted to such music, it will no doubt be around for a long time.

 

[Kelly A]

Hey, now. Perhaps ‘extinction’ for commercial radio, but it will probably be kept alive on non commercial radio. I volunteer at an LPFM station that proudly airs such music. With so many streams devoted to such music, it will no doubt be around for a long time.

And that's what I meant. For commercial purposes, SJ as a format is a confirmed money loser. Probably fine for LPFM sandboxes.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

You are right...

Each generation has its own terms based on their frame of reference.

Today's generations call oldies "old school". It means the songs they like back in the day but only want to hear occasionally today.

And we have to remember that many of the terms we use in radio are insider names, used to identify to advertisers what we are. For example, "oldies" means formats based on music that appeals to those over 55 which won't get on ad buys for the most part. "Classic Hits" means a 35-54 format. It does not matter which songs they play... what matters is the audience they deliver to advertisers.

And while I am not saying they can’t do the math, lightheartedly my observation is that musically, it doesn’t matter (and this is a generalization) whether a song is from 2010…2000…1990…1980 or 1960. It’s all in a bucket of “before my time.” (And yes, I get there is going to be situational nuance—the local high school marching band plays Sweet Caroline at the end of every home win…talk about before their time.)

 

[Kelly A]

And while I am not saying they can’t do the math, lightheartedly my observation is that musically, it doesn’t matter (and this is a generalization) whether a song is from 2010…2000…1990…1980 or 1960. It’s all in a bucket of “before my time.” (And yes, I get there is going to be situational nuance—the local high school marching band plays Sweet Caroline at the end of every home win…talk about before their time.)

And really this is a good point when you thing about it. For those of us who have spent time in the radio biz, or lurkers/hobbyists, get stuck on particular format naming conventions and labels as it relates to the assumed age appeal. Listener's rarely ever did, and certainly don't now. Either the music is new from the latest sensation via TikTok, or it's old. Now, consumers build their own playlists, or adjust their streams with whatever music vintage they want. The age of ubiquitous 'mix tapes' all in one's phone, is officially here.

 

[michael hagerty]

And while I am not saying they can’t do the math, lightheartedly my observation is that musically, it doesn’t matter (and this is a generalization) whether a song is from 2010…2000…1990…1980 or 1960. It’s all in a bucket of “before my time.” (And yes, I get there is going to be situational nuance—the local high school marching band plays Sweet Caroline at the end of every home win…talk about before their time.)

This.

Most people don't look up songs to find out what year they're from. They just know what's within their lifetime and in what context ("I heard it in a movie/commercial/whatever") and what's not.

This board is filled with people who care about stuff from before their time. We're (I'm one of them) weird.

 

[kevtronics]

And while I am not saying they can’t do the math, lightheartedly my observation is that musically, it doesn’t matter (and this is a generalization) whether a song is from 2010…2000…1990…1980 or 1960. It’s all in a bucket of “before my time.” (And yes, I get there is going to be situational nuance—the local high school marching band plays Sweet Caroline at the end of every home win…talk about before their time.)

I remember when "Wayne's World" came out in 1992 and Hot AC and even CHR stations started playing "Bohemian Rhapsody". They never mentioned it was an old song from the '70s. To my 12-year-old ears at the time, it was new, different, and unique, and the first time I ever heard Queen.

Same thing when the movie "Ghost" revived "Unchained Melody". Look up reaction videos on YouTube, and young women in their 20s today are still swooning at hearing the Righteous Brothers' voices for the first time.

 

[landtuna]

This is an interesting discussion.

Some of you may know I live with my 10 year old granddaughter (5th grade). I don't think she could explain what an Oldie song is but she definitely can pick out the songs of that era. Right now they are doing a school play about the Beatles. She not only knows who the Beatles were but can rip through a list of 3 dozen titles - some even I had forgotten about. Their play includes only 6 songs. I doubt there are more than one or two teachers in her school who were even alive in '65.

She also identifies Oldies songs used in TV commercials. She doesn't usually know the title or the performers but does place the 'sound' in the Oldies era. She never listens to the radio so she isn't picking it up there.

Several weeks ago she asked me to make her a recording of 50's songs - she wanted Doo Wop and early performers like Fats Domino, Rick Nelson, Brenda Lee etc. I included a couple of Jim Reeves' and Johnny Mathis' songs and she has fallen in love with that style too.

She is definitely unusual but makes me wonder how many other kids are like her? Unfortunately, unlike my generation, she doesn't have the luxury of what we called T-40 radio but that hasn't stopped her from using online sources like YouTube to find the Oldies.

 

[landtuna]

Same thing when the movie "Ghost" revived "Unchained Melody". Look up reaction videos on YouTube, and young women in their 20s today are still swooning at hearing the Righteous Brothers' voices for the first time.

They didn't call it "White Soul" for nothing.

My job is to go get the Kleenex box when that song comes on.

 

[vchimpanzee]

This.

Most people don't look up songs to find out what year they're from. They just know what's within their lifetime and in what context ("I heard it in a movie/commercial/whatever") and what's not.

This board is filled with people who care about stuff from before their time. We're (I'm one of them) weird.

I couldn't care less about "before my time". If it sounds good, I like it.

Big band music was on all the variety shows when I was a child and many of the sitcoms. And many Christmas favorites are that style. When the radio format came back, I liked it.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Several weeks ago she asked me to make her a recording of 50's songs - she wanted Doo Wop and early performers like Fats Domino, Rick Nelson, Brenda Lee etc. I included a couple of Jim Reeves' and Johnny Mathis' songs and she has fallen in love with that style too.

This is all good stuff.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I remember when "Wayne's World" came out in 1992 and Hot AC and even CHR stations started playing "Bohemian Rhapsody". They never mentioned it was an old song from the '70s. To my 12-year-old ears at the time, it was new, different, and unique, and the first time I ever heard Queen.

"Bohemian Rhapsody" was on my oldies station. I change stations for that one.

Same thing when the movie "Ghost" revived "Unchained Melody". Look up reaction videos on YouTube, and young women in their 20s today are still swooning at hearing the Righteous Brothers' voices for the first time.

I didn't know this, but only Bobby sings. It's credited to the brothers because Bill was playing the piano. He didn't realize they were going to use it, or he says he would have played better. But yeah, they've got good voices.