March Los Angeles 6+ Ratings

[davideduardo]

Not everything of "value" is associated with money. That may be a concept difficult for some to grasp - but let's take it back to what started the entire discussion -

In Los Angeles, Audacy's spoken word station KNX, out cumes ALL spoken word stations in the market combined. In your view "nobody looks at 12+ cume" because there is no value to it. Such broad, declarative statements should be made with great caution. Seriously.

Since buyers don't use cume...

Back in the 70's, groups like Westinghouse tried to sell "reach and frequency" which involved looking at cume and AQH persons and getting a length of listening which was used to show that long-listening stations needed fewer spots to reach more of the total cume.

Westinghouse even produced a reach and frequency slide rule which was widely distributed. No end result, though, as cume does not tell advertisers how many people heard each ad.

Agencies did not buy into R&F, and when the PPM arrived we did not even get an effective way to derive reach and frequency in that service.

And, in 25-54 KNX is 18th in cume. It beats KFI and KLAC and the other talk and sports stations, but it is still 18th overall. It averages about 20th in AQH persons, just ahead of the nearly-dead KROQ.

And ad buyers don't have a buy category for "spoken word", although they do have a category and often separate budgets for sports.

You see no value, but Audacy certainly does. That talking point is 100% on the lips of every single seller in the organization.

But it is not in the ears of buyers. "Cume" is not a salable quality for radio.

Radio does not sell cume because, historically, buyers looked at rating (not share). Now, there is a large trend towards buying impressions, which is AQH persons.

AQH persons allows cross media comparisons with new media. Cume is not a new media metric.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

Cume is not a new media metric.

False, and that exposes a lack of understanding of new media. "How many people were served my ad" (new media) is equal to "gross impressions". Gross impressions in new media is absolutely the equivalent of "cume reach" in old media.

 

[michael hagerty]

1. That statement is, I'm sure, demonstrably false
2. It doesn't change the reality that SOMEONE is looking at cume in a sales capacity even if that someone isn't you.

See David's comment above. You can't sell "We're 18th in 25-54." So you tell the best story you've got. In KNX's case, it's cume.

This is the sales corollary of Larry Lujack's old line about Top 40: "You say "We play the most music!" when your DJs are lousy."

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

See David's comment above. You can't sell "We're 18th in 25-54."

This is the sales corollary of Larry Lujack's old line about Top 40: "You say "We play the most music!" when your DJs are lousy."

And you too Michael are missing the bigger point. One cannot make such a broad declaration of "fact" that "nobody looks at cume" when it is demonstrably true that it is used in some selling situations which I have documented.

What is so difficult about accepting that there is more than one way to view a given data point? I certainly, one hundred percent, understand the POV that "cume" is not typically used as a sales talking point - and I don't disagree, but there are exceptions.

So again, what about that is so hard to understand and accept?

 

[michael hagerty]

And you too Michael are missing the bigger point. One cannot make such a broad declaration of "fact" that "nobody looks at cume" when it is demonstrably true that it is used in some selling situations which I have documented.

What is so difficult about accepting that there is more than one way to view a given data point? I certainly, one hundred percent, understand the POV that "cume" is not typically used as a sales talking point - and I don't disagree, but there are exceptions.

So again, what about that is so hard to understand and accept?

Let me clarify:

What David is saying when he says "nobody looks at cume" is nobody who buys advertising looks at cume. Certainly not at the major ad agencies that place buys in markets like Los Angeles and stations like KNX.

Might KNX's sales department look at cume? Only if it's the best pitch they've got. Because they've got bosses to answer to and they're not going to not try until a better story comes along.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

What David is saying when he says "nobody looks at cume" is nobody who buys advertising looks at cume.

If that is what he meant, that is what he should have said. It wasn't. Now he is (rightfully) getting push back for it from those willing to think for themselves. Rather than offering a mea culpa, the answer is to double down, obfuscate and twist the logic to hopefully confuse others.

 

[michael hagerty]

If that is what he meant, that is what he should have said. It wasn't. Now he is (rightfully) getting push back for it from those willing to think for themselves. Rather than offering a mea culpa, the answer is to double down, obfuscate and twist the logic to hopefully confuse others.

Ragazzo: I don't know who you are, or your background. I just want to say that 45 years ago, I knew who David Gleason was. The man knows more about this industry and how it works than anyone else I can think of. If you want to fault him for phrasing or point out when someone else needs to clarify, fine, but if you want to learn, he's the guy.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

Ragazzo: I don't know who you are, or your background. I just want to say that 45 years ago, I knew who David Gleason was. The man knows more about this industry and how it works than anyone else I can think of. If you want to fault him for phrasing or point out when someone else needs to clarify, fine, but if you want to learn, he's the guy.

I can respect that answer. I will just say this and then I'm walking away. Nine - that's the number of US presidents who have come and gone in my career. Yeah, I've been doing this for a minute - and still am. I've had my share of successes and failures (which I never feel the need to discuss). With each success or failure, I have learned something - but the most important thing I have learned is that NO ONE has all the answers, not even David Gleason. Do I respect his intelligence and experience? Absolutely. Do I find the "plain as the nose on my face" attitude of "I have all the answers, do not question me" off-putting? Absolutely.

This all started with ChannelFlipper saying:

It really takes a staggering level of hubris and incredibly narrow vision to take the position that "ratings data isn't good for any purpose if it isn't used in making a sale". There are other worlds besides yours and other people who use radio and its related information differently than you do. Really.

He has a point, and if you're a fair minded, independent thinker, that is not offensive in the least.

 

[davideduardo]

False, and that exposes a lack of understanding of new media. "How many people were served my ad" (new media) is equal to "gross impressions". Gross impressions in new media is absolutely the equivalent of "cume reach" in old media.

Not according to the MRC or even Nielsen. The first problem is that new media cume is not generally able to segregate by qualities buyers need the most.

Radio can, were anyone to want it, segregate cume on more than 20 variables such as age, gender, ethnicity , language, income, education and geography.

The second problem, this one unique to new new media is that most subscriptions are shared, so if I have an ad-supported service, it could be my grandchildren, children, aunt, wife or myself at any given time using such a service in this home. The age range is from 12 to almost 80.

The third problem, one of radio and TV again, is that cume reach in radio is not measurable in the same way that new media measures. Radio can only estimate reach & frequency as there is no diggable data that tells you how many times each person hears an ad. In part, because radio and TV measurement uses a sample (diary) or panel (PPM) which it projects into the universe. With web-based services the measurement is done based on every unique connection. The unique connections can be tabulated as to repeat visits to a site or even a song or ad.

"Cume reach" in radio is redundant. Cume is the total population reach in any of the varibles like age and gender. In fact "cume" is synonymous with "reach". Cume is how many people a station reaches in a category in a daypart, a day, a week, a month (However, once you go beyond a week, panel turnover affects the validity of monthly reach).

Gross impressions on the web can be counted because you know how many and which of the subscribers are connected each time a message is played. There is no projection into a universe as the universe there is the subscriber base with is totally quantifiable.

Which brings us back to the fact that web services are shared so there is no precise way of knowing who heard what message. You get a head count, but the company selling Depends does not know whether 50% or more of the people using the subscription are teenagers...

Further.... and this is a problem in metered radio homes today... we are returning to the multi-generational household again due to the pandemic, inflation and cost of housing. So a PPM home may have three generations in it, as well as brothers or sisters of the head of household. This destroys the usual media buyer models on data analysis because in such a household we don't know who is actually creating radio usage... and we don't know when granny is given the grand-kid's meter for a time.

Multi-generational households have always been usual and common among nearly all Hispanic groups, but finding it becoming prevalent among non-Hispanic whites is a very big change. And why do I bring this up? The PPM picks up household common area listening, whether the metered person picked the station or not. Streamed new media tends to be vastly more individual and personal.

This is all why Nielsen is forming work-groups to try to adapt its systems to the new way society uses media.

 

[davideduardo]

If that is what he meant, that is what he should have said. It wasn't. Now he is (rightfully) getting push back for it from those willing to think for themselves. Rather than offering a mea culpa, the answer is to double down, obfuscate and twist the logic to hopefully confuse others.

OK, add "in radio and at advertisers' offices" uses cume. It should have been obvious from the context. Happy?

Anyone else looking at radio cume is doing so out of curiosity.

My original point was that, other than click-bait, why would Inside Radio even publish a cume table for 6+ or 12+. If 6+ and 12+ AQH share data is useless in the business, cume for those broad demos is even less of interest.

 

[davideduardo]

And you too Michael are missing the bigger point. One cannot make such a broad declaration of "fact" that "nobody looks at cume" when it is demonstrably true that it is used in some selling situations which I have documented.

I've called on a client or two and worked with a station or two in more than 20 countries. I've never made a cume-based pitch and never seen a competitor make one, either.

In fact, in many countries where I have worked or currently work, there are ratings that don't even measure cume as they use coincidental or coincidental and same-day recall to measure.

What is so difficult about accepting that there is more than one way to view a given data point? I certainly, one hundred percent, understand the POV that "cume" is not typically used as a sales talking point - and I don't disagree, but there are exceptions.

Again, in 63 years in radio (and during 13 presidencies) I have never seen cume used. I suppose it happens, but so do total lunar eclipses... just not very often.

So again, what about that is so hard to understand and accept?

You are trying to make an abnormality into normalcy.

 

[Gregg.]

Let's get back to the 18-34 ratings. KTWV is tied with KIIS-FM for #1 in this LA youth demographic? Amazing.

The Wave has the oldest playlist in LA. Not just some 70s titles but even some 60s hits from Aretha, Temptations and Four Tops are heard. Sade, Luther Vandross, Sting, George Michael, Earth Wind & Fire, Lionel Richie and Anita Baker are core artists..

I know 25-54 is the station's focus. But who would have guessed that The Wave would do better in 18-34 than youthful, rhythmic hip hop stations like KRRL and KPWR? Or Reggaeton stations such as KLLI and KXOL.

The Wave is tied for #1 in 18-34? Next you'll tell me a Classical station was #1 in Charlotte in January. Actually that's true too. WDAV is currently #4 in this Southern city, Market #21.

 

[TheBigA]

Let's get back to the 18-34 ratings. KTWV is tied with KIIS-FM for #1 in this LA youth demographic? Amazing.

To me it's a statement on current CHR music. Because that's the focus at KIIS. They're playing "Big Energy" and "Woman" 124 spins a week. That's about once every 90 minutes. So maybe Harry Styles is worth playing that much. But Dove Cameron? I don't know. Meanwhile over at KTWV they're playing timeless music. Young people don't know how old those songs are because they weren't alive back then. The songs are new to them, and they're better quality than the current hits. Plus the rotation is not as tight.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I would like to make a point. An important point.

At the top of every page on Radio Discussions the verbiage "Keep your posts professional and respectful. It's okay to disagree. It's not okay to insult each other" appears.

I consider the questioning of David Gleason's explanations to be an insult, even if he is too polite to say so.

I also do not consider it a wise move to become argumentative with a moderator.

So I must suggest, in the strongest possible terms, that when one is presented with facts about how the ratings are and are not used in the industry, as David has many times, it is incredibly insulting to essentially tell him he is wrong, and it is incredibly foolish to do so every time the subject arises.

I consider a "discussion" based upon misconceptions that have been corrected numerous times in numerous threads to be the posting of "untrue statements" (more language from the top of the page). And I am tired of it ... probably as tired as some here appear to be tired of my resumed presence.

 

[jt99]

To me it's a statement on current CHR music. Because that's the focus at KIIS. They're playing "Big Energy" and "Woman" 124 spins a week. That's about once every 90 minutes. So maybe Harry Styles is worth playing that much. But Dove Cameron? I don't know. Meanwhile over at KTWV they're playing timeless music. Young people don't know how old those songs are because they weren't alive back then. The songs are new to them, and they're better quality than the current hits. Plus the rotation is not as tight.

Spot on explanation as to why gold stations have been seeing increasing numbers with younger listeners in recent years, as you can see with not only the success of KTWV, but also KRTH being tied for 4th in 18-34.

Meanwhile, KPWR has managed to bounce back to 6th 18-34, so it seems like they're starting to get back to some sort of respectability after struggling for a bit.

 

[victorres43]

Meanwhile over at KTWV they're playing timeless music. Young people don't know how old those songs are because they weren't alive back then. The songs are new to them, and they're better quality than the current hits. Plus the rotation is not as tight.

Which is interesting, considering that oldies hasn't been a viable format for at least a decade. WRME in Chicago, for example, does well 6+, but falters among 25-54, let alone 18-34. And stations leaning towards slower, smoother music have been a crapshoot among money demos.

 

[TheBigA]

Which is interesting, considering that oldies hasn't been a viable format for at least a decade.

But they're not oldies in the traditional sense. They're classic R&B, and they're mixed with other newer R&B, and that mixture resonates with this demo in a way that 70s pop doesn't. They dropped Adele in between Marvin Gaye and Bill Withers. This is not oldies presentation.

Also this is just one book.

 

[davideduardo]

Let's get back to the 18-34 ratings. KTWV is tied with KIIS-FM for #1 in this LA youth demographic? Amazing.

The Wave has the oldest playlist in LA. Not just some 70s titles but even some 60s hits from Aretha, Temptations and Four Tops are heard. Sade, Luther Vandross, Sting, George Michael, Earth Wind & Fire, Lionel Richie and Anita Baker are core artists..

I know 25-54 is the station's focus. But who would have guessed that The Wave would do better in 18-34 than youthful, rhythmic hip hop stations like KRRL and KPWR? Or Reggaeton stations such as KLLI and KXOL.

The Wave is tied for #1 in 18-34? Next you'll tell me a Classical station was #1 in Charlotte in January. Actually that's true too. WDAV is currently #4 in this Southern city, Market #21.

Several things could happen... one being that the music became relevant to younger people in LA for some reason. That is a long-shot, but long-shots are always worth exploring for the one time in 100 that they are true.

My suspicion is that the audience for the station tends to be older and ethnic, including many immigrants. With the pandemic, high costs of rentals, increases in food costs causing multiple generations to live in the same home, it could be that younger people listen to what the seniors in the home put on.

Nielsen has announced plans to consult with sociologists and demographers and others to get a better idea of how society is stratified today. What we may be seeing is one aspect of the changes Nielsen wants to get ahead of.

I can not see the format itself attracting a mass of 18-34's, so there is something in the panel or some social phenomenon going on.

 

[TheBigA]

I can not see the format itself attracting a mass of 18-34's, so there is something in the panel or some social phenomenon going on.

I think it's the presentation, where older songs are not played as older songs, but as songs that fit a mood and a style. That's what the wave did when it played smooth jazz. They mixed genres with songs that fit a certain mood. So people aren't tuning in for memories, but a mood. Maybe a romantic mood. Not unlike a rhythmic version of Sinatra. Let's face it: young people get in that mood from time to time. They break out a bottle of wine, light the fireplace, and snuggle.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I can not see the format itself attracting a mass of 18-34's, so there is something in the panel or some social phenomenon going on.

On the other hand, when I did an early version of The Eighties Channel in Albuquerque years ago we got nearly as good a share of 18-34s as we did 35-54s. Maybe it's that decade's music? I note that a significant amount of the gold on KTWV and KRTH are from that decade ... and of course there is also KOSF up in market #4 which started out entirely focused on 80s, and even when they broadened from that only added one song per hour each from 70s and 90s.