July 2022 PPM 6+ Mon-Sun, 6a-12mid

[Mediafrog+]

Sonics won't be back in Seattle, for one thing because there isn't an arena to accommodate them. That includes the recently renovated 'Nature-Promise-Sustainable-Compost-Arena.' The overall width of the original building left over from the World's Fair won't accommodate the required sight lines that TV for basketball needs.

I have no clue where you are getting that idea. There is no way the essentially brand new Climate Pledge Arena would be built with sight lines that don’t work for basketball. Camera angles are just fine on the Kraken home games I’ve watched, and they would be the same for basketball. The possible return of the NBA was always part of the planning.

Climate Pledge is an entirely new arena, except for the roof. I got to see a Kraken game there in person earlier this year, and was thoroughly impressed. And in a pregame walk around the arena I saw no sight line issues.

 

[Kelly A]

Climate Pledge is an entirely new arena, except for the roof. I got to see a Kraken game there in person earlier this year, and was thoroughly impressed. And in a pregame walk around the arena I saw no sight line issues.

It has the same issues that KeyArena had; trying to fit the sight lines for TV into an arena which isn't wide enough. The NBA and TV networks complained constantly about KeyArena when the Sonics still played there. It was one of the reasons the NBA sanctioned selling the team and moving it to Oklahoma City. Even now, Seattle has fought anyone who have intended on building a stadium which satisfies the dimensions for an NBA team instead, digging down to add more capacity and luxury boxes to the old Colosseum. They did that with KeyArena, and again with Climate Pledge-Whatever. Digging down doesn't widen the building.
That was always a bone of contention when I worked for the team; baseball and football were allowed to build purpose-built stadiums, but the Sonics were stuck in a building owned by the city that would block permitting, or sue anyone who intended on building a suitable one.

Oh, and where did I get that idea? I lived it for fourteen years.

 

[Kelly A]

I searched and searched Google, and it appears the last renewal was announced at the end of 2017, meaning the agreement took effect beginning with 2018's season. At least where I live, these deals tend to last five seasons at a time.

Yes, that's about right, which means they would negotiate the rights this season. Most of the time, that's kept pretty much out of the public eye with essentially silent/written bids. Neither radio nor teams want fan influence.

If 2022 is indeed the last season under the current contract with KIRO AM & FM, I have to believe iHM will make a very strong play for those broadcast rights. (Probably guilty of stating the obvious here.)

I would imagine so.

And of course, in Washington, D.C., one of their stations (I believe it's WBIG 100.3) recently landed rights to the horrendous Washington Commanders (the team with the worst owner in the NFL, in my opinion).

Yes Big 100.3 will be carrying the games. The Commanders are a joke in many ways, but they are the team for a large market including DC and Virginia with a lot of hard core fans. And that's the thing about professional sports teams, you don't have to be a consistent winner to be financially successful. Back in the day when the Lakers were dominant, guess who the most profitable NBA team was? The Clippers.

Where I live, at least two teams making deep playoff runs were heard on highly directional AM stations with lousy nighttime signals deep into the 00's. Very frustrating those few times I couldn't be near a TV set or in instances where I wanted to mute the national TV announcers in favor of local broadcast crews.

I ran into that a lot with KVI and KOMO carrying Mariner's games. At night, people on the East side would bitch about noise or rough reception. With KVI, it was day or night with listeners North of Seattle. I'd say the only station I'd ever worked for that hardly ever received reception complaints during Sonics games was KJR. But, I had a few tricks that I played which helped mitigate being on AM.

I do want to add that the fact a metropolitan area as large and containing as much wealth as Seattle lacks an NBA team is a travesty.

You have the 'Coffee Baron' Howard Shultz and David Stern former NBA Commissioner to thank for that.

The site lines comment regarding Climate Pledge Arena is interesting. Is that because the slope of the grandstands isn't steep enough, meaning the cameras cannot be located in a position where they can obtain a sufficiently panoramic view without the big video scoreboard getting in the way?

Regulation NBA stadiums have a particular degree slope of seating so that camera shots are more floor and action, with less seating in the shots during play. In the case of KeyArena; cameras would occupy a luxury box between the upper and lower bowl. The problem was, and still is, digging down without increasing the width of the arena doesn't decrease the seating slope in the lower sections. It actually makes it worse. The City of Seattle has always insisted in keeping the building lines of the original World's Fair-era Colosseum, so there's no way to widen the building and keep the same outer structure and look. Luxury boxes are a big revenue generator too, so giving those up to broadcast games, it's a big no-no with the City. Most modern NBA arenas have designated and designed camera locations. There's simply no room in the footprint of the Climate-Pledge-Whatever building to accommodate that without giving up permanent luxury boxes.

The WNBA plays there seemingly without difficulty, and some of those games are telecast nationally (albeit to small audiences; I've probably never watched more than 10 minutes of any of those broadcasts).

You're right, but Seattle Storm games only seat in the lower bowl.

 

[The New Chico]

Sonics won't be back in Seattle, for one thing because there isn't an arena to accommodate them. That includes the recently renovated 'Nature-Promise-Sustainable-Compost-Arena.' The overall width of the original building left over from the World's Fair won't accommodate the required sight lines that TV for basketball needs. That ship sailed for the last time when the Sonics left town. Another thing to consider is; expansion dilutes the other existing team values, which are through the roof since Steve Balmer paid over a $Billion for the Clippers. Remember that the NBA is made up of team owners. Expansion into more markets devalues their teams.
I do agree that if any city would be eligible for an expansion team, it will be only Las Vegas. For the reasons I already stated; doubt that will happen either.

Good Lo

Yes, that's about right, which means they would negotiate the rights this season. Most of the time, that's kept pretty much out of the public eye with essentially silent/written bids. Neither radio nor teams want fan influence.

I would imagine so.

Yes Big 100.3 will be carrying the games. The Commanders are a joke in many ways, but they are the team for a large market including DC and Virginia with a lot of hard core fans. And that's the thing about professional sports teams, you don't have to be a consistent winner to be financially successful. Back in the day when the Lakers were dominant, guess who the most profitable NBA team was? The Clippers.

I ran into that a lot with KVI and KOMO carrying Mariner's games. At night, people on the East side would bitch about noise or rough reception. With KVI, it was day or night with listeners North of Seattle. I'd say the only station I'd ever worked for that hardly ever received reception complaints during Sonics games was KJR. But, I had a few tricks that I played which helped mitigate being on AM.

You have the 'Coffee Baron' Howard Shultz and David Stern former NBA Commissioner to thank for that.

Regulation NBA stadiums have a particular degree slope of seating so that camera shots are more floor and action, with less seating in the shots during play. In the case of KeyArena; cameras would occupy a luxury box between the upper and lower bowl. The problem was, and still is, digging down without increasing the width of the arena doesn't decrease the seating slope in the lower sections. It actually makes it worse. The City of Seattle has always insisted in keeping the building lines of the original World's Fair-era Colosseum, so there's no way to widen the building and keep the same outer structure and look. Luxury boxes are a big revenue generator too, so giving those up to broadcast games, it's a big no-no with the City. Most modern NBA arenas have designated and designed camera locations. There's simply no room in the footprint of the Climate-Pledge-Whatever building to accommodate that without giving up permanent luxury boxes.

You're right, but Seattle Storm games only seat in the lower bowl.

You may very well be right about the width issue, Kelly. But money talks. The issue with "dilution" will be a non-starter once LV and Seattle ownership parties each pony up $3 to $5 Billion for franchise rights. Should make up for any dilution issues.

The basketball sightlines are good enough for the 2025 NCAA tournament, at least rounds one and two.

And I hope you understand I was being somewhat facetious about Jack being the backup for Kraken broadcasts. Who knows? The radio landscape will be much different, even in a few years. Maybe Bonneville will engineer a swap with one of the other group owners to secure an FM for the sports outlet. Bunch of different scenarios come to mind.

 

[Kelly A]

You may very well be right about the width issue, Kelly. But money talks. The issue with "dilution" will be a non-starter once LV and Seattle ownership parties each pony up $3 to $5 Billion for franchise rights. Should make up for any dilution issues.

Whereas I appreciate your optimism, the only way Seattle will get an NBA team again is: A) Jody Allen sells the Jailblazers.
B) That sale would only be approved by the NBA if a new regulation arena is/or agreed-to be built. Promise-Compost-Sustainable Arena, won't cut it, nor will City of Seattle permit a new building.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Regulation NBA stadiums have a particular degree slope of seating so that camera shots are more floor and action, with less seating in the shots during play. In the case of KeyArena; cameras would occupy a luxury box between the upper and lower bowl. The problem was, and still is, digging down without increasing the width of the arena doesn't decrease the seating slope in the lower sections. It actually makes it worse. The City of Seattle has always insisted in keeping the building lines of the original World's Fair-era Colosseum, so there's no way to widen the building and keep the same outer structure and look. Luxury boxes are a big revenue generator too, so giving those up to broadcast games, it's a big no-no with the City. Most modern NBA arenas have designated and designed camera locations. There's simply no room in the footprint of the Climate-Pledge-Whatever building to accommodate that without giving up permanent luxury boxes.

I still don’t understand your issues with Climate Pledge Arena. Have you actually been there and seen the place?

I reviewed all the photos I took of the arena bowl area before the game I attended, and I simply don’t see the problems you describe. If the camera angles work for Kraken games, why wouldn’t they work for the NBA? There are a bunch of arenas that are home to both NBA and NHL teams. Perhaps in a basketball-only facility you could get precisely the camera angles you want, but in the real world of multiuse arenas there will be small compromises. Those are far from deal breakers.

Climate Pledge Arena is a gorgeous facility that would be an excellent home for a new Seattle NBA team. And in all the NBA expansion chatter, I have heard absolutely nothing negative about the place.

I suspect that your deliberate misnaming of Climate Pledge Arena is due to some nostalgia for the previous buildings on that site, or resentment of the new facility…or you have an ax to grind against Amazon…?

 

[Kelly A]

I still don’t understand your issues with Climate Pledge Arena. Have you actually been there and seen the place?

I don't have any personal problems with Climate Compost Arena. I was part of the project team when the Colosseum was rebuilt to become KeyArena. Even back then, it was determined that by digging down one could possibly accommodate Hockey, but the NBA wasn't happy with the basketball sight-lines for TV. As I mentioned, it's because of the seating angles, especially in the lower sections, were not optimum for basketball.

I reviewed all the photos I took of the arena bowl area before the game I attended, and I simply don’t see the problems you describe. If the camera angles work for Kraken games, why wouldn’t they work for the NBA?

See my previous post, and what I just mentioned above. Just because you're okay with the way it looks, doesn't mean the NBA and TV networks which would cover games, don't have problems with it.

There are a bunch of arenas that are home to both NBA and NHL teams. Perhaps in a basketball-only facility you could get precisely the camera angles you want, but in the real world of multiuse arenas there will be small compromises. Those are far from deal breakers.

The facility that Ackerley proposed to build where the baseball stadium is today, would have been regulation proportioned for both basketball and hockey. The City threw up all sorts of penalties and threatened to sue if that stadium was built. Ultimately they want to protect the old Colosseum, and the business to the City therein. Climate Pledge is just another renovation like KeyArena was, that digs down, rather than going wider.

Climate Pledge Arena is a gorgeous facility that would be an excellent home for a new Seattle NBA team. And in all the NBA expansion chatter, I have heard absolutely nothing negative about the place.

That's because the 'chatter' you're listening to, is fans hoping that expansion will take place, and assuming Seattle will be eligible. There's a lot going in the background that you never hear. Shoot, there are things that went on in the background when the Sonics left town, that fans never heard. That's the way the mayor, City Council, David Stern, and Howard Shultz, wanted it to be.

I suspect that your deliberate misnaming of Climate Pledge Arena is due to some nostalgia for the previous buildings on that site, or resentment of the new facility…or you have an ax to grind against Amazon…?

Nothing against the building, I know it well. It's just a dumb name.

 

[MarkW]

Is the NBA front office steadfast opposed to any new arena being constructed in suburbs of major cities? (I realize even if the front office were supportive of such a concept, such a facility would likely face significant obstacles with regard to economic viability even if it knew an NBA team would be a prospective tenant.)

Completely agree that Mr. Allen & the Blazers would throw a fit at any proposal of an existing team relocating to Seattle or an expansion franchise being awarded to Seattle. But, that's just one owner. Mark Cuban's objections obviously didn't prevent the Sonics from relocating to OKC.

 

[fordranger797]

I’m a bit surprised to hear that the Climate Pledge Arena cannot accommodate the NBA, as I’ve also heard that expansion to Seattle is “very likely” with the new arena in place. With that being said, I think the overall construction of the arena was very well done, but it still was a tremendous expense to taxpayers. Additionally, I think it’s a major problem when parking is so limited. I’m glad that they were able to preserve the building, but trying to access it is already a problem (one that would not be as much of a problem if it were constructed in SODO instead).

Seattle is really pushing public transit these days. Personally, I just spent an entire year living without a car and using public transit (albeit not in Seattle), and can confirm that I will be very glad to have a car again. I don’t think pushing public transit (like the monorail) as a way to access the new arena is a recipe for long term success. They’re going to have to find a way to add some more parking or make the light rail connect directly to the arena (because from my perspective, light rail is the most tolerable form of transit).

 

[Kelly A]

Is the NBA front office steadfast opposed to any new arena being constructed in suburbs of major cities? (I realize even if the front office were supportive of such a concept, such a facility would likely face significant obstacles with regard to economic viability even if it knew an NBA team would be a prospective tenant.)

Not speaking for the NBA Owners; but a lot would depend on factors like; how far away from the market is a new arena? What is proposed ease of inflow and outflow of traffic? What about parking? Who is taking ownership/responsibility of the facility? What is the ticket, parking, team retail, and consessons revenue split? I could go on and on, but hopefully you see the complexity.

Completely agree that Mr. Allen & the Blazers would throw a fit at any proposal of an existing team relocating to Seattle or an expansion franchise being awarded to Seattle.

Since Mr. Allen is dead, his sister now owns the Portland team. If someone would make her an offer she couldn't refuse, she probably would take that offer. That said; if that offer crossed the billion dollar mark, then one would question the business case for such a purchase.

But, that's just one owner. Mark Cuban's objections obviously didn't prevent the Sonics from relocating to OKC.

Mark is a smart guy. He was just one owner among many who approved the move. And Commissioner Stern already had stacked the deck to move the team.

 

[boombox4]

OK, so here is another question for the experts: if sports stations do well financially with low ratings, why did Seattle lose a sports talk station during the last shakeup? KFNQ used to be CBS Sports Radio, and now it's conservative talk. I know why the conservative talk is there (it's been explained on here when it happened), but if sports makes so much money, where are there only two stations in Market #11 when there used to be three?

 

[Mediafrog+]

I’m a bit surprised to hear that the Climate Pledge Arena cannot accommodate the NBA, as I’ve also heard that expansion to Seattle is “very likely” with the new arena in place.

I don’t see any issues with Sonics 2.0 using Climate Pledge Arena. It was most certainly designed with the NBA in mind. Seattle is not going to build a second arena. This isn’t Steve Ballmer and the forthcoming Intuit Dome for the Clippers.

With that being said, I think the overall construction of the arena was very well done, but it still was a tremendous expense to taxpayers.

Saving the existing roof added a quarter of a billion dollars to the cost.

Seattle is really pushing public transit these days.

I took public transportation everywhere on my recent Seattle trip. Loved the rail service, but riding the bus could be a grim adventure. On a couple of rides the driver had to toss (apparent) homeless people off the bus for various transgressions. Seattle has a major homeless problem, which is spilling onto public transport.

Also did a ton of walking…my smartphone pedometer logged 24,000 steps one particular day…

 

[Mediafrog+]

Since Mr. Allen is dead, his sister now owns the Portland team. If someone would make her an offer she couldn't refuse, she probably would take that offer. That said; if that offer crossed the billion dollar mark, then one would question the business case for such a purchase.

There is virtually zero chance the NBA would approve the Blazers moving to Seattle. If the Blazers were to move elsewhere, the NHL might come swooping in with a relocation of the Arizona Coyotes, should that team not get its desired arena in Tempe.

Mark is a smart guy. He was just one owner among many who approved the move. And Commissioner Stern already had stacked the deck to move the team.

Cuban has also been making noise recently about a new arena for his Dallas Mavericks, despite the fact that the current American Airlines Center is a superb facility and in excellent shape after 21 years.

 

[Mediafrog+]

OK, so here is another question for the experts: if sports stations do well financially with low ratings, why did Seattle lose a sports talk station during the last shakeup? KFNQ used to be CBS Sports Radio, and now it's conservative talk. I know why the conservative talk is there (it's been explained on here when it happened), but if sports makes so much money, where are there only two stations in Market #11 when there used to be three?

Was KFNQ just clearing the national network? Local sports talk is what works in major markets.

Note that DFW recently went from three to two SportsTalkers, which is likely enough for the market. Houston could lose its third place sports station and hardly anyone would notice…

 

[PTBoardOp94]

OK, so here is another question for the experts: if sports stations do well financially with low ratings, why did Seattle lose a sports talk station during the last shakeup? KFNQ used to be CBS Sports Radio, and now it's conservative talk. I know why the conservative talk is there (it's been explained on here when it happened), but if sports makes so much money, where are there only two stations in Market #11 when there used to be three?

The only reason KFNQ switched to CBS Sports Radio was due to its ownership by CBS Radio. When it was sold to iHeart, they switched it to Fox Sports Radio, because iHeart is a partner in that network.

Fox Sports Radio now airs on 950 AM. There are still 3 sports stations in Seattle: KJR 950, KJR-FM 93.3, and KIRO 710, just different frequencies than a year ago.

 

[Kelly A]

OK, so here is another question for the experts: if sports stations do well financially with low ratings, why did Seattle lose a sports talk station during the last shakeup? KFNQ used to be CBS Sports Radio, and now it's conservative talk. I know why the conservative talk is there (it's been explained on here when it happened), but if sports makes so much money, where are there only two stations in Market #11 when there used to be three?

Just doing 24/7 satellite syndicated sports talk, isn't the same as having live talk shows talking about local and national sports and local team PBP. Also, wasn't the station that dropped sports and AM station?

 

[guruofradio]

Interesting article in the LA Times reprinted today in INSIDE RADIO that confirms what Kelly A has said all along. With virtually no ratings sports stations are top ten billers in many markets including LA. Ratings doesn't equal revenue n the world of sports radio, it is about results. My question is why bother paying for ratings?

Ratings Do Not Always Equal Revenue: A Look At LA Sports Radio.
In an article titled “No one listens to sports talk radio in L.A. Why the people in charge aren’t worried,” from the Times.

 

[davideduardo]

Interesting article in the LA Times reprinted today in INSIDE RADIO that confirms what Kelly A has said all along. With virtually no ratings sports stations are top ten billers in many markets including LA. Ratings doesn't equal revenue n the world of sports radio, it is about results. My question is why bother paying for ratings?
.

Remember, station groups subscribe for the whole group, so if one station’s ratings are not as useful for sales that does not exempt the group from paying for the package. otherwise, they still get all the data, even for the unsubscribed station

 

[boombox4]

The only reason KFNQ switched to CBS Sports Radio was due to its ownership by CBS Radio. When it was sold to iHeart, they switched it to Fox Sports Radio, because iHeart is a partner in that network.

Fox Sports Radio now airs on 950 AM. There are still 3 sports stations in Seattle: KJR 950, KJR-FM 93.3, and KIRO 710, just different frequencies than a year ago.

Ah, an oversight on my part. Still, it's weird that some of the biggest national sports talk shows are no longer heard in Seattle. But I suppose that's the same in many other metros.

 

[Kelly A]

Cuban has also been making noise recently about a new arena for his Dallas Mavericks, despite the fact that the current American Airlines Center is a superb facility and in excellent shape after 21 years.

That probably has to do with the revenue splits. Assuming a municipality technically owns the building, they take a big chunk of ticket, luxury suite, and potentially advertising revenue. The NBA takes 50% of what's left over. That leaves very little for team ownership. But, if you have investors, willing to take the risk, and are able to build your own arena.