How things change.

[RTGIV]

It’s amazing that both KDF and 107.5 both have fallen so far from what they use to be. At one point in history they both were top of the line stations, now according to the latest ratings not even in the top 10.

What’s the answer? Has corporate radio destroyed 2 legacies of great stations?

 

[CDG]

It’s amazing that both KDF and 107.5 both have fallen so far from what they use to be. At one point in history they both were top of the line stations, now according to the latest ratings not even in the top 10.

What’s the answer? Has corporate radio destroyed 2 legacies of great stations?

WKDF could go all news and use the WINS format with give us 22 minute's and we will give you the would.. WRVW needs to go back to their roods and get back to serving Lebanon with news and public affair's about Wilson County and their surrounding area.

 

[TheBigA]

It's hard to take the OP seriously when the #1 station in Nashville now is Jack FM.

This isn't a radio problem. It's an audience problem.

On the plus side, it's good to see 95.5 near the top of the ratings again.

 

[Tibbs4]

BigA. Jack is the perfect combination of music mix for Nashville. It is programmed locally and has two people putting the music together, so it ebbs and flows by their days to program it. It is often rocking harder than 105.9. Have you looked at the playlist? Watch it for a few weeks. Nashville doesn’t like same old same ole. In fact, Jack is better sounding now than ever. Now, the lack of air personalities is an interesting reality/dynamic. In this case, I think listeners are actually appreciative of consistent music vs talk in the morning. In fact, if they added jocks, I think it would hurt it. Hence, this station IS currently the most dialed in non-country station to the listeners. Lightning would be next, but that‘s even more of a niche format than ever and those listeners are less dialed into radio. They just have a tiny audience. Loyal. WNXP is a joke and programmed by people wanting to play what THEY want for Nashville and are missing it completely . It’s just not working. Now, back to Jack, I agree that it is nationally the most odd combination of a fairly played out concept that is now two decades old and certainly seen some tremendous disasters in other markets. So, I do wonder why and how it’s as strong in a city that doesn’t want to conform ton national anything. The music is what is keeping it viable here. Kudos to those guys. They work it literally 100 percent.

How many times have you and I had this discussion. 105.9 is not Nashville, it’s programmed bland and long stop sets from hell. Yet, it holds its own. But, it’s not near what it could or should be. Buzz is unfocused and has signal issues and yet it is and has been consistent since KDF changed in 1999. This tells you the market wants to rock. Always has. You get an additional number of listeners that like it a bit more light with 92.9, 93.3, 94.5 and depending on how current and local, 91.1 and 100.1. All those numbers added together can often add up to 103.3. As for 107.5 and 106.7, it’s interesting that they are in the skids but that is indeed the music or lack thereof.

KDF, done RIGHT would absolutely destroy the dial in less than two years and you know it. In listenership and in ratings. I agree that the audience would skew older and that is the only issue that I can see holding it back, but local revenue would be strong and national would probably increase only marginally, so again, I don’t see anyone pushing to give a damn at Cumulus. So, while it would be great for Nashville...

Agree with you on 95.5. They are doing it right. But, that whole set up is interesting to watch as their music mix reflects Nashville of old vs who and what is moving in. I think that is why you see the swings in the numbers vs rather small sampling here. WSIX is the long term king of the format and half the city still will not listen to KDF after they felt slighted by the change. That is a legit fact. Say what you will, but there are a lotta listeners that blame Carl P to this day. Not kidding on that fact. The KDF News idea is interesting. My guess is it would be way too expensive and hurt WTN, but what I would find fun to watch would be how many KDF hating 45-60 males would listen to the station as news vs today’s ”format.”

As for programming stations to serve a certain county, like the comment made above on 107.5, less than zero chance of that and that is not what radio is unless you have a terrible signal serving a ten mile radius and we see how those succeed. Just not enough local interest or dollars.

Also, elaborate on your comment about it being audience vs radio problem. I don’t disagree with that. Could be a really fun discussion on here, given the general lack of comments and posts.

 

[TheBigA]

Tibbs, you have a lot in your post, and I'll try to address it all:

BigA. Jack is the perfect combination of music mix for Nashville. 105.9 is not Nashville, it’s programmed bland and long stop sets from hell. Yet, it holds its own. But, it’s not near what it could or should be.

To me, The Rock is the big surprise in the ratings. The Top 2 stations in Nashville play rock music. But they're both playing older rock. Why is The Rock #2? I give the credit to Josh Innes. He was the perfect choice for that station. He is a former sports talk host, and combining classic rock with sports is a good combination. I think a lot of former listeners to The Zone are listening to The Rock. You may not know this, but iHeart just announced they're now airing Josh Innes in Memphis. I think Josh will be the next Bobby Bones.

Agree with you on 95.5. They are doing it right. But, that whole set up is interesting to watch as their music mix reflects Nashville of old vs who and what is moving in. I think that is why you see the swings in the numbers vs rather small sampling here.

The Top 3 stations in Nashville are playing classic music. What does that tell you about the audience? It's getting older. The stations that play older music get ratings. The stations that play a large percentage of currents, such as The River, Hot, Buzz, and even KDF, are hurting. Nationally, I'm seeing Cumulus replacing their currents-based country stations in several markets with stations more like 95.5. Why? Because they're more popular. People who listen to Nashville radio apparently don't want a high percentage of currents in any format.

Also, elaborate on your comment about it being audience vs radio problem. I don’t disagree with that. Could be a really fun discussion on here, given the general lack of comments and posts.

The popularity of stations like Jack and The Rock reflect a change in the audience. When radio stations change to reflect what the audience wants, that's not a radio problem. We're seeing some Top 40 stations playing more gold. In New York City, iHeart's Z100 has decreased the spins for its top currents, and is playing some 20 year old gold. That's unheard of for Top 40. But they're getting better ratings than The River. Perhaps 107 needs to play more gold. That seems to be what works best in Nashville. The radio audience is changing, and some radio stations are adapting to that change. That's what I mean by an audience problem, not a radio problem. The OP was blaming radio companies like Cumulus and iHeart for screwing up KDF and The River. But those same two companies are at the top of the ratings with 95.5 and The Rock. It's not "corporate radio," it's the audience. That's "how things change."

 

[R.D.P.]

Wow! That's some real food for thought @TheBigA Reason why I play more of the classics than the newer tunes. I know for a fact that playing Older songs tend to perform better anyway. That's what many of my listeners still want from me. Since that's the case, I intend to deliver. I have been slipping in a few new releases, as of late but expect me to add even more of the older tunes, as well. Much of the new tunes don't appeal to me anyway. I like to listen to the older songs. They have real people singing and playing real instruments. Besides they offer a real message that we all need to hear from.​

Dan <><

P.S. Much of what we have on the dial here, leans heavy on the Classics and less on the newer songs. We have many older folks here too and that's what they want. The new tunes isn't cutting it for them either.​

 

[Tibbs4]

Fun conversation! Here is where it gets really interesting. One @ repetition and overplays MATTER. Especially to an ”older” crowd. In a sense, that negates what half the posts on this board about radio killing itself by playing the same ten songs. People currently want the comfort and connection with radio to be tried and true in world most of us don’t like or recognize. The right amount of music and commercials also matters and I think it can drastically cost stations today to run 12 spots in a row. I contend that really causes 105.9 to have its issues.

Innis is also a lightning rod, BigA. Not that he won’t play in Memphis or become the next Bobby Bones, because IF he himself doesn’t implode or run his mouth off, he might well be able to multi-market, but I think it is only a matter of time before he causes himself success harm. Additionally, I contend music in the morning on his show helps retain listeners. Everyone that has come through that station makes the same comments including some of the last few PDs that are friends. It’s a fraction of what it was and could be. So, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the reigns were loosened a bit and it was more local.

As you mention, the audience is changing. I have said for the last five years that actually the audience is NOT. By that, it’s that on-going give and take conversation that we are not picking up that many NEW and younger listeners as they all are their own radio stations. I think the issue with radio will be more stressful in five and ten years when the 40 and 50 year olds age up and the 50 and 60 year olds.....

So, as we have argued on here before, the audience radio delivers needs to be more in line with the reality of what it is vs what ad agencies try to make it and that alignment may well better align declines in future revenues by the slight mismatch of skewing younger. You are right here in Nashville. Look at what Jack slowly figured out. They became “the rock” of Nashville over the last three years more than they previously were. They cut out much of the sap and yet still throw in a goofy oh wow Bee Gees song and get away with it. Mix 92.9 went younger after Bryan Sargent retired from his long run on top in afternoons. They pushed their older audience right down the hall. I don’t believe 107.5 can use older songs to bring back that audience to the point of huge number growth. I think that will take a more refined CHR approach to today’s music. Tough.

So, finally, after all my long banter, what I still believe is the true Nashville play is sitting right there before all whole cities eyes and ears. Cumulus cleaned house when they sold their 2nd Ave property. They are about to tear all that down and build three skyscrapers that will be surrounded by about another 30 more in the next five years. Under all that will be the buried KDF hearse complete with all the old memories. Wanna take control of Nashville’s airwaves for the next decade. Do what Cumulus is doing with WSM-FM and WTN and bring back KDF and you literally hit the future of Nashville’s radio audience while IHeart cannot really compete with anything but WSIX and that skews younger and more new Nashville. The revenues will stay strong and the audience will be aligned until we all really start to see the younger listenership not be there in their 30s.

 

[TheBigA]

The right amount of music and commercials also matters and I think it can drastically cost stations today to run 12 spots in a row. I contend that really causes 105.9 to have its issues.

It costs money to hire talent. If the talent is good enough, the audience will sit through 12 spots. Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh proved that many years ago. Stern did 20 minutes of spots in a row. Some of them he read. You can complain all day, but iHeart is not going to cut their spotload.

Innis is also a lightning rod, BigA. Not that he won’t play in Memphis or become the next Bobby Bones, because IF he himself doesn’t implode or run his mouth off, he might well be able to multi-market, but I think it is only a matter of time before he causes himself success harm.

I agree 100%. I think Josh is on trial in Nashville. The suits know he's a talented guy, but he gets in trouble. So far, so good. Maybe he's learned his lesson. He's never had such an opportunity as he does now.

Do what Cumulus is doing with WSM-FM and WTN and bring back KDF and you literally hit the future of Nashville’s radio audience while IHeart cannot really compete with anything but WSIX and that skews younger and more new Nashville. The revenues will stay strong and the audience will be aligned until we all really start to see the younger listenership not be there in their 30s.

Too late for that. But we'll see. The fact that KDF is running a Nashville-based morning show that they don't own says a lot.

 

[Tibbs4]

Again, I think we are actually closer on all these thoughts than not. I think radio needs to speed up the commercial messages and adapt to the newer “say it faster and still get your point across” mantra of on air talent into shorter commercials. That is one thing that the old audience will appreciate and the young audience will perhaps engage. No one wants to sit through any of that. My long rants vs your more to the point comments. 😳

I disagree with you on the too late for that comment on KDF. You have a small signal operating a successful format for decades with 92-Q. You have 99.7 on a nice even run after losing a stellarly popular afternoon local host. You have a nicely formatted, yet slightly roller coaster ratings country station that could easily continue to succeed after splitting or taking on more listeners with the demise of Country waste of time on 103.3.

The move would tighten the revenue stream and grow it for Cumulus and absolutely disarm iHeart with a sudden 3 or less share of 105.9, take Jack outta number one. Now the downside might be WSIX beats WSM-FM for number one country station more, but I think tight programming and more marketing can seal 95.5 for the first time in many years to possibly be over a 10 12plus. Iheart can‘t win with Talk on 1510 and a small translator. They might end up putting it on 105.9 or 101.1 and moving the Beat to 105.9 for a better city grade signal. Long shot.

Better tie ins with male listeners with 95.5/99.7 and 103.3. I heart can’t really revive 107.5, gets 105.9 beat into submission and the rev from The Beat is not stellar, so what do they have other than an aging Bobby Bones and trying to play the same music as 95.5 easily plays today and creating a crap shoot. I dunno. It’s got the makings of Nashville being one of the Top Cumulus markets in ratings and revenues. Or just keeping a 3-4 mundane country station that has been irrelevant for three decades. I guess I like the odds of the fight now better than EVER, Big A. I heart has not been as vulnerable as it has been recently.

 

[TheBigA]

Again, I think we are actually closer on all these thoughts than not. I think radio needs to speed up the commercial messages and adapt to the newer “say it faster and still get your point across” mantra of on air talent into shorter commercials.

Advertisers buy time. If they want to speed up their message, it's up to them. The customer is always right, and the advertisers are the customers. These stations are already selling shorter commercials. But they're selling time, so shorter commercials just mean more commercials.

 

[Radio Nashville]

Going off on wild tangent. Did i tell you about my intro to 96.3 Jack? I had been listening to Oldies 96.3. Left the car, came back in an hour. Heard a song "That doesn't fit the oldies format." Song 2: "Might" Song 3 "Nope." Then i heard Mr. Jack. I had been listening to the Denver Jack at work (which btw, had dj's). Same time also listening to 100.1 & 105.9 in the car.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Tibbs4]

Man. Hard to believe Jack has been the same format since May of 2005. What a surprise to many. So many people said there was zero chance of it lasting for three years. I remember Garry Wall, who had just settled in Nashville, telling me how important it was that this market be the absolute best sounding and best musically. I remember a few bottles of Champagne to celebrate an anniversary a year or two after it launched and it wasn’t always easy and was a roller coaster. If you notice the music playing on Jack, today, against 93.3, 94.5 and 105.9, it often manages to beat the odds on being more upbeat, a harder rock song and has better higher tune-in/like ability. That is amazing after all these years. I think everyone thought that Nashville would never accept a force-fed gimmick-style station. Much less make it the top station. Talk about a long road to the top. Again, it offers quite a history to reflect on the hows and whys of radio.

Oh, BigA. On the length of spots as you referenced above, I believe radio needs to study the efficiency of shorter and more frequent messages than the “usual” 30 second or 60 second spots. Not sure it’s smart or possible, especially with so much automation, but I think radio has settled on a formula that has been the norm and no one has really pushed for an update that could help all parties. In a sense, it could allow for smarter listening and more revenue and be better for the agencies and businesses who buy the time. Just a thought on how to evolve as the machine times out and all hope is lost. I think we are basically on the same page. Although you are wrong.

 

[davideduardo]

Oh, BigA. On the length of spots as you referenced above, I believe radio needs to study the efficiency of shorter and more frequent messages than the “usual” 30 second or 60 second spots. Not sure it’s smart or possible, especially with so much automation, but I think radio has settled on a formula that has been the norm and no one has really pushed for an update that could help all parties. In a sense, it could allow for smarter listening and more revenue and be better for the agencies and businesses who buy the time. Just a thought on how to evolve as the machine times out and all hope is lost. I think we are basically on the same page. Although you are wrong.

Spot length is determined by advertisers... particularly agencies... and not stations. In almost all the rest of the Western Hemisphere, 30's and 15's are the norm, and few 60's are ever sold. In some nations, like Argentina, the 5" and 10" are used for brand awareness, too.

Radio buys will generally follow trends in TV. If TV becomes predominantly based on 30's, radio will follow. And, of course, the prevalence of very short ads in streaming sources may cause a mindset shift for both radio and TV towards shorter spots.

Broadcast automation can handle shorter spots just as easily as longer ones. The issue is that radio runs what clients want, and no radio station can single-handedly change the attitudes or the creative mindset at agencies. To do that, every major broadcaster would have to unite and do a massive effectiveness study and present it to every agency in the country.

 

[TheBigA]

Oh, BigA. On the length of spots as you referenced above, I believe radio needs to study the efficiency of shorter and more frequent messages than the “usual” 30 second or 60 second spots.

What do you mean by "the efficiency?" Radio stations are currently running :10s and :15s in addition to :30s and :60s. The :10s usually are live reads during traffic reports. The :15s come from advertisers who are basically buying a "split :30," which is to say a :30 that airs in two parts. The goal is increased impressions.

 

[gr8oldies]

Man. Hard to believe Jack has been the same format since May of 2005. What a surprise to many. So many people said there was zero chance of it lasting for three years. I remember Garry Wall, who had just settled in Nashville, telling me how important it was that this market be the absolute best sounding and best musically. I remember a few bottles of Champagne to celebrate an anniversary a year or two after it launched and it wasn’t always easy and was a roller coaster. If you notice the music playing on Jack, today, against 93.3, 94.5 and 105.9, it often manages to beat the odds on being more upbeat, a harder rock song and has better higher tune-in/like ability. That is amazing after all these years. I think everyone thought that Nashville would never accept a force-fed gimmick-style station. Much less make it the top station. Talk about a long road to the top. Again, it offers quite a history to reflect on the hows and whys of radio.

Oh, BigA. On the length of spots as you referenced above, I believe radio needs to study the efficiency of shorter and more frequent messages than the “usual” 30 second or 60 second spots. Not sure it’s smart or possible, especially with so much automation, but I think radio has settled on a formula that has been the norm and no one has really pushed for an update that could help all parties. In a sense, it could allow for smarter listening and more revenue and be better for the agencies and businesses who buy the time. Just a thought on how to evolve as the machine times out and all hope is lost. I think we are basically on the same page. Although you are wrong.

WLW in Cincinnati still runs a 5 second ad that says only "Wyler dot com" (Jeff Wyler dealerships)

 

[fedacct1]

It’s amazing that both KDF and 107.5 both have fallen so far from what they use to be. At one point in history they both were top of the line stations, now according to the latest ratings not even in the top 10.

What’s the answer? Has corporate radio destroyed 2 legacies of great stations?

107.5 completely lost it’s energy, edge, and talent. The bumpers almost make it sound like a modern AC station. Also, I’m not sure if it’s because I’m older now, but it seems like Pop music isn’t as good as it used to be. Also, their playlist is abysmally small. RIP Coyote McCloud and J Karen. 😢

 

[TheBigA]

Also, their playlist is abysmally small. RIP Coyote McCloud and J Karen.

Playlists for Top 40 stations are supposed to be small. They're not called Top 40 for nothing.

 

[fedacct1]

Playlists for Top 40 stations are supposed to be small. They're not called Top 40 for nothing.

Yes, but it should include most of the 40 songs in the Top 40, not 15 or so.

 

[fedacct1]

WLW in Cincinnati still runs a 5 second ad that says only "Wyler dot com" (Jeff Wyler dealerships)

I’ve heard that too and think “And?”

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, but it should include most of the 40 songs in the Top 40, not 15 or so.

It depends on which chart you look at. Right now the Billboard Hot 100 is dominated by two artists. A radio station can't devote its entire signal to two artists. Especially when one of them regularly uses language not allowed on the radio.

But The River is playing most new currents identified in their Top 40 chart:

Pop Top 40 | iHeart

The 40 biggest Pop Songs this week.

news.iheart.com

Looking at their playlist on Mediabase, it has 225 songs in it, which is about the right size for a CHR station.