What Happens to Inactive/Defunct Call Signs?

[cc333]

I don't know where to post this. I'll post here because it seems to fit.

What happens to a station's old call sign when said station changes to a new one or goes defunct (revoked/expired license, buyout and shutdown, etc)?

If said old call sign is no longer in use anywhere, who owns the rights to use it, if that's a thing?

If not, is it possible to petition the FCC to grant a request to have the old sign assigned to a new licensee?

I read that, while uncommon, there is some precedent: in 2000, when KKHJ, then a Spanish-language station owned by Liberman Brodcasting, successfully managed to petition the FCC to drop one of the 'K's, effectively reinstating the station's original 3 letter sign (which the FCC hasn't assigned otherwise since the 1930s).

c

 

[davideduardo]

When calls are dropped by a station, anyone else with a licensed facility can apply for them.

Three letter calls stopped being assigned in the 20's, and normally can't be reapplied for if dropped unless the original licensee who dropped them still owns the station. The Liberman case was pure deception.

 

[cc333]

When calls are dropped by a station, anyone else with a licensed facility can apply for them.

OK. To make sure I understand, here's a thought exercise:

Take KFRC. KFRC-FM is still on air as a simulcast of KCBS-AM on 106.9, but as far as I know, KFRC-AM is defunct (the call was changed to KEAR when 610 became religious).

So, let's say I want to start an AM oldies/classic hits station, and I want the KFRC-AM call. Can I reasonably expect to get it if I request it from the FCC?

Three letter calls stopped being assigned in the 20's, and normally can't be reapplied for if dropped unless the original licensee who dropped them still owns the station. The Liberman case was pure deception.

How was it deception?

c

 

[b-turner]

If there is an FM or TV with the call letters and you want those call letters for your AM, then you must get permission from that FM and/or TV with the same call letters before the FCC will assign them to your AM station.

Just guessing...deception was that Liberman owned KKHJ when it was KHJ.

 

[gr8oldies]

OK. To make sure I understand, here's a thought exercise:

Take KFRC. KFRC-FM is still on air as a simulcast of KCBS-AM on 106.9, but as far as I know, KFRC-AM is defunct (the call was changed to KEAR when 610 became religious).

So, let's say I want to start an AM oldies/classic hits station, and I want the KFRC-AM call. Can I reasonably expect to get it if I request it from the FCC?


How was it deception?

c

There is no such call as KFRC-AM, only KFRC. KFRC-FM can apply to be just KFRC if they haven't done so.
This happened when WNAP(FM) dropped its calls and they were picked up by an AM religious station in Pennsylvania. After being WEAG and WKLR, the station flipped to "Greatest Hits of the 70s" and wanted WNAP back. With the AM in PA having the. base call, the Indianapolis station had to get permission from that station to name itself WNAP-FM (the -FM being legally part of the calls) and write a hefty check to WNAP in Pennsylvania, which remained WNAP. Companies like iHeart "park" call letters on dog facilities for possible re-use somewhere else (like WBCN Boston's calls being parked on an X-bander in North Carolina.

 

[gr8oldies]

If there is an FM or TV with the call letters and you want those call letters for your AM, then you must get permission from that FM and/or TV with the same call letters before the FCC will assign them to your AM station.

Just guessing...deception was that Liberman owned KKHJ when it was KHJ.

I seem to remember a claim that "KK" was "caca" in Spanish (meaning excrement). By the KKHJ (calling itself 93 KHJ) is now assigned to a station in American Samoa.

 

[TheBigA]

So, let's say I want to start an AM oldies/classic hits station, and I want the KFRC-AM call. Can I reasonably expect to get it if I request it from the FCC?

Here's a different example: WNBC. Those call letters were assigned to 660AM in New York. When NBC left the radio business in 1988, they sold 660AM to Emmis, who moved their sports format and call letters WFAN from 1050 to 660. At that point, the WNBC call letters were technically available. But since NBC also owns WNBC-TV, they control the trademark on that brand. So the WNBC and KNBC call letters have been unavailable to radio since then. In the case of KFRC, those letters are trademarked by Audacy.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

I don't know where to post this. I'll post here because it seems to fit.

What happens to a station's old call sign when said station changes to a new one or goes defunct (revoked/expired license, buyout and shutdown, etc)?

If said old call sign is no longer in use anywhere, who owns the rights to use it, if that's a thing?

If not, is it possible to petition the FCC to grant a request to have the old sign assigned to a new licensee?

I read that, while uncommon, there is some precedent: in 2000, when KKHJ, then a Spanish-language station owned by Liberman Brodcasting, successfully managed to petition the FCC to drop one of the 'K's, effectively reinstating the station's original 3 letter sign (which the FCC hasn't assigned otherwise since the 1930s).

c

Theres KGO whose call letters was originally assigned to an Altadena,CA radio station a century ago. But once that station became defunct then it went to San Francisco to what was then owned by GE at sign in subsequently went to NBC, ABC/Disney, Citadel and Cumulus.

KABC-AM same thing started on an AM station in San Antonio before going to Los Angeles once ABC got the rights to those call letters in the Southland.

 

[gr8oldies]

Here's a different example: WNBC. Those call letters were assigned to 660AM in New York. When NBC left the radio business in 1988, they sold 660AM to Emmis, who moved their sports format and call letters WFAN from 1050 to 660. At that point, the WNBC call letters were technically available. But since NBC also owns WNBC-TV, they control the trademark on that brand. So the WNBC and KNBC call letters have been unavailable to radio since then. In the case of KFRC, those letters are trademarked by Audacy.

As I understand, even if there was no trademark, WNBC-TV still controls the callsign and the FCC would not assign it elsewhere with WNBC-TV's say-so.

 

[TheBigA]

As I understand, even if there was no trademark, WNBC-TV still controls the callsign and the FCC would not assign it elsewhere with WNBC-TV's say-so.

You could be right. The most recent example was with Entercom buying CBS Radio. It's part of what's called "intellectual property." That's property outside of the frequency.

 

[gr8oldies]

You could be right. The most recent example was with Entercom buying CBS Radio. It's part of what's called "intellectual property." That's property outside of the frequency.

Scott Fybush would probably be able to tell us for sure. I do remember courts. ruled that MTM Productions had no standing when a station applied for the WKRP call letters during the first-run of the series.

 

[Marcos_C]

Here's a different example: WNBC. Those call letters were assigned to 660AM in New York. When NBC left the radio business in 1988, they sold 660AM to Emmis, who moved their sports format and call letters WFAN from 1050 to 660. At that point, the WNBC call letters were technically available. But since NBC also owns WNBC-TV, they control the trademark on that brand. So the WNBC and KNBC call letters have been unavailable to radio since then. In the case of KFRC, those letters are trademarked by Audacy.

Also, the -TV suffix has been dropped from both WNBC New York and KNBC Los Angeles during the 1990s. So, when we talk about WNBC and KNBC today, we are talking about the TV stations.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

FADED SIGNALS

Sacramento's first TV station, KCCC-TV, signed on in 1953 as an affiliate of all four networks. It was broadcasting on UHF Channel 40. TV sets were not required to have UHF tuning until 1964, so...

fadedsignals.com

History of UHF Television

uhfhistory.com

There used to be a KTVU in Stockton in the 1950's but that was a failed station due to the fact that back then there was no requirement to have UHF tuner on the TV until the 1960's. Note that station's call letters moved to San Francisco on KTVU 2 Oakland. But the KTVU in Stockton disappeared.

Also there was once a San Angelo TV station called KTXL-TV in the 1950's. But those call letters are now known as KLST San Angelo, TX. But the owners at the time changed the call letters to KCTV and KLST in Texas.

This was prior to KTXL's calls moving to Sacramento from the 1968 sign on when more Sacramento residents had TV's that Picked up UHF signals and aired on the former KCCC-TV's spot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLST

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCCE_(AM)

KTXL - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

New Mass Entertainment, TV, Pleases San Angeloans - Newspapers.com

Clipping found in San Angelo Evening Standard in San Angelo, Texas on Jul 7, 1953. New Mass Entertainment, TV, Pleases San Angeloans

www.newspapers.com

 

[davideduardo]

If there is an FM or TV with the call letters and you want those call letters for your AM, then you must get permission from that FM and/or TV with the same call letters before the FCC will assign them to your AM station.

Just guessing...deception was that Liberman owned KKHJ when it was KHJ.

No, they claimed that the calls, when said in Spanish, came out as "Ca Ca" which means "poop" or "crap". The FCC bought the argument.

Except that they never, ever used the calls in Spanish. They did the hourly ID as Kay Kay Aych Jay in English and never used the calls for identification otherwise.

 

[davideduardo]

As I understand, even if there was no trademark, WNBC-TV still controls the callsign and the FCC would not assign it elsewhere with WNBC-TV's say-so.

Correct. Whoever has the calls first gets to control their use in any other service. For example, in Tallahassee the AM station I had oversight for wanted WNOL for the "Noles" as we were the flagship station for Seminole sports. The calls were in use on an FM elsewhere, and they wanted too much money for the permission, so we went with WNLS instead.

 

[awsherrill]

For example, in Tallahassee the AM station I had oversight for wanted WNOL for the "Noles" as we were the flagship station for Seminole sports. The calls were in use on an FM elsewhere, and they wanted too much money for the permission, so we went with WNLS instead.

Would you really want your college-sports flagship station to have calls that spell "winless"?

 

[davideduardo]

Would you really want your college-sports flagship station to have calls that spell "winless"?

Nobody ever brought that interpretation up. It was clear that NLS was “Noles”.

 

[cc333]

OK, so the general sense I'm getting here is that unless I have lots of money and some very good lawyers, it's not worth the effort.

Yes?

c

 

[gr8oldies]

OK, so the general sense I'm getting here is that unless I have lots of money and some very good lawyers, it's not worth the effort.

Yes?

c

You'd have to see if the calls are available. If they are, you're all set, just apply. if someone has it, then that's when you get the checkbook out.

 

[cc333]

I see.

Since I've been basically feeling stuck the past 3 years, I thought I'd try out some hypothetical scenarios.

One of which was to somehow acquire the rights to KYA and bring it back as an oldies station on a non-profit/educational basis, similar to the KYA internet-only stream, but over the air. However, I think I'd have to win the lottery first, and even if I did, I guess the KYA call is for all intents and purposes extinct, so it probably will never happen.

But stations do have identification that is sometimes completely independent of the call, which is only heard during the top of the hour ID (for example, KOOL 101.9 was actually KCCL, but that fact was only ever mentioned once per hour during the legal ID), so perhaps if I somehow acquired the rights to any KYA imaging, I could use it, calling the station KYA for all intents and purposes, but mentioning the actual call during the station ID so the FCC is satisfied, maybe?

I have a feeling there's a law that prevents this, but maybe not?

c