BREAK UP I-HEART!

[TheBigA]

Simply put, you can't do what you could do 40 years ago because the dollars aren't there.

That's the reality. People don't care about the reality. They want what they want. If you don't give it to them, they get mad.

I read people say "radio is killing itself." That's not what happened. The world changed. Nothing is as it was 40 years ago. We didn't have cell phones or personal computers 40 years ago. Now we do. That has an effect on everything else. It dilutes the money that used to pay the salaries that fed the people who used to work in radio. When all that changed, so did everything else.

 

[Mikey Radio]

Simply put, you can't do what you could do 40 years ago because the dollars aren't there. And it wasn't go to the computer and cash in. It was retain the jocks and after it was evident you'd not see black ink, perhaps you let the overnight jock go and so forth until the dollars demanded you get by with fewer and fewer people.

Even completely aside from things like streaming services, satellite providers, cell phones, apps, internet use and the like, all of which have deeply cut into listeners' reliance on terrestrial radio, there were things like Docket 80-90 which also deeply impacted broadcasters.

I've mentioned before an interview that was done with a station owner from West Virginia. He explained that, at one time, there were only 2 stations in the city where his operated when he first constructed it. Both were competitive but respectful of each other and there was plenty of advertising money to support both. Then once D 80-90 happened, suddenly there were 10 stations who's signals were heard in that same town. Advertising dollars were spread more thin and his piece of the pie began to shrink. Exactly as you say, @b-turner, his first move to ensure his stations' survival was to retain most all his his airstaff, but automate overnights. Then it became automation for nights and overnights. Then automation for all shifts aside from morning and afternoon drive. Eventually, once his options were to fold and sell or replace all his airstaff 24/7 with satellite or automated programming, he decided the business he once loved was no fun anymore, he wasn't "enjoying" it as he once did and that's when he sold and got out.

 

[landtuna]

Eventually, once his options were to fold and sell or replace all his airstaff 24/7 with satellite or automated programming, he decided the business he once loved was no fun anymore, he wasn't "enjoying" it as he once did and that's when he sold and got out.

And that's exactly the same reason a lot of us don't listen to radio any longer.

 

[Kelly A]

I never endorsed breaking them up. Someone else created this thread.

You just want them investigated for illegal activity that you have no insider knowledge of?

 

[Kelly A]

Even completely aside from things like streaming services, satellite providers, cell phones, apps, internet use and the like, all of which have deeply cut into listeners' reliance on terrestrial radio, there were things like Docket 80-90 which also deeply impacted broadcasters.

I've mentioned before an interview that was done with a station owner from West Virginia. He explained that, at one time, there were only 2 stations in the city where his operated when he first constructed it. Both were competitive but respectful of each other and there was plenty of advertising money to support both. Then once D 80-90 happened, suddenly there were 10 stations who's signals were heard in that same town. Advertising dollars were spread more thin and his piece of the pie began to shrink. Exactly as you say, @b-turner, his first move to ensure his stations' survival was to retain most all his his airstaff, but automate overnights. Then it became automation for nights and overnights. Then automation for all shifts aside from morning and afternoon drive. Eventually, once his options were to fold and sell or replace all his airstaff 24/7 with satellite or automated programming, he decided the business he once loved was no fun anymore, he wasn't "enjoying" it as he once did and that's when he sold and got out.

Good and valid post Mikey. The same scenario is playing out all over the country. These hobbyists quick to bash and assume radio owner's are making money hand over fist couldn't be more wrong. Radio has become more fickle and difficult to make a go-of than the restaurant business.

 

[michael hagerty]

I never endorsed breaking them up. Someone else created this thread.

And you jumped in with:

What about markets in which iHeart controls the vast majority of the revenue? Perhaps some anti-trust action?

 

[michael hagerty]

Even completely aside from things like streaming services, satellite providers, cell phones, apps, internet use and the like, all of which have deeply cut into listeners' reliance on terrestrial radio, there were things like Docket 80-90 which also deeply impacted broadcasters.

I've mentioned before an interview that was done with a station owner from West Virginia. He explained that, at one time, there were only 2 stations in the city where his operated when he first constructed it. Both were competitive but respectful of each other and there was plenty of advertising money to support both. Then once D 80-90 happened, suddenly there were 10 stations who's signals were heard in that same town. Advertising dollars were spread more thin and his piece of the pie began to shrink. Exactly as you say, @b-turner, his first move to ensure his stations' survival was to retain most all his his airstaff, but automate overnights. Then it became automation for nights and overnights. Then automation for all shifts aside from morning and afternoon drive. Eventually, once his options were to fold and sell or replace all his airstaff 24/7 with satellite or automated programming, he decided the business he once loved was no fun anymore, he wasn't "enjoying" it as he once did and that's when he sold and got out.

Yep.

And, creating the perfect storm, businesses changed. In 1976 and 1977, I programmed KUKI in Ukiah, California (100-ish miles north of San Francisco). 10,000 people, but a thriving community. Probably 100 local businesses that were solid advertising prospects and as long as we had 40 or so of them running a decent schedule, we were golden.

Decades later, I end up marrying a Ukiah girl, so I get re-acquainted with the town when we visit family. The town's 20,000 people now, but Walmart moved in in the early 90s and most of the retailers that were KUKI's clients went out of business. In the last five years, Costco has moved in as well. Neither company advertises on local radio. Neither does Amazon.

When I was there, we had live jocks working four-hour shifts (six hours for overnights), a two-person newsroom, two salespeople plus a GM who sold time, a receptionist and a two-member engineering staff. And we made a profit.

Today, it's live in morning drive, that guy does advertising sales when he gets off the air and---that's it. Contract engineers show up if something breaks (although the tower light has been out for six years now).

 

[TheBigA]

The town's 20,000 people now, but Walmart moved in in the early 90s and most of the retailers that were KUKI's clients went out of business. In the last five years, Costco has moved in as well. Neither company advertises on local radio. Neither does Amazon.

We need to hammer this part because it's core to why radio isn't like it was. At one time, towns had local department stores. That may seem hard to believe, but it's true. Local versions of Macys. In fact at one time, Macy's was a local department store. It just got bigger. But when the nationalization of retail happened, it changed radio. It didn't happen overnight, but it happened. And when it was done, radio changed, because the money went away and wasn't replaced. This kept happening. Another core part of radio's business disappeared, and radio changed again. That brings us to where we are today. All of the business that used to be there is starting to be replaced by the kinds of advertising you now hear. The depressing ads for drugs or lawyers or insurance or various other things. And they don't pay as much as the former advertisers. We used to ignore these kinds of advertisers because we had local retail and other local business. Now it's basically all we have. Radio isn't killing itself. The lack of local business is killing radio.

This is why I keep saying that if people paid for radio, it would sound very different. But people don't want to pay for radio. After 20 years, SiriusXM is maybe reaching 8-10% of radio users. Public radio is also being hurt because people don't want to pay for radio. So they have to rely on foundations and corporate funding to pay the bills. But it would sound very different if people paid for radio. If they did, we wouldn't need advertisers, we wouldn't need ratings, and we wouldn't have commercials. Formats wouldn't be limited to a few, playlists would likely be bigger, and the entire focus of what we do would be different. But we'll never really know. The only people who are willing to pay for radio are Christians who support religious radio. That's the only growth we see in radio. If iHeart was broken up, they are who would buy it. Because they're the only ones with money.

 

[ScottBurns]

You just want them investigated for illegal activity that you have no insider knowledge of?

When did I say that?

 

[ScottBurns]

And you jumped in with:

I was offering an idea. That’s all. Will people quit jumping all over me because they don’t like my viewpoint?

 

[michael hagerty]

I was offering an idea. That’s all. Will people quit jumping all over me because they don’t like my viewpoint?

This has nothing to do with your viewpoint. It has to do with what you say then try to say you didn’t say.

Our viewpoints are probably pretty close. You think they didn’t piss me off by laying me and 1,499 other people off in January of 2020?

What about markets in which iHeart controls the vast majority of the revenue? Perhaps some anti-trust action?

Name an anti-trust action apart from breaking up a company.

 

[Mikey Radio]

And, creating the perfect storm, businesses changed. In 1976 and 1977, I programmed KUKI in Ukiah, California (100-ish miles north of San Francisco). 10,000 people, but a thriving community. Probably 100 local businesses that were solid advertising prospects and as long as we had 40 or so of them running a decent schedule, we were golden.

Decades later, I end up marrying a Ukiah girl, so I get re-acquainted with the town when we visit family. The town's 20,000 people now, but Walmart moved in in the early 90s and most of the retailers that were KUKI's clients went out of business. In the last five years, Costco has moved in as well. Neither company advertises on local radio. Neither does Amazon.

We need to hammer this part because it's core to why radio isn't like it was. At one time, towns had local department stores. That may seem hard to believe, but it's true. Local versions of Macys. In fact at one time, Macy's was a local department store. It just got bigger. But when the nationalization of retail happened, it changed radio. It didn't happen overnight, but it happened. And when it was done, radio changed, because the money went away and wasn't replaced. This kept happening. Another core part of radio's business disappeared, and radio changed again. That brings us to where we are today.

A few years ago during covid, I mentioned in another RD thread that I was visiting some family up north for I believe Thanksgiving, and since there were no parades during the pandemic, one of the TV stations replayed a bunch of old ones throughout the day. I mentioned that I was struck how big the contrast was between a parade from the later 1990s where the Top 40 radio station in that city had a big entry with all their live and local jocks meeting with the crowd, handing out station SWAG and the crowd seemed to know them and be big fans. A few hours later they replayed a parade from about 6 years later from the same city, and the same station was by then automated. All they had was a station van driving down the street with its hazard signals flashing. No staff, no giveaways and probably a sales guy driving it. None of the crowd paid much attention to it. Again, big contrast. One of the things that struck me even more is that a few times during the earlier parade when the station was live/local, they read off the list of all the sponsors of the parade and the TV coverage of it. They were a bunch of local restaurants, stores, shops and maybe small, local chain businesses. The city's chamber of commerce head got an interview during the parade and talked about how all those businesses were active and members of the chamber and did great works. The TV staff were calling out business owners on some of the floats by name.

While I realize that was 25 years ago or maybe a bit more, it was striking to me that none of those same companies are in business today in that area. Not a single one. There's now a Walmart, a Target, a bunch of mostly national chain restaurants and stores but few local ones and almost no "mom and pop" shops remaining. As someone mentioned upthread, that area is not unique in that, either...And those same small, local business that supported community events like Christmas Parades were the exact same ones advertising on radio back then.

 

[michael hagerty]

A few years ago during covid, I mentioned in another RD thread that I was visiting some family up north for I believe Thanksgiving, and since there were no parades during the pandemic, one of the TV stations replayed a bunch of old ones throughout the day. I mentioned that I was struck how big the contrast was between a parade from the later 1990s where the Top 40 radio station in that city had a big entry with all their live and local jocks meeting with the crowd, handing out station SWAG and the crowd seemed to know them and be big fans. A few hours later they replayed a parade from about 6 years later from the same city, and the same station was by then automated. All they had was a station van driving down the street with its hazard signals flashing. No staff, no giveaways and probably a sales guy driving it. None of the crowd seemed to care. Again, big contrast. One of the things that struck me even more is that a few times during the earlier parade when the station was live/local, they read off the list of all the sponsors of the parade and the TV coverage of it. They were a bunch of local restaurants, stores, shops and maybe small, local chain businesses. The city's chamber of commerce head got an interview during the parade and talked about how all those businesses were active and members of the chamber and did great works. The TV staff were calling out business owners on some of the floats by name.

While I realize that was 25 years ago or maybe a bit more, it was striking to me that none of those same companies are in business today in that area. Not a single one. There's now a Walmart, a Target, a bunch of mostly national chain restaurants and stores but few local ones and almost no "mom and pop" shops remaining. As someone mentioned upthread, that area is not unique in that, either...And those same small, local business that supported community events like Christmas Parades were the exact same ones advertising on radio back then.

And it's not just small towns. Take an unscoped aircheck from any major market radio station from---I dunno---1985 on back and listen to the advertisers, then ask what the modern equivalent is and whether there are any ad dollars.

Car manufacturers? Nope. Just local dealers, if you're lucky, with the most annoying commercials possible. Banks? Long gone. Airlines? Vapor. Record stores? Movie studios? Coke? Pepsi, Wrigley's gum?

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Guess what ive not seen anyone mention

Ok, break iheart up. .and sell the stations to who? Most the big corps who have the funds or cash are at or near market limits.

Few mom n pop operators have the millions to buy the stations....... and banks wont lend for radio stations in many cases. (I know one small market station that CAN get loans from the bank if it wants to expand with other stations.. but A.) in the home market b.) were talking less then a million bucks.

So what happens when iheart is broken up and no one buys?
More signals go dark, get deleted and more people out of a job

 

[michael hagerty]

Guess what ive not seen anyone mention

Ok, break iheart up. .and sell the stations to who? Most the big corps who have the funds or cash are at or near market limits.

Few mom n pop operators have the millions to buy the stations....... and banks wont lend for radio stations in many cases. (I know one small market station that CAN get loans from the bank if it wants to expand with other stations.. but A.) in the home market b.) were talking less then a million bucks.

So what happens when iheart is broken up and no one buys?
More signals go dark, get deleted and more people out of a job

Actually, Big A beat you to it (paragraph 2 of post 28), Paul. His thought is they wouldn't go dark, they'd go religion, because those are the only folks with the money and in the market.

 

[Kelly A]

When did I say that?

"Perhaps some anti-trust action?"
The antitrust laws proscribe unlawful mergers and business practices in general terms, leaving courts to decide which ones are illegal based on the facts of each case.

 

[ScottBurns]

"Perhaps some anti-trust action?"
The antitrust laws proscribe unlawful mergers and business practices in general terms, leaving courts to decide which ones are illegal based on the facts of each case.

I was asking the question. Note the question mark. You’ve made your point. I was wrong. End of story.

 

[Kelly A]

Guess what ive not seen anyone mention

Ok, break iheart up. .and sell the stations to who? Most the big corps who have the funds or cash are at or near market limits.

Or, that just don't want to buy more radio stations considering there is zero anticipated growth potential as a business.

 

[gr8oldies]

Why, we the people, of course. Peasants with pitchforks, as Pat Buchanan called them, set loose upon the wealthy elites and their institutions and tight playlists and voicetracking.

We'll be bringing our Stax'O'Wax!

 

[michael hagerty]

We need to hammer this part because it's core to why radio isn't like it was. At one time, towns had local department stores. That may seem hard to believe, but it's true. Local versions of Macys.

True. In fact, as a kid growing up in Los Angeles, Macy's wasn't even in the picture. Bullocks, Buffums, Orbach's, I. Magnin, Joseph Magnin, Desmond's, J.C. Penney, Sears, Montgomery Ward, The Broadway and Hinshaw's were all going concerns through the 70s...and most of them advertised on radio. Macy's, through a series of mergers and acquisitions, ended up owning the remains of the higher-end stores.

And it was true even in small towns. When we moved to Bishop (population 3,000), the town had its own hometown department store, Conder's. And another one specializing in western wear, The Toggery. Plus a local J.C. Penney store and catalog stores for Montgomery Ward and Sears. They all advertised on KIBS. In the late 80s, KMart (which didn't advertise locally) moved in. The only survivor was The Toggery.

The only chain restaurants in Bishop were A&W Root Beer, Fosters Freeze and (after 1968) Kentucky Fried Chicken. All were locally-owned franchises who could use what was known as co-op dollars from the chain to buy local advertising, and they did. And the real mom & pops advertised too. Now, it's Jack in the Box, McDonald's, Carl's Jr., El Pollo Loco, Subway, Denny's and two Starbucks---none of which buy local airtime, and many of whom sent mom and pop off to retirement.

EVERY car dealer in town bought airtime. We had an International Harvester/Jeep Dealer, a Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge dealer, an AMC-Pontiac-Buick-GMC-Toyota dealer, a Volkswagen dealer, a Chevrolet-Oldsmobile-Cadillac-Datsun dealer, and a Ford-Lincoln-Mercury-Mazda dealer. That's six car dealers. Today, there are two. If you want anything other than a Toyota, Honda or Ford, you have to go to Carson City, Nevada (170 miles) or Lancaster, California (200 miles) and neither of them are buying Bishop airtime.

There were three record stores, two selling stereo equipment (one leaned more toward home units, the other toward car stereo) and the third selling sheet music and musical instruments. Gone as soon as K-Mart hit town.

There were three appliance dealers, selling TVs, kitchen and laundry appliances and the like. K-Mart ate that business.

There were four banks, Bank of America, Security Pacific Bank, The Inyo-Mono National Bank and a fourth savings and loan whose name I'm blanking on. And the bigs--BofA and Security---bought local airtime because they were competing for deposits in a small town. It's now Chase and Union, and they don't advertise.

There are probably five or more other categories, but you get the idea. The ad market is nothing compared to what it was 40 or more years ago, even in a town that small.