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WKNR is interfering with CJBC again

Y

yub7h

In August I discovered that in Rittman I was able to hear CJBC at 3 pm. This was a treat because even though Rittman is within CJBC's secondary contour WKNR obliterated it in every radio I had.

Today I tried tuning in to CJBC and sure enough WKNR is stomping over it.

Radio-Locator.com

Radio Station Search Engine
radio-locator.com radio-locator.com

Does WKNR have permission to stomp over CJBC?

'
 
yub7h said:
In August I discovered that in Rittman I was able to hear CJBC at 3 pm. This was a treat because even though Rittman is within CJBC's secondary contour WKNR obliterated it in every radio I had.

Today I tried tuning in to CJBC and sure enough WKNR is stomping over it.

Radio-Locator.com

Radio Station Search Engine
radio-locator.com radio-locator.com

Does WKNR have permission to stomp over CJBC?

'
Click to expand...
First, where are you located?

Second, WKNR is on 850 and CJBC is on 860. The protected contour for each first adjacent channel station is somewhere well inside the red contour of each. I'm not up on the rules any more, and perhaps one of the experts (calling Schrodinger's Cat) can clarify. But neither station was intended to served areas in the "middle area" between them.

Finally, don't use radio-locator maps to determine actual real-world coverage. Those maps are nice "first views" but not precise.
 
KeithE4 said:
Yes. WKNR serves the Cleveland/Akron area. CJBC does not. The fact that CJBC is audible in NE Ohio is irrelevant.

Daytime pattern: WKNR-AM Radio Station Coverage Map
Nighttime pattern: WKNR-AM Radio Station Coverage Map
Click to expand...
And it is interesting to note that WKNR's night pattern protects Boston, but not Toronto... as well as Raleigh, Mexico and, of course, KOA in Denver.

The Day pattern, which reflects more recent power increases, protects some "newer" allocations that do not pre-date the original move of the former WJW from, IIIRC, Akron.
 
DavidEduardo said:
First, where are you located?

Rittman is located in Wayne county, south of Wadsworth and is about 25 miles SW of Akron. And although I am closer to Akron, I don't think I've ever heard CJBC....or maybe I have but since they broadcast in French I may not have known what station I was listening to.
Click to expand...
 
There is no reason to expect quality listening to CJBC at a location that looks to be well within the primary contour of the Cleveland station.
 
So the primary contour of CJBC covers Lake county Ohio. The primary contour of WKNR also covers lake county Ohio.

Does this mean that someone who lives in Lake county Ohio who listened to CJBC could have redress if WKNR was interfering?
 
yub7h said:
So the primary contour of CJBC covers Lake county Ohio. The primary contour of WKNR also covers lake county Ohio.
Click to expand...
The "primary" local service contour of the Canadian station barely hits Ashtabula. Remember, the radio-locator maps are not precise.
yub7h said:
Does this mean that someone who lives in Lake county Ohio who listened to CJBC could have redress if WKNR was interfering?
Click to expand...
No.

Your answer, if you want to listen to CJBC is to buy a more selective AM radio, such as the C. Crane units.
 
By international treaty, the signals of Canadian stations are not protected from interference on US soil, and vice versa.
 
fybush said:
By international treaty, the signals of Canadian stations are not protected from interference on US soil, and vice versa.
Click to expand...
Question, then: would both even be licensable were they in the same country?
 
DavidEduardo said:
Question, then: would both even be licensable were they in the same country?
Click to expand...
www.vermontpublic.org

Update: VPR's Montreal Reception

Update for 1/27/15: VPR learned this week that the CRTC has denied the application by Concordia Student Broadcasting Corporation for a new station at…
www.vermontpublic.org www.vermontpublic.org
" As long as the new CJLO station doesn’t interfere with WVPS on the US side of the border, it can legally operate in Canada."
 
yub7h said:
In August I discovered that in Rittman I was able to hear CJBC at 3 pm. This was a treat because even though Rittman is within CJBC's secondary contour WKNR obliterated it in every radio I had.

Today I tried tuning in to CJBC and sure enough WKNR is stomping over it.'
Click to expand...
Try it again and report back to the forum. But to re-iterate, AM 850 Cleveland is under no obligation to "protect" AM 860 in its home turf. All it can really do is be a "good neighbor" and narrow the audio bandwith down to 5 kilohertz (Remeber Jeff Littlejohn's directive at Clear Channel almost 20 years ago?). That also may allow reception of AM 840 (Louisville, Kentucky) at night. 🤷‍♂️
 
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So is WKNR's null to the northeast there to minimize interference with the co-channel in New York state (WYLF) or with CJBC or both? I guess it could serve both purposes simultaneously.
I know WKNR weakens relatively quickly when I'm headed to the in-laws to Conneaut. They're not nearly as strong as WTAM up in that area.
 
WKNR's null to the northeast it to minimize interference with WEEI Boston, a 50,000 watt station on 850. WYLF near Rochester NY is a Class D station with no protections. WKNR only has to make sure it doesn't interfere with CJBC north of the border, not within the U.S.

The original poster lives in a suburb of Cleveland, a few miles west of Akron, very much in WKNR's primary coverage area. He should have no expectation of hearing CJBC clearly. WKNR and CJBC are about 200 miles from each other in different countries. If he hears CJBC sometimes, good for him. He can practice his French then, since it is an Ici Radio-Canada affiliate. But WKNR is doing nothing wrong.

KYW 1060 is a 50,000 watt station in Philadelphia. WEPN 1050 is a 50,000 watt station in New York, only 90 miles away. They both protect each other. People in Philly should have no expectation of hearing WEPN. And people in NYC should have no expectation of hearing KYW.
 
Do Canada and the U.S. cooperate with each other in matters like this?
 
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Gregg. said:
WKNR's null to the northeast it to minimize interference with WEEI Boston, a 50,000 watt station on 850. WYLF near Rochester NY is a Class D station with no protections. WKNR only has to make sure it doesn't interfere with CJBC north of the border, not within the U.S.

The original poster lives in a suburb of Cleveland, a few miles west of Akron, very much in WKNR's primary coverage area. He should have no expectation of hearing CJBC clearly. WKNR and CJBC are about 200 miles from each other in different countries. If he hears CJBC sometimes, good for him. He can practice his French then, since it is an Ici Radio-Canada affiliate. But WKNR is doing nothing wrong.

KYW 1060 is a 50,000 watt station in Philadelphia. WEPN 1050 is a 50,000 watt station in New York, only 90 miles away. They both protect each other. People in Philly should have no expectation of hearing WEPN. And people in NYC should have no expectation of hearing KYW.
Click to expand...

I am a little surprised the daytime null is there for WEEI given that those groundwave signals normally would have no chance to touch each other. Nighttime, different story with potential skywave.
Appreciate the in-depth reply. I have heard CJBC quite well in Conneaut the few times I've tried, albeit subject to phasing at night much like CFZM.
 
DavidEduardo said:
And it is interesting to note that WKNR's night pattern protects Boston, but not Toronto... as well as Raleigh, Mexico and, of course, KOA in Denver.

The Day pattern, which reflects more recent power increases, protects some "newer" allocations that do not pre-date the original move of the former WJW from, IIIRC, Akron.
Click to expand...
WJW moved to Cleveland from Akron in 1943** and has transmitted from the same site in North Royalton ever since. The entire array was rebuilt in 1999 when the daytime pattern went to 50kW but the night pattern was replicated almost exactly at it had been originally, with a minor power downgrade from 5kW to 4,700 watts.

The problem is that the night pattern neatly covers Cuyahoga County, as it was designed to do, and worked perfectly pre-suburban sprawl. Go west of Westlake and the signal strength drops incredibly. In Elyria, KOA fights it out some nights. CJBC does come in at night but it’s not overwhelming WKNR at all. Again, as designed. (Of course, given how badly the 1220 plant has deteriorated in recent years, WKNR moving from 1220 to 850 can now be considered an upgrade.)

** WJW actually was birthed in Mansfield by John Weimer in 1927 and moved to Akron in 1931 as the de facto replacement for WFJC, which was merged with a time-share in Springfield, Ohio, to form WGAR.
 
Yes, 1220's site must have deteriorated dramatically over the years. Back in the 70s when they played music, I recall them having a much stronger signal.
 
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