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What would you do?
- Thread starter Cobra14
- Start date
Apologies, I don’t think I articulated what I was trying to say very well. I was just trying to state that the auxiliary sites are not putting out power levels that you see from 95.7 or 93.3. With that being said, other stations use the site with much lower power levels and don’t have problems. Warm puts out half of the power and still puts up some of the strongest numbers in the market.
Warm does not beat sister KQMV, or KZOK, KKWF, KISW, KSWD from WTM or KJEB and KJAQ from Cougar.
I think what you are saying, it's more the programming than the Power, as long as the signal covers the market where the PPM meters are,
But this thread is about the Aux sites for WTM on Cougar. Those Aux sites run 50KW, cover well, most people can't tell when they are on versus WTM except the HD is gone on some.
I learned back in the 80's that you could run a cougar station at 50KW versus 100KW and there was very little difference in the listening area that counts.
I think what you are saying, it's more the programming than the Power, as long as the signal covers the market where the PPM meters are,
But this thread is about the Aux sites for WTM on Cougar. Those Aux sites run 50KW, cover well, most people can't tell when they are on versus WTM except the HD is gone on some.
I learned back in the 80's that you could run a cougar station at 50KW versus 100KW and there was very little difference in the listening area that counts.
Out of curiosity, why is that true? On paper, you would definitely think that warm would sound worse around the market compared to some of the other stations that use Cougar, who also put out twice the power. I can only assume that at a certain height, the power output doesn’t matter too much as long as it’s sufficient enough to cover the terrain. Even in regions far from Cougar, warm doesn’t sound too bad. 104.5 doesn’t seem to have the power to make it that far (not that it matters too much, given it sounds acceptable around the areas where PPM meters would be anyway).
Produce that paper you mention. The issue is that non technical folks take huge liberties with technical issue they know nothing about. They make assumptions with out any working knowledge or experience in a technical/engineering field. This is where some of us get a little put off by some post about technical/engineering issues, from people that have no working knowledge of what's going on.
Have you actually compared KWRM, KJR-FM and KPLZ patterns? Yes KRWM covers a little less, but it's not half the coverage. Maybe 10% less, I didn't drill down that far but I did look. It did not make me think that KRWM was definitely worse. They may not perform as well in Olympia or Mount Vernon. They do hit the areas that count, Bellevue, Seattle, Tacoma, Bremerton and Everett. There could even be a debate that KRWM with lower power does not have as much reflected signal (Multipath) in certain areas.
50KW from Cougar covers the areas that count, you may not make it to Astoria Oregon, but that is not your target. You also still have decent building penetration at 50KW from Cougar. The difference between 100KW ERP and 50KW ERP from Cougar is only 3db. KRWM is 49KW so only 3db down from the 100KW stations (maybe not exactly 3db, but close enough). You also have to take antenna characteristics into account, the number of bays how it is mounted on the tower and pattern optimization. Compare KLSW and KNHC to see this in play, they are on the same tower but KLSW is at the top of the tower with a single bay. KNHC is running through the master antenna,
To answer the original poster's question, What Would I do? I would not sweat it. Especially if my Cougar aux was 50KW and could run HD. As I mentioned there was a WTM station that ran for several months from their Cougar back up and no one noticed or posted about it.
Have you actually compared KWRM, KJR-FM and KPLZ patterns? Yes KRWM covers a little less, but it's not half the coverage. Maybe 10% less, I didn't drill down that far but I did look. It did not make me think that KRWM was definitely worse. They may not perform as well in Olympia or Mount Vernon. They do hit the areas that count, Bellevue, Seattle, Tacoma, Bremerton and Everett. There could even be a debate that KRWM with lower power does not have as much reflected signal (Multipath) in certain areas.
50KW from Cougar covers the areas that count, you may not make it to Astoria Oregon, but that is not your target. You also still have decent building penetration at 50KW from Cougar. The difference between 100KW ERP and 50KW ERP from Cougar is only 3db. KRWM is 49KW so only 3db down from the 100KW stations (maybe not exactly 3db, but close enough). You also have to take antenna characteristics into account, the number of bays how it is mounted on the tower and pattern optimization. Compare KLSW and KNHC to see this in play, they are on the same tower but KLSW is at the top of the tower with a single bay. KNHC is running through the master antenna,
To answer the original poster's question, What Would I do? I would not sweat it. Especially if my Cougar aux was 50KW and could run HD. As I mentioned there was a WTM station that ran for several months from their Cougar back up and no one noticed or posted about it.
Further, many don't realize that the Seattle market is this, and only this (And coverage elsewhere is of little or no economic value):
| Island, WA |
| King, WA |
| Kitsap, WA |
| Pierce, WA |
| Snohomish, WA |
| Thurston, WA |
Attachments
Amen! Tell them brother!
Yep, like the ones who accuse stations of operating outside of technical bounds by relying on some Chinese SDR toy,
That's a great point. Years ago we had a major problem with KUBE (100kW ERP) from Cougar, and were forced to run almost an entire weekend with a 35W exciter plumbed into the main antenna. Guess how many complaints we received? None.
Also KNHC is a directional antenna from Cougar with two nulls: One toward Olympia, and the other toward Everett
My apologies, I wasn't trying to give out actual technical information. I do not claim to be an engineer, and admit that I don't have the expertise to give a proper answer to anyone looking for one. By "on paper," I am referring to the actual contours that are available on the FCC website. It's evident that the contour for 106.9 is inferior to some of the other stations that use Cougar, but it doesn't impact their ability to meet the needs and expectations of their listeners. Overall, I was trying to show that a backup facility on Cougar likely does everything that it needs to. It covers the market well and most people wouldn't even notice that anything is different. Someone who knows how to find the technical data can show that there is a big difference in the power output from 95.7/93.3 and 106.9, but someone who is ignorant to all of that information would probably think there's no difference at all.
Remember, those contours are "calculated" and used as the basis for protection issues. They are not real world, for which Longley-Rice is a much better.
RabbitEars.Info is best for that. Note that the page says "TV Query" but it is really FM at that URL.
The key here is "what is the market?" If someone is worrying about the signal in Blaine, they are not being realistic.
There might be handful of distant listeners who notice a difference when the main site goes off the air and the backup site replaces it, but those listeners don't matter. I'd say most broadcasting companies in Seattle would be thrilled to have a backup site on Cougar (regardless of if they normally call Tiger Mountain home, or have a primary site nearby on Cougar). Circling back to the original question: it works fine in the areas that matter, and probably works pretty well in the areas that don't too.
I think the biggest area within the market I would notice a coverage difference from West Tiger vs. Cougar would be in downtown Everett, and that would be if I happened to be going up that way while a backup site was on. West Tiger has no multipath through Everett, while Cougar gets really noisy through downtown. Even so, that area doesn't seem to matter. The only reason I brought up 104.5 is because that signal is at a lot lower power than the aux sites are, yet it seems to be an acceptable signal. Could it use a few thousand more watts? Sure, but it's almost at a point now where the programming matters more than the signal quality, and that's at a much lower power than the backups for the Tiger signals.
The big difference on the power out 100KW versus 50KW (and I do know where to find that) is not as big of a difference on the coverage map. The coverage contour does not drop by 50% when going from 100KW to 50KW.
In post #18 you made the incorrect assumption that the Aux sites at Cougar for WTM were 6.7KW when in fact they are 50KW. I was just clarifying that they are 50KW. I guess 6.7KW is better than being off the air, but 50KW is much better and gives a full market backup with better building penetration.
If 104.5 seems to have less multipath in Everette that could be because there is less power being reflected to create multipath versus the higher power station on Cougar that have more power to reflect in multipath areas.
I wouldn't say that someone is ignorant, they are just un educated to the situation.
That makes sense. I can see why lower power levels might result in poor building penetration. At the same time, it’s interesting to see the impact that multipath could have on a station that is supposed to (again, on paper) have one of the best signals in the market.
After a limited amount of research, I found that KRWM’s auxiliary site is licensed to operate at 11kw, while KCMS’s auxiliary site is licensed to operate at 14kw (thus explaining why I lumped them in with 104.5). You are absolutely correct, other stations are licensed at higher power levels for their auxiliary sites and the two examples I looked at are anomalies. Going back and doing a bit more research, it looks like there are a few Tiger stations that use an aux site powered anywhere from 10kw to 20kw, but most are at 50.
I’d make the assumption that the vast majority of people don’t know where the broadcast towers for their favourite radio stations are. For that reason, as long as they’re getting a usable signals, they probably don’t think twice.
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Back in the 90's, there was a debate as to whether building penetration was a concern, or not. The rationale was that office workers need the ability to hear the station via portable radios, walkman's, whatever. The practical result was that didn't happen in any reasonable number. High-rise offices with open cubicle spaces didn't allow such radio listening. Businesses playing the radio didn't seem to have trouble hearing particularly FM stations. Many would put up or use an outdoor TV/FM antenna as required.
Nope, nor do they care.
This is true. For years, I thought the transmitters had to be located on the roof of the station's studio building. That had my 10 year old mind confused, because 95.7 kept saying live from the shores of Eliot Bey, but in downtown Edmonds, the signal was just as bad as the others. If you're coming from Eliot Bay, your signal should be loud and clear down there. Turns out as we know, that's only where the studio is and has been for 20 years or more, but the transmitter is on Cougar, where it also has been for at least the same amount of time.
I think the common misconception is that the tower is located wherever the studio is. Me, being somewhat of a geeky 12 year old kid discovered Radio Locator in 2007, and then figured out where the tower sites really were located.
I think a surprising number of people realize that the red towers behind the space needle are for some of the local TV stations, but I’m sure that very few (if any) are aware of Tiger or Cougar. Seattle is unique, because most of the telecommunications equipment is in uninhabitable areas that most people never think about.
Ironically, I had a listener call me one time to ask where the tower site for the radio station I was working for was located. When I told her, she seemed somewhat surprised, as she thought our somewhat recognizable site was for cell phones. Go figure.
That's pretty funny. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a cell tower at your station's site. To me, existing radio towers would be logical sites for cell towers, though you're likely to need many more than existing communications services can provide. I'm not entirely sure how the TV sites became common knowledge in the market, but it wouldn't surprise me if people assume the radio stations come from those towers as well. Does KUOW broadcast from one of those towers? If not, how do the TV OTA signals compare to 94.9?
KUOW does pretty well from their location on top of Capitol Hill. Most of the older locals seem to know what those towers are for, but that probably doesn’t translate to the more recent arrivals.
I’ll let the professionals speak for the viability of cell phone services from a radio transmissions site. I don’t think it would work all that well, though. Cell towers typically need to be closer to the population density to compensate for the fact that your small mobile device needs to communicate with a tower. It doesn’t seem like it would be able to overcome the distance needed to make that setup work.
It depends. One of my stations, a 100kW Full class C used to have a cell/PCS renting the lower 200' of the tower. As a station owner, we used to appreciate that monthly rent.
Generally, cell/PCS providers stay clear of TV or FM sites with a high concentration of RF, because it requires lots of filters to keep high power FM or DTV signals from overloading the cell/PCS system.
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