Car Makes & Models with No AM Band.

[Mark Roberts]

It certainly seems like the future holds little for "ownership". We now rent our software. In my area where solar is productive and very common, most of the companies who install have plans where they lease the solar back to you while still saving you on energy. In mid-price and luxury cars, most are now leased.

I read an analysis in the Globe and Mail today that, for an electric car, leasing makes more sense than buying, because of the need to replace the battery in roughly 8 years after the car is built. That battery replacement is an expensive proposition.

Counterbalancing this trend, keep an eye on the "right to repair" movement that's been gaining traction in mid-America. It's one of those rare issues that has bipartisan agreement in those parts, with farm implement companies fighting like hell against it but, at most, only able to slow it down. In many of these states, even with diminished rural populations, you still cross farmers at your own peril!

And radio is now moving to subscription services vs. ad supported ones, again with monthly payments.

This is a reincarnation of the old "rent to own" where those with no credit could get TVs and furniture for about 4 times what they were worth!

Actually these still exist in rural parts of Midwestern states. The owner of one such chain in northern Missouri used the profits from his business to build an FM station in his hometown (now a C2!), and then to buy other AM and FM stations in northern and east-central Missouri. They're all run on a shoestring. I'm told that this guy actually wants to retire and sell the stations, but the next generation of his family isn't interested, and the market for buying radio stations in those parts of the state is weak.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

I read an analysis in the Globe and Mail today that, for an electric car, leasing makes more sense than buying, because of the need to replace the battery in roughly 8 years after the car is built. That battery replacement is an expensive proposition.

I think "roughly 8 years" replacement cycle is unlikely for the ordinary driver who drives 10-15 thousand miles a year.
In laboratory conditions, battery packs have been measured maintaining 80% of their original capacity after 1600 charge/discharge cycles - which would equate to 300,000 miles or so. (Cite: Preger, et al., Journal of the Electrochemical Society, 2021),

Assuming that lab data holds up in the real world, that would put EV battery life spans on par with gas cars, where 90% of gas cars are junked before 250,000 miles.

But for me, if I'm getting an electric car, its going to be a lease. There are certain tax advantages to leases (the eligibility criteria are different). And we don't really know yet which manufacturers have their stuff together. Who is Fiat and who is Toyota when it comes to EVs?

Actually these still exist in rural parts of Midwestern states. The owner of one such chain in northern Missouri used the profits from his business to build an FM station in his hometown (now a C2!), and then to buy other AM and FM stations in northern and east-central Missouri.

I think these rent to own businesses still exist everywhere. For that matter, most places that aren't explicitly rent-to-own will finance you furniture or appliances. Home Depot will finance a refrigerator, for example.

 

[Mark Roberts]

I think these rent to own businesses still exist everywhere. For that matter, most places that aren't explicitly rent-to-own will finance you furniture or appliances. Home Depot will finance a refrigerator, for example.

Most likely, though, those are straight credit financing arrangements through a bank such as Synchrony. (The Dillard's department store chain used to have its own bank for the purpose.) The rent-to-own places are more lenient about credit because that loan is collateralized with the furniture or TV. The owner can always get them back if too many payments are missed.

 

[Kelly A]

Here's a fun fact I just learned. In model year 2023 and newer Tesla cars, Bluetooth connectivity to your phone is only included as a free, multi-year trial. After that, it costs $10 a month. Tesla’s “unlimited” connectivity plan, including navigation, now expires after eight yet

You're confusing Bluetooth connectivity from one's smartphone, which is free on Tesla's, with their Premium Data Package, which in the past was included with the purchase. Premium allows for streaming and other data without pairing to your smartphone.

So maybe the EV revolution will be good for radio. FM radio, that is.

No shot.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

You're confusing Bluetooth connectivity from one's smartphone, which is free on Tesla's, with their Premium Data Package, which in the past was included with the purchase. Premium allows for streaming and other data without pairing to your smartphone.

Nope. I'm talking about Tesla's "standard connectivity" subscription, which includes pairing to one's phone.

What you say was true until model year 2023 -- "standard connectivity" was included for life.

 

[Kelly A]

Nope. I'm talking about Tesla's "standard connectivity" subscription, which includes pairing to one's phone.

What you say was true until model year 2023 -- "standard connectivity" was included for life.

From the 2023 Tesla Support Site:

"Connectivity​

Connectivity is an important part of all Tesla vehicles, further enhancing the driving experience by providing access to features that require data usage — including streaming music and media, live traffic visualization and more.
All Tesla vehicles come with access to Standard Connectivity. Standard Connectivity is included in your vehicle, at no additional cost, for eight years beginning on the first day your vehicle was delivered as new by Tesla or the first day it is put into service (for example, used as a demonstrator or service vehicle), whichever comes first. If you are purchasing a used vehicle, you will be notified of how long your vehicle will include access to Standard Connectivity. With Standard Connectivity, you have access to most connectivity features over Wi-Fi, in addition to basic maps and navigation and music streaming over Bluetooth®.
Premium Connectivity provides the ability to access all connectivity features over cellular, in addition to Wi-Fi, for the most intuitive and engaging ownership experience. Premium Connectivity is currently available as a monthly subscription of $9.99 plus applicable tax or as an annual subscription of $99 plus applicable tax and can be purchased at any time from your vehicle touchscreen or the Tesla app. Orders of Model S, Model X, Model Y and Model 3 will receive a Premium Connectivity trial at delivery.
If you own a Tesla vehicle for personal use, you can subscribe to Premium Connectivity from your vehicle touchscreen or the Tesla app. If you are driving a company vehicle, contact your vehicle provider for more information."

 

[PTBoardOp94]

Wow, it's not often in debate that someone does the legwork for me (even though I provided a source in my first post)! Thanks for proving my point beyond a doubt with the information directly from the manufacturer!

Yes, they buried it a bit, as companies tend to do when they do something anti-consumer. I'll distill out the specific relevant bits:

Standard Connectivity is included in your vehicle, at no additional cost, for eight years beginning on the first day your vehicle was delivered as new by Tesla or the first day it is put into service (for example, used as a demonstrator or service vehicle), whichever comes first. If you are purchasing a used vehicle, you will be notified of how long your vehicle will include access to Standard Connectivity. With Standard Connectivity, you have access to most connectivity features over Wi-Fi, in addition to basic maps and navigation and music streaming over Bluetooth®.

 

[Kelly A]

Wow, it's not often in debate that someone does the legwork for me (even though I provided a source in my first post)! Thanks for proving my point beyond a doubt with the information directly from the manufacturer!

Yes, they buried it a bit, as companies tend to do when they do something anti-consumer. I'll distill out the specific relevant bits:

What are you talking about? Bluetooth connectivity to your smartphone as part of the standard package is free, as in no subscription for eight (8) years. Only the Premium package has a subscription charge.
Your claim that Bluetooth starting in 2023 is via subscription only is inaccurate.

 

[michael hagerty]

I read an analysis in the Globe and Mail today that, for an electric car, leasing makes more sense than buying, because of the need to replace the battery in roughly 8 years after the car is built. That battery replacement is an expensive proposition.

We need to address this, because it's simply not accurate.

Eight years is the federally-mandated (US) warranty period for EV batteries. In California, it's ten years.

Tesla has a policy where it will replace any battery that falls below 70% capacity during that warranty period free of charge.

The majority of 2012 Tesla Model S vehicles are still on their original batteries.

Tesla claims 88 percent battery capacity after 200,000 miles (13.3 years at the national average 15,000 miles per year driven). I'd be skeptical of manufacturer claims, but independent tests and real-world data suggests that's accurate.

In fact, Tesla owners who've put 300,000 miles on their vehicles report an average of 80% battery capacity.

There's reason to believe most EV batteries in mass-production cars will do as well.

 

[Kelly A]

We need to address this, because it's simply not accurate.

Eight years is the federally-mandated (US) warranty period for EV batteries. In California, it's ten years.

Tesla has a policy where it will replace any battery that falls below 70% capacity during that warranty period free of charge.

The majority of 2012 Tesla Model S vehicles are still on their original batteries.

Tesla claims 88 percent battery capacity after 200,000 miles (13.3 years at the national average 15,000 miles per year driven). I'd be skeptical of manufacturer claims, but independent tests and real-world data suggests that's accurate.

In fact, Tesla owners who've put 300,000 miles on their vehicles report an average of 80% battery capacity.

There's reason to believe most EV batteries in mass-production cars will do as well.

Totally agree. Much of the anti-EV rhetoric about the burden pointing toward EV battery life was based on the early 2010-2012 Nissan Leaf batteries. Sure, those early batteries were/are expensive to replace, but as you pointed out, battery technology especially used by Tesla, has eliminated most of those problems.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

What are you talking about? Bluetooth connectivity to your smartphone as part of the standard package is free, as in no subscription for eight (8) years.

Finally, someone puts it concisely.

"Free for 8 years" is a subscription.

 

[Kelly A]

Finally, someone puts it concisely.

"Free for 8 years" is a subscription.

Free means no cost for the standard bluetooth plan during the first eight years of ownership. I realize you're trying to tweak the verbiage to save your point, but as shown, there is no subscription for a standard plan during the average ownership period.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

No tweaking here. I used the phrase "free, multi-year trial" in my post yesterday. That remains an accurate description, and your initial confusion does not change that.

 

[Kelly A]

No tweaking here. I used the phrase "free, multi-year trial" in my post yesterday. That remains an accurate description, and your initial confusion does not change that.

I'm not the one confused. You were attempting to create displaced rhetoric that using Bluetooth via a phone in Tesla's after 2023 will cost the owner money via a subscription charge. I pointed out that the 'Standard' data package is actually no charge, but what you were talking about is the 'Premium' data package.

 

[wadio]

Who's on first? ⚾ 😀

 

[cc333]

@PTBoardOp94, @Kelly A Let me see if I understand:

PTBoardOp94 claims that Bluetooth connectivity to one's phone is included free in the Standard package for 8 years from time of purchase (or when the feature was first used, whichever is first), and after that period, one must pay a monthly subscription fee to continue using that connectivity. Correct? This would seem to be backed up almost verbatim by the quote from Tesla's support site, so I don't think anyone's debating this.

The main disagreement, it seems, is whether the first 8 years of free Standard connectivity constitutes a subscription. I would argue, based on what I'm reading, that it does count as part of a subscription, it's just simply that the first 8 years worth of payments is subsidized and included in the purchase price of the car, and one can opt to either continue paying the fee for access to any Standard package features or not. Hence "free, multi-year trial," which I don't think is technically fully accurate. However, in practice, what one gets is effectively equivalent to an 8 year trial, so strictly speaking, it's not wrong to call it a trial vs. a subscription (in fact, it seems to be a confusing combination of both).

In other words, I think you're both right, but it's slightly complicated.

Does that help?

c

 

[cc333]

@Theater of My Mind I see you deleted your post, but I agree nevertheless (I read it before it got deleted).

No Teslas for me!

c

 

[michael hagerty]

Totally agree. Much of the anti-EV rhetoric about the burden pointing toward EV battery life was based on the early 2010-2012 Nissan Leaf batteries. Sure, those early batteries were/are expensive to replace, but as you pointed out, battery technology especially used by Tesla, has eliminated most of those problems.

The knock on the Prius hybrid when it started to take off was "What are you gonna do in seven years when the battery dies?" At that time, battery pack replacement was estimated at $8,000.

The first Priuses (Prii?) are now 22 years old...I see at least one a week in traffic here in Sacramento, and some cursory research indicates more than a few are still running on the original battery pack. Replacements via Toyota are down to about $3,000 and remanufactured units can be less than half that.

 

[Mikey Radio]

The knock on the Prius hybrid when it started to take off was "What are you gonna do in seven years when the battery dies?" At that time, battery pack replacement was estimated at $8,000.

The first Priuses (Prii?) are now 22 years old...I see at least one a week in traffic here in Sacramento, and some cursory research indicates more than a few are still running on the original battery pack. Replacements via Toyota are down to about $3,000 and remanufactured units can be less than half that.

I think it's a situation where the folks that are the most vocal in their adamant dislike for things like EVs are at times (not always) also the least educated about them. I see anti-EV memes in my FB feed occasionally from some friends who are on the far right of the political spectrum, and some of the claims they make and "facts" they offer (complete with photos that are either doctored or out of context) are downright laughable. As you state about the batteries in your post above, a lot of their strongest anti-EV "arguments" are based on older technologies from when the EV and related battery markets were more or less in their infancy.

Occasionally when my dad and I talk, he'll take a jab at EVs or tell me a funny story about EVs that he'd heard via gossip at their local coffee shop. My response is usually "Dad, that technology is coming. Better get used to it, and remember that most all technologies we use today had some bumps when they were first brought to market and had strong opposition from at least some at the beginning as well". Then again, every time it gets extremely cold and snows up north, he also claims (mostly jokingly) this must be proving all the global warming claimants are wrong.

 

[Kelly A]

No Teslas for me!

You're too old for something as modern as a Tesla anyway.