I don't understand this argument. Why/how would AM have any more listeners today than it currently has, or a different demographic than it normally attracts, simply because it had been "made digital"? The band is inferior in many ways and if it's all conservative talk, ethnic and religious programming and some sports stations here and there, it's not going to suddenly attract more listeners or keep others from leaving - especially if they need to buy new digital AM radios. Also, again, AM isn't just competing against FM. AM stations and OTA broadcasters in general are competing against many other outlets for music, spoken word and media. Podcasts, apps, streaming, satellite delivery, content that's stored on one's device for listening anytime/anywhere, internet-only stations that fill certain niches and tastes - the list goes on.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
What happened and why is it still happening?
- Thread starter alok
- Start date
- Status
But that would mean/have meant replacement of existing radios, and a very expensive equipment replacement for AM station owners. One that would probably have driven 60% of the AM stations out of business. Also, the majority of consumers stopped actively purchasing radios twenty years ago.
Really? What spectrum would have been given to AM broadcasters? And what about consumers needing to replace their radios to include an expanded band?
Who's had ample time to see the train coming, that they could have moved off the tracks? How is their apathy and lack of vision considered unfair?
Again, consumers aren't interested in buying new radios. They use their smartphones for everything now.
It also requires the laws of physics to be changed...
AM isn’t mistreated. It’s becoming obsolete. That happens to all kinds of things. And it’s time we stop trying to prop up something that fewer and fewer people want for some imagined hypothetical scenario that the vast majority of people will not encounter.
This is the way. It's not just a problem here in the US either. Canada has been migrating its AM's to FM for close to 20 years now. Those that couldn’t move are being shut down. Radioinsight is reporting Bell Media is shutting down or divesting almost all of its remaining AM's.
Ah, watching season 2 of The Mandalorian?
Six AMs shut down, three being sold. Collateral damage is shortwave station CFVP 6030 in Calgary, which presumably is closing along with parent CKMX 1060.
Edit to add: Checking online SDRs in Alberta, both CKMX and CFVP are running an announcement loop about the shutdown.
That leaves CFRX 6070 in Toronto as Canada’s last shortwave broadcast station, rebroadcasting CFRB 1010.
Last edited:
To all above . . . and beyond,
My point is, give AM a NEW BAND, let it become FM modulation on its new band . . . forget digital if that satisfies you. Do away with the 100 year old AM modulation scheme.
Is that better for you all?
I know I didn't say this originally. I wanted AM & FM to be ALL DIGITAL on NEW BAND for AM & FM but I'll go with just a NEW BAND for AM radio only and make it FM modulation.
But to do this AM needs a NEW BAND and this is where AM has been mistreated.
And I believe that a radio with a NEW BAND on it will sell as people realize that there is something new on that " as some of you say " old fashion radio".
Car makers will love it, it'll be on your next new car radio.
People that listen to foreign language programming on " 100 year old AM " can listen to that programming on a new FM ( forget digital ) band from their favorite former AM station.
Or do we get back to the fact that there are some that don't want more competition, like present FM broadcasters, cell phone makers, etc.
Also back to cell signals, use a bigger treat then a tornado, say a hurricane with a wider path of destruction, cell towers out and down and the cell phone / internet network at your house is out. As I may have said before if you got a battery operated radio you'll pick up that RADIO station say 25 or maybe 50 miles away hopefully giving vital info.
Are maybe a forest fire, (I been in them) poles & lines are burned down.
Your cell phone & Internet will be useless until you get your connections back. As before it could take days or weeks.
Utility poles down in area, maybe damaged underground wiring , yes maybe even a downed radio or TV tower, but that radio can pick up a signal slightly beyond the storm damaged area with vital info for you.
I don't think your cell phone will receive very far signals.
Come on your guys admit it . . . a cell phone is great but having RADIO (AM now on a NEW BAND with FM modulation) and "old -fashion" present FM stations available would be nice, very nice. Remember more proper info is better than less. So you'll have the present FM stations . . . the now old AM broadcasters on a new FM band - both able to receive on that wonderful new radio you purchased for home or in your new car.
Maybe the radio maker will include a way to play games (store games in it) so some of you think you have a cell phone!
Al
My point is, give AM a NEW BAND, let it become FM modulation on its new band . . . forget digital if that satisfies you. Do away with the 100 year old AM modulation scheme.
Is that better for you all?
I know I didn't say this originally. I wanted AM & FM to be ALL DIGITAL on NEW BAND for AM & FM but I'll go with just a NEW BAND for AM radio only and make it FM modulation.
But to do this AM needs a NEW BAND and this is where AM has been mistreated.
And I believe that a radio with a NEW BAND on it will sell as people realize that there is something new on that " as some of you say " old fashion radio".
Car makers will love it, it'll be on your next new car radio.
People that listen to foreign language programming on " 100 year old AM " can listen to that programming on a new FM ( forget digital ) band from their favorite former AM station.
Or do we get back to the fact that there are some that don't want more competition, like present FM broadcasters, cell phone makers, etc.
Also back to cell signals, use a bigger treat then a tornado, say a hurricane with a wider path of destruction, cell towers out and down and the cell phone / internet network at your house is out. As I may have said before if you got a battery operated radio you'll pick up that RADIO station say 25 or maybe 50 miles away hopefully giving vital info.
Are maybe a forest fire, (I been in them) poles & lines are burned down.
Your cell phone & Internet will be useless until you get your connections back. As before it could take days or weeks.
Utility poles down in area, maybe damaged underground wiring , yes maybe even a downed radio or TV tower, but that radio can pick up a signal slightly beyond the storm damaged area with vital info for you.
I don't think your cell phone will receive very far signals.
Come on your guys admit it . . . a cell phone is great but having RADIO (AM now on a NEW BAND with FM modulation) and "old -fashion" present FM stations available would be nice, very nice. Remember more proper info is better than less. So you'll have the present FM stations . . . the now old AM broadcasters on a new FM band - both able to receive on that wonderful new radio you purchased for home or in your new car.
Maybe the radio maker will include a way to play games (store games in it) so some of you think you have a cell phone!
Al
Shut your pieholeTo all above . . . and beyond,
My point is, give AM a NEW BAND, let it become FM modulation on its new band . . . forget digital if that satisfies you. Do away with the 100 year old AM modulation scheme.
Is that better for you all?
I know I didn't say this originally. I wanted AM & FM to be ALL DIGITAL on NEW BAND for AM & FM but I'll go with just a NEW BAND for AM radio only and make it FM modulation.
But to do this AM needs a NEW BAND and this is where AM has been mistreated.
And I believe that a radio with a NEW BAND on it will sell as people realize that there is something new on that " as some of you say " old fashion radio".
Car makers will love it, it'll be on your next new car radio.
People that listen to foreign language programming on " 100 year old AM " can listen to that programming on a new FM ( forget digital ) band from their favorite former AM station.
Or do we get back to the fact that there are some that don't want more competition, like present FM broadcasters, cell phone makers, etc.
Also back to cell signals, use a bigger treat then a tornado, say a hurricane with a wider path of destruction, cell towers out and down and the cell phone / internet network at your house is out. As I may have said before if you got a battery operated radio you'll pick up that RADIO station say 25 or maybe 50 miles away hopefully giving vital info.
Are maybe a forest fire, (I been in them) poles & lines are burned down.
Your cell phone & Internet will be useless until you get your connections back. As before it could take days or weeks.
Utility poles down in area, maybe damaged underground wiring , yes maybe even a downed radio or TV tower, but that radio can pick up a signal slightly beyond the storm damaged area with vital info for you.
I don't think your cell phone will receive very far signals.
Come on your guys admit it . . . a cell phone is great but having RADIO (AM now on a NEW BAND with FM modulation) and "old -fashion" present FM stations available would be nice, very nice. Remember more proper info is better than less. So you'll have the present FM stations . . . the now old AM broadcasters on a new FM band - both able to receive on that wonderful new radio you purchased for home or in your new car.
Maybe the radio maker will include a way to play games (store games in it) so some of you think you have a cell phone!
Al
Not going to happen
Doesn't matter, the same negative points apply. Creating an expanded FM band to accommodate AM stations would require new radios, and consumers to purchase new radios. It took over 20 years for listeners to notice additional FM HD stations. That's accounting for 2O% of the people buying vehicles with HD radio capability. If one goes on that history, that would mean all those AM-moved-to-expanded band FM broadcasters would be on an island with no listeners for 20 years? Not a survivable scenario.
To what benefit of anyone?
Nope, you're still way off base.
How so? By becoming old technology? AM broadcasters have had plenty of time to look at other options.
As already mentioned; consumer don't buy radios, they buy smartphones.
Not if consumers would rather have streaming, or connectivity to their phones.
Got it. No need to keep repeating your incorrect assumptions.
Going on a similar what-if jag; what if you got bit by a shark in your driveway? What if you got struck by a meteor? What if the wide swath of your mega-storm took out those broadcast stations? What if no staff could get to those stations
Great for who? When most consumers no longer have portable, battery powered radios?
So when are you going to start with proper info?
They call them consumer electronics manufacturers. They don't make radios anymore.
Where would you like this to happen? The spectrum has been assigned. There are no empty bands.
There are people who do this for a living. It's their job to oversee spectrum use. You're not one of those people.
No comments, except my piehole is shut (well after this) on this subject. . . giving you guys a chance to shut yours . . . but you radio guys lost out on a great thing had radio fought harder back in 2000 to go digital, YES DIGITAL ON A NEW BAND, at least for AM.
What is on AM today deserves good quality audio like any other programming, but nope there was not a hard enough fight by your radio bosses back when it mattered.
I forget who constantly brought this up about radio manufactures. You are correct, no major consumer electronics company are making radios today because radio gave up on itself. They'd make radios today if there was a need to, but nope there isn't, this thanks to radio station owners (AM & FM), the FCC, the NAB, selfish companies, etc. that did not try hard to help AM radio get a new band when it mattered rather than band-aid fixes that are being tried today.
Good thing auto makers still make radios . . . that almost came to an end recently.
Glad I got to be part of it, an analog to digital changeover, working in TV, it was a fun.
Go ahead, I know some of you are just waiting to "comment". Remember shut your piehole afterwards, I'll give you the last word . . . but please make it quick we got to go to a commercial break!
Still appreciate you all, BYE - BYE.
Al
What is on AM today deserves good quality audio like any other programming, but nope there was not a hard enough fight by your radio bosses back when it mattered.
I forget who constantly brought this up about radio manufactures. You are correct, no major consumer electronics company are making radios today because radio gave up on itself. They'd make radios today if there was a need to, but nope there isn't, this thanks to radio station owners (AM & FM), the FCC, the NAB, selfish companies, etc. that did not try hard to help AM radio get a new band when it mattered rather than band-aid fixes that are being tried today.
Good thing auto makers still make radios . . . that almost came to an end recently.
Glad I got to be part of it, an analog to digital changeover, working in TV, it was a fun.
Go ahead, I know some of you are just waiting to "comment". Remember shut your piehole afterwards, I'll give you the last word . . . but please make it quick we got to go to a commercial break!
Still appreciate you all, BYE - BYE.
Al
Last edited:
"They" are not making radios for the US market, or for Mexico or Burkina Faso or Ecuador or Pakistan. People are increasingly wanting to have a multi-purpose device, and that is the cellular phone with texting, streaming, video, the Internet and even games and an appointment calendar.
No. Consumers moved on to something newer.
This is a word-wide issue. AM is pretty much dead except a couple of nations like Cuba, India (with DRM) and China. Don't blame American broadcasters for the lack of interest, world wide, in AM radio or new radio devices. The USA has less than 5% of world population so it holds relatively little weight in product design and offerings.
No, they almost eliminated AM From car radios. Which they are doing in car radios in the rest of the world. Many nations no longer have any AM stations.
Last edited:
Just give the horse-drawn buggies a new road and people will come flocking back to see what “original” horsepower has to offer.
(Disclaimer: Amish country not included in this plan😉)
(Disclaimer: Amish country not included in this plan😉)
Huh? Manufacturers don't make products "if there is a need." They make products if there is profit. And there's more profit in making phones and computers. Have you ever attended the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas? Of course not. If you had, you'd have a better understanding how this works. Unless radio owners got back into electronics manufacturing, there was nothing they could do to change how Chinese electronics companies work. Even XM with their huge budgets discovered how impossible it is to deal with China over radios.
So no, it's not about radio "giving up on itself." Bang your head against the wall for 20 years and we'll see how you do. You can't even take a little criticism on a message board, so you say 'BYE-BYE.' Does that mean you're giving up on yourself?
Michael Hagerty says that portable AM-FM radios can be purchased online at Amazon, Best Buy, Target, Harbor Freight, and a bunch of other places that I forgot. But, I checked out the places I remember that he said, and it is true. Those places do offer portable radios for sale.
This below is a little off-topic, but it's really interesting, at least to me. It's a concrete example of how far-reaching an AM signal is on a big station. It reaches a lot farther than a cell phone signal. In a big earthquake or a big forest fire ( we've had some huge forest fires in recent years, the cell phone towers in the immediate area were burning, but the AM signal still came through.
Now, this below, is super interesting. It's a tour of the transmitter plant for KCBS 740 AM. They are located in Novato, about 30 miles away from me, across the Golden Gate Bridge in the little town of Novato. From the video, you can see that they have 4 towers in a huge flat field. The towers might fall down during a severe earthquake. But there's not enough vegetation in the field to cause them to burn down.
This is why our local CERT and emergency services strongly recommend than in our community, we each keep a "go pack" , stocked with a portable radio and extra batteries, ready to evacuate at any time. We have signs posted on all our streets, indicating the number of the evacuation area we are in, and where we are supposed to gather for preliminary evacuation.
More below.
This below is a little off-topic, but it's really interesting, at least to me. It's a concrete example of how far-reaching an AM signal is on a big station. It reaches a lot farther than a cell phone signal. In a big earthquake or a big forest fire ( we've had some huge forest fires in recent years, the cell phone towers in the immediate area were burning, but the AM signal still came through.
Now, this below, is super interesting. It's a tour of the transmitter plant for KCBS 740 AM. They are located in Novato, about 30 miles away from me, across the Golden Gate Bridge in the little town of Novato. From the video, you can see that they have 4 towers in a huge flat field. The towers might fall down during a severe earthquake. But there's not enough vegetation in the field to cause them to burn down.
This is why our local CERT and emergency services strongly recommend than in our community, we each keep a "go pack" , stocked with a portable radio and extra batteries, ready to evacuate at any time. We have signs posted on all our streets, indicating the number of the evacuation area we are in, and where we are supposed to gather for preliminary evacuation.
More below.
This video was done by one of the chief engineers, Dave Whitfield, for KCBS-AM, KFRC 106.9, and KLLS ( Radio Alice). These are all Audacy stations. He made a video of each piece of equipment at the transmitter.
What I learned: Their main transmitter is a 50,000 watt Harris DX-50, which was installed in 1990 and has run pretty much continually ever since. Their back-up transmitter is a Nautel XR-12, a 12,500 watt transmitter. Dave says they are the best transmitters he has worked with, except in the "old days", when he had a Bauer 707.
I learned about phasors. The phasor controls the direction of the signal that the antenna emits. He shows the controls for this equipment.
I learned that according to Dave, the most important piece of equipment at a transmitter site, is the Nielsen encoder, which measures the ratings. It is built into their huge control panels.
Dave says that northern California is one of the worst FM signal markets in the nation, due to the terrain. That is what I have been trying to say all along. In the hills where I am, FM fades in and out.
To me, this looks like a very clean, modern, well-organized most impressive set-up. The KCBS signal at 740 has been known to reach the Hawaiian Islands at night.
What I learned: Their main transmitter is a 50,000 watt Harris DX-50, which was installed in 1990 and has run pretty much continually ever since. Their back-up transmitter is a Nautel XR-12, a 12,500 watt transmitter. Dave says they are the best transmitters he has worked with, except in the "old days", when he had a Bauer 707.
I learned about phasors. The phasor controls the direction of the signal that the antenna emits. He shows the controls for this equipment.
I learned that according to Dave, the most important piece of equipment at a transmitter site, is the Nielsen encoder, which measures the ratings. It is built into their huge control panels.
Dave says that northern California is one of the worst FM signal markets in the nation, due to the terrain. That is what I have been trying to say all along. In the hills where I am, FM fades in and out.
To me, this looks like a very clean, modern, well-organized most impressive set-up. The KCBS signal at 740 has been known to reach the Hawaiian Islands at night.
That's really not the point. You can buy anything online if you look for it. But you have to look for it.
This is a screen shot of the panel which controls the switching pathways from daytime to nighttime power. He explains the light patterns.
In areas of the nation where there are so many natural disasters, like Calif., AM is still useful in emergencies, because the signal is so far ranging.
( If you live in the midwest or the east, then AM seems redundant and superfluous, because everyone is going to use a cellphone, especially if radio receivers are increasingly eliminated in new cars).
So posters on this board will become impatient with people who believe that AM is useful in emergencies. At any rate, I learned a lot of fascinating information. Thank you all for bearing with me. -- Daryl
In areas of the nation where there are so many natural disasters, like Calif., AM is still useful in emergencies, because the signal is so far ranging.
( If you live in the midwest or the east, then AM seems redundant and superfluous, because everyone is going to use a cellphone, especially if radio receivers are increasingly eliminated in new cars).
So posters on this board will become impatient with people who believe that AM is useful in emergencies. At any rate, I learned a lot of fascinating information. Thank you all for bearing with me. -- Daryl
Attachments
The main issue is not the survival of a transmitter site... it is the ability to get content to any sites still able to be on the air. And the ability of the staff of such stations to obtain and broadcast such information.
Even the government system is flawed, but it knows that if it uses every available content provider, much of the population will have some kind of source.
Part of the issue is that in many emergencies radio, TV, government sources are not always available to do anything when a train full of poison derails at 2AM when everyone in the market and elsewhere are asleep.
- Status